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Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne

View Poll Results: Which player was better?
Marcel Dionne 50 58.14%
Teemu Selanne 36 41.86%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-30-2012, 11:49 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright, I was always a big Teemu fan and I know he was a great player on his own comparable to some very great names. But I think we are losing the fact that Simmer was literally a nobody until he teamed up with Dionne. That has to go for something. The guy was a first team all-star two years in a row. We've seen instances with players when they were up and comers and when they hit their stride they exploded, but with Simmer he just went from a guy who had 25 points in 83 career games to a star.
I don't really know Simmer's story before he went to the Kings. It seems like he was a promising player, maybe not destined to be a star, but not a "cup of coffee in the show"/career minor leaguer either. He had 45 G & 99 Points in OHA-Jrs. in '74, although he was generally a year older than his contemporaries (Paiement 50 G & 123 P, Boudreau 46 G & 113 P, Maruk 47 G & 112 P, T.Young 45 G & 106 P, etc.). He was the 39th overall pick, not great, but apparently not a total unknown either. He had 21 points in 35 games right off the bat (age 20-21), which may not sound great, but it was as good of a PPG as anyone on a bad Seals team, and his -2 stands out as the best on the team on a per-game basis as well. For whatever reason, it doesn't look like he was given much of a chance after that, even on those bad teams. He put up solid, but not outstanding numbers in the CHL, then was signed as a FA by the Kings, had very good AHL season in '78 (3rd in goals, top 10 in points) and was finally given a chance mid-way through the '79 season. I think we can both agree that there's a sharp contrast between getting very limited action with the Seals and playing on Marcel Dionne's wing, so it's hard to really conclude too much about his pre-Kings days, except to say that a franchise known for bad decisions and bad play didn't give him a lot of ice time.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I will agree that Selanne would have had an NHL with more depth when you compare Dionne in the 1970s, but let's face it, neither Dionne nor Selanne were guys who were worried about 70-80 point men catching them. When you evaluate guys like this I think really only the top level talent matters. There were more Ray Whitneys in Teemu's time, but does that count? Plus once the 1980s arrived and the 21 teams then I think what Dionne saw in the 1980s depth wise and certainly top end-wise, it would be similar to the 1990s with Teemu.
How does "half the players in the top 5/10 in goals/points" bring to mind Ray Whitney? I'm referring to players like Jagr, Forsberg, Bure, Fedorov, Sundin, Palffy, Demitra, Mogilny, Bondra... Alfredsson, Kovalev, Hossa, Elias, Naslund, Hejduk.... Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sedins, etc., as well as the US players such as Modano, Tkachuk, Roenick, LeClair, Weight, Amonte, etc.

The top U.S. scorer from '72-'87 was Reed Larson, and the only real threats were players like Mullen and Broten, late in Dionne's career. Sure, Dionne had to compete with Stastny, Kurri and Nilsson in the latter part of his prime/career, but there just wasn't the depth to cause a player of Dionne's ability to plummet down the leaderboard so much in many of his off-peak years.

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I guess we'll have to disagree on this and how boring would these boards be if we didn't, right? I think Dionne beats Selanne based on being slightly more revered during his peak years and being able to maintain a higher level of play for longer with more elite seasons. It isn't like Dionne blows him out of the water, it is just that there is too much offense in Dionne's arsenal to ignore and this is one of those players where I believe he beats him at his own game.
We seem to disagree a lot and that's fine. I think it's about even and only voted for Selanne based on him still being a very good player post-lockout, and Dionne's woeful playoff record. Mainly I voted for him to even up the poll a bit, since I didn't allow an "even" option. I don't expect you to change your mind and side with Selanne, but thought you weren't really being fair in portraying it as a clear, large edge for Dionne. If you prefer Dionne and now admit that it's close, then I'm satisfied with that.

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12-30-2012, 12:11 PM
  #77
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Charlie Simmer/Dave Taylor

Charlie Simmer was a weak skater which is why the Seals let him go.

His one OHA season was on a second year expansion team, Sault Ste Marie,with Jack Valiquette. Third in scoring on his OHA Jr. team.

Dave Taylor was a much better skater than Simmer. Combined they brought the size that gave Marcel Dionne the extra open ice and time in the scoring areas.

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12-30-2012, 01:50 PM
  #78
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CYM, after seeing the adjusted points, I'm not sure how one can go with Selanne. Dionne already wins, and we both know that if we used "adjusted adjusted" points it would be by a bigger margin too.

Bigger than Savard and Turgeon, for example

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12-30-2012, 02:39 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
CYM, after seeing the adjusted points, I'm not sure how one can go with Selanne. Dionne already wins, and we both know that if we used "adjusted adjusted" points it would be by a bigger margin too.

Bigger than Savard and Turgeon, for example
Like I keep emphasizing, from my perspective it's very close from all angles. Actually, "adjusted adjusted" tends to narrow the gap further. That's because, while the 80s (along with the mid-60s) were about the toughest era to score adjusted points, the 70s (along with pre-mid 60s eras) were about the easiest. Doubly adjusted numbers might help Dionne widen the gap slightly between their peaks (3-5 years), but also helps Selanne close the gap between their primes (8-12 years). The margins are between 1-5% in favor of Dionne, which is within the margin of error IMO. There's also Selanne's better goal-scoring to consider, which if you give higher credit for goals than assists would basically negate the gap. On top of that, when I studied the difficulty of stars scoring points (or adjusted points) in different eras, it was based on PPG. This does not consider the fact that Dionne played in an era when star forwards tended to not miss many games, while Selanne played in an era when forwards tended to miss a lot of games. I don't know the exact magnitude of this effect, nor exactly how to incorporate it into the numbers (at least not without redoing the study), however it seems clear that such a further adjustment would be in Selanne's favor, if anything.

Everything I've looked at suggests it is very close:

- adjusted scoring and "adjusted adjusted" scoring, on peak, prime and career basis
- adjusted plus-minus on peak, prime and career basis
- Hart voting finishes among forwards
- scoring finishes (when the much greater Euro/Russian/US competition is factored out)
- playoff/international performance

I just think it's too close to call, so balanced the voting when I cast my ballot. I don't think Selanne has a significant edge, but neither do I think Dionne does either. Selanne wouldn't have beat Gretzky and Lafleur for Harts & Rosses, and Dionne wouldn't have beat Lemieux, Jagr and Hasek for Harts & Rosses (probably say goodbye to the Ross and Pearsons he did win). I don't have any problem with someone voting Dionne, but I can't agree that it's a clear, decisive advantage. Dionne did have a longer continuous prime, but Selanne has still put up some very good numbers in his late 30s, an age when Dionne was retired.

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12-30-2012, 02:52 PM
  #80
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Better Player

The seminal post asks who was the better player - Dionne or Selanne.

Ironically the thread starter has focused exclusively on the offensive side of the question in spite of opportunities to look at the complete game issue.

Selanne evolved from an iffy to serviceable to reasonable defensive player. Dionne never progressed defensively - a definite liability his last 5-6 seasons.

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12-30-2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Ironically the thread starter has focused exclusively on the offensive side of the question in spite of opportunities to look at the complete game issue.

Selanne evolved from an iffy to serviceable to reasonable defensive player. Dionne never progressed defensively - a definite liability his last 5-6 seasons.
It's obviously their offense that is primarily going to be considered. I look at adjusted plus-minus as a more objective way of evaluating their overall games. If defense is going to be a critical component by itself, when looking at elite offensive players, then the player should be able to be used in a more strictly defensive (almost shutdown) role IMO. We're not comparing players like Clarke or Datsyuk here, let's be real.

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12-30-2012, 03:20 PM
  #82
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Compensate

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
It's obviously their offense that is primarily going to be considered. I look at adjusted plus-minus as a more objective way of evaluating their overall games. If defense is going to be a critical component by itself, when looking at elite offensive players, then the player should be able to be used in a more strictly defensive (almost shutdown) role IMO. We're not comparing players like Clarke or Datsyuk here, let's be real.
Indirecty we are since Clarke was a contemporary of Dionne and Datsyuk is a contemporary of Selanne.

If you look at the extent of separation of offensive and defensive skills and contribution in each comparable then Selanne looks very attractive compared to Dionne. Selanne is much closer to Datsyuk the Dionne ever was to Clarke when evaluating the complete game of all.

Point could be made Clarke > Datsyuk > Selanne > Dionne.

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12-30-2012, 04:21 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Indirecty we are since Clarke was a contemporary of Dionne and Datsyuk is a contemporary of Selanne.

If you look at the extent of separation of offensive and defensive skills and contribution in each comparable then Selanne looks very attractive compared to Dionne. Selanne is much closer to Datsyuk the Dionne ever was to Clarke when evaluating the complete game of all.

Point could be made Clarke > Datsyuk > Selanne > Dionne.
Am I alone in thinking that Datsyuk is clearly in 4th place here?

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12-30-2012, 04:25 PM
  #84
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He meant defensively.

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12-30-2012, 04:46 PM
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He meant defensively.
That's what I get for cherrypicking the conversation, I guess.

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12-30-2012, 06:00 PM
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Complete Player

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He meant defensively.
Defensively and as a complete or overall hockey player.

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12-30-2012, 07:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Defensively and as a complete or overall hockey player.
I'll say Datsyuk is better "at both ends" and such but as a player you would want on your team from an indivdual standpoint I can't see how Dionne isn't a noticeable victor here, career wise and peak wise. But that's another poll for another day.

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I don't really know Simmer's story before he went to the Kings. It seems like he was a promising player, maybe not destined to be a star, but not a "cup of coffee in the show"/career minor leaguer either. He had 45 G & 99 Points in OHA-Jrs. in '74, although he was generally a year older than his contemporaries (Paiement 50 G & 123 P, Boudreau 46 G & 113 P, Maruk 47 G & 112 P, T.Young 45 G & 106 P, etc.). He was the 39th overall pick, not great, but apparently not a total unknown either. He had 21 points in 35 games right off the bat (age 20-21), which may not sound great, but it was as good of a PPG as anyone on a bad Seals team, and his -2 stands out as the best on the team on a per-game basis as well. For whatever reason, it doesn't look like he was given much of a chance after that, even on those bad teams. He put up solid, but not outstanding numbers in the CHL, then was signed as a FA by the Kings, had very good AHL season in '78 (3rd in goals, top 10 in points) and was finally given a chance mid-way through the '79 season. I think we can both agree that there's a sharp contrast between getting very limited action with the Seals and playing on Marcel Dionne's wing, so it's hard to really conclude too much about his pre-Kings days, except to say that a franchise known for bad decisions and bad play didn't give him a lot of ice time.
I think even if we give him the benefit of the doubt that he was finding his way on some bad teams and probably was going to be a late bloomer anyway the truth is during his first full season with Dionne on the Triple Crown line he was a guy who flirted with 50-in-50 in back to back years. There was no evidence of a career curve going in that direction otherwise. Same thing with Danny Grant. The difference is Grant was well established but he had by far his best season in 1974-'75 with Dionne scoring 50 goals.

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How does "half the players in the top 5/10 in goals/points" bring to mind Ray Whitney? I'm referring to players like Jagr, Forsberg, Bure, Fedorov, Sundin, Palffy, Demitra, Mogilny, Bondra... Alfredsson, Kovalev, Hossa, Elias, Naslund, Hejduk.... Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sedins, etc., as well as the US players such as Modano, Tkachuk, Roenick, LeClair, Weight, Amonte, etc.

The top U.S. scorer from '72-'87 was Reed Larson, and the only real threats were players like Mullen and Broten, late in Dionne's career. Sure, Dionne had to compete with Stastny, Kurri and Nilsson in the latter part of his prime/career, but there just wasn't the depth to cause a player of Dionne's ability to plummet down the leaderboard so much in many of his off-peak years.
Alright I wasn't sure what you meant by "depth" exactly and what quality of player you meant. I really don't think a player's nationality matters at all. If Wayne Gretzky was born in Stockholm how much does that matter really? He was still competing against Dionne regardless.

1975 top 10: Orr, Esposito, Dionne, Lafleur, P. Mahovlich, Clarke, Robert, Gilbert, Perreault, Martin
1976 - Lafleur, Clarke, Perreault, Barber, Larouche, Ratelle, P. Mahovlich, Pronovost, Sittler, Apps. Dionne (13th)
1977 - Lafleur, Dionne, Shutt, MacLeish, Young, Perreault, Ratelle, Clarke, McDonald, Sittler
1979 - Trottier, Dionne, Lafleur, Bossy, MacMillan, Chouinard, Potvin, Federko, Taylor, Gillies
1980 - Dionne, Gretzky, Lafleur, Perreault, Rogers, Trottier, Simmer, Stoughton, Sittler, Federko
1981 - Gretzky, Dionne, Nilsson, Bossy, Taylor, Stastny, Simmer, Rogers, Federko, Trottier
1982 - Gretzky, Bossy, Stastny, Maruk, Trottier, Savard, Dionne, Smith, Taylor, Ciccarelli
1983 - Gretzky, Stastny, Savard, Bossy, Dionne, Peterson, Messier, Goulet, Nilsson, Kurri
1985 - Gretzky, Kurri, Hawerchuk, Dionne, Coffey, Bossy, Ogrodnick, Savard, Federko, Sutter

This is Marcel Dionne's best seasons and the depth of the competition he faced. Obviously like other years some of the stars didn't crack the top 10 so there were still the likes of Sittler, Perreault, Trottier, etc. right in the mix or on the outside. Most of them were Canadian, but is that even important? Who at that time outside of the NHL is a player that would have unseated Dionne? Makarov? Maybe. Possibly Krutov and we really don't know how Larionov would have fared this decade. That talent he was facing was still pretty darn good and he stuck around in the thick of things for over a decade including some other years prior to 1975. We could do a list for Selanne and it would be more or less the same with less Canadians at the top and an influx of Europeans and the odd year from Mike Modano. It really doesn't make a difference. It was hard to stand out at any time when you look at those names, it certainly isn't something we should discredit him with.

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We seem to disagree a lot and that's fine. I think it's about even and only voted for Selanne based on him still being a very good player post-lockout, and Dionne's woeful playoff record. Mainly I voted for him to even up the poll a bit, since I didn't allow an "even" option. I don't expect you to change your mind and side with Selanne, but thought you weren't really being fair in portraying it as a clear, large edge for Dionne. If you prefer Dionne and now admit that it's close, then I'm satisfied with that.
The polls right now are 41-28. It is a respectable finish by Selanne and about where I figure it would be on a board like ours. I'd wonder if it was a 60-10 finish for Dionne. It isn't the worst thing in the world for someone to put Selanne ahead of Dionne, I just don't think there is a great case for it.

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12-30-2012, 10:43 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think even if we give him the benefit of the doubt that he was finding his way on some bad teams and probably was going to be a late bloomer anyway the truth is during his first full season with Dionne on the Triple Crown line he was a guy who flirted with 50-in-50 in back to back years. There was no evidence of a career curve going in that direction otherwise. Same thing with Danny Grant. The difference is Grant was well established but he had by far his best season in 1974-'75 with Dionne scoring 50 goals.
Dionne elevated Simmer, just like Selanne elevated Kariya:

Kariya
before Selanne arrived('95, first 2/3 of '96): 103 points in 100 games
after Selanne arrived (last 1/3 '96, '97, '98): 174 points in 120 games

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
1975 top 10: Orr, Esposito, Dionne
1977 - Lafleur, Dionne, Shutt
1979 - Trottier, Dionne, Lafleur
1980 - Dionne, Gretzky, Lafleur
1981 - Gretzky, Dionne, Bossy
1982 - Gretzky, Bossy, Maruk, Trottier, Savard, Dionne,
1983 - Gretzky, Savard, Bossy, Dionne
1985 - Gretzky, Hawerchuk, Dionne

It was hard to stand out at any time when you look at those names, it certainly isn't something we should discredit him with.
In the above quote, I reduced it to Canadian players. I'm not trying to discredit Dionne, but rather give Selanne proper credit for playing during an era with substantially more competition. The problem is that our perceptions of both the Canadian & non-Canadian players during Selanne's era are colored by the fact that they competed against each other, which damages our perceptions of both groups. Selanne vs. Canadian players:

1993 Lemieux Oates Yzerman Selanne
1996 Lemieux Sakic Francis Lindros Selanne
1997 Lemeiux Selanne Kariya Gretzky
1998 Gretzky Francis Selanne
1999 Selanne Kariya Sakic Lindros
2000 Recchi Kariya Selanne
2011 St. Louis Perry Stamkos Iginla Selanne

Dionne won once, and was deprived of wins by Gretzy, Orr/Espo, Lafleur and Trottier. Selanne beat all Canadians once, and was deprived of wins by Lemieux and an older Gretzky (Francis isn't finishing ahead w/o Jagr). Dionne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Gretzky, Bossy, Savard, Trottier, Hawerchuk, etc. Selanne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Lemieux, Sakic, Lindros, Oates, Yzerman, Kariya, Recchi, etc. Recchi may seem a bit out of place, but not as much as players like Maruk and Perry. Among Canadians only, Recchi won in 2000, was third in '94, and was 4th to Gretzky and Hull & Oates in '91, and 7th in '98, which would be quite a respectable record. Again, I see more similarity than difference when comparing the two. It doesn't matter which non-Canadians were at/near Dionne's level in his own era, but the many who were at/near the level of Dionne or Selanne in Selanne's era, since that affected Selanne's finishes and therefore our perception of him.

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12-31-2012, 04:54 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Dionne elevated Simmer, just like Selanne elevated Kariya:

Kariya
before Selanne arrived('95, first 2/3 of '96): 103 points in 100 games
after Selanne arrived (last 1/3 '96, '97, '98): 174 points in 120 games
I can be as big of a Kariya critic as the next guy but there is hardly a comparison as to who was the more individually talented player between him and Simmer. If this is 1997, you just very well might have thought Kariya was the slightly better player than Selanne. In no galaxy is Simmer close to Dionne. And I don't think it really matters with Simmer, because Dionne scored all the time with or without him. Simmer didn't necessarily. Kariya did fine even without Selanne, at least compared to Simmer.

Quote:
In the above quote, I reduced it to Canadian players. I'm not trying to discredit Dionne, but rather give Selanne proper credit for playing during an era with substantially more competition. The problem is that our perceptions of both the Canadian & non-Canadian players during Selanne's era are colored by the fact that they competed against each other, which damages our perceptions of both groups. Selanne vs. Canadian players:

1993 Lemieux Oates Yzerman Selanne
1996 Lemieux Sakic Francis Lindros Selanne
1997 Lemeiux Selanne Kariya Gretzky
1998 Gretzky Francis Selanne
1999 Selanne Kariya Sakic Lindros
2000 Recchi Kariya Selanne
2011 St. Louis Perry Stamkos Iginla Selanne

Dionne won once, and was deprived of wins by Gretzy, Orr/Espo, Lafleur and Trottier. Selanne beat all Canadians once, and was deprived of wins by Lemieux and an older Gretzky (Francis isn't finishing ahead w/o Jagr). Dionne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Gretzky, Bossy, Savard, Trottier, Hawerchuk, etc. Selanne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Lemieux, Sakic, Lindros, Oates, Yzerman, Kariya, Recchi, etc. Recchi may seem a bit out of place, but not as much as players like Maruk and Perry. Among Canadians only, Recchi won in 2000, was third in '94, and was 4th to Gretzky and Hull & Oates in '91, and 7th in '98, which would be quite a respectable record. Again, I see more similarity than difference when comparing the two. It doesn't matter which non-Canadians were at/near Dionne's level in his own era, but the many who were at/near the level of Dionne or Selanne in Selanne's era, since that affected Selanne's finishes and therefore our perception of him.
I am not a fan at all of the cherrypicking of Selanne's talent. I think this alone proves Selanne isn't the player Dionne was if you have to do this type of thing. You miss a few players during those years that were better than Selanne but ignore it because of their place of birth. That concept just doesn't hold any weight. You can look at the names yourself from both eras and see that there was never an easy time to win a scoring title. I didn't bring this up before, but if push comes to shove, then the era with the least amount of top end talent among forwards was easily the late 1990s/early 2000s. This was a weird transition period where there were a lot of injuries, Mario retiring, Gretzky either retired or on the decline and a bit of a gap when Yzerman, Francis, etc. were getting older and the likes of Thornton and Iginla, etc. hadn't broken out yet (thank the weak 1990s drafts for that).

However, the NHL was still the NHL in the late 1990s even if there were gaps with top shelf talent. I don't hold it against Selanne because it would be a disservice to the other great players who competed at that time and there were enough. I'm just saying if you want to find a time when it would have been easier to win some awards between the two players then Selanne does have the easiest period of all. I didn't bring it up, I am just saying.

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12-31-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Kariya did fine even without Selanne, at least compared to Simmer.
What elite seasons did Kariya have without Selanne? Not that Kariya wasn't an elite talent, better than Simmer, but he didn't really stand out, for whatever reason, without Selanne on the other wing. With Selanne, he finished first among Canadians in points in '99, second in '00 and second to Lemieux in '97.

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You can look at the names yourself from both eras and see that there was never an easy time to win a scoring title. I didn't bring this up before, but if push comes to shove, then the era with the least amount of top end talent among forwards was easily the late 1990s/early 2000s. This was a weird transition period where there were a lot of injuries, Mario retiring, Gretzky either retired or on the decline and a bit of a gap when Yzerman, Francis, etc. were getting older and the likes of Thornton and Iginla, etc. hadn't broken out yet (thank the weak 1990s drafts for that).

However, the NHL was still the NHL in the late 1990s even if there were gaps with top shelf talent. I don't hold it against Selanne because it would be a disservice to the other great players who competed at that time and there were enough. I'm just saying if you want to find a time when it would have been easier to win some awards between the two players then Selanne does have the easiest period of all. I didn't bring it up, I am just saying.
You just brought it up, but I don't fully agree with you. Yes, it was easier from '02-'04, because the stars of the 90s were older and the DPE was so brutal from an injury standpoint that most of them were no longer in peak form. When Count Bettman didn't enforce the rules, players got held, hooked, slashed, charged, etc. and (with help from other factors) scoring decreased. Don't confuse low point totals in DPE with lack of talent. If you want an era without depth of scoring talent, like '02-'04, it was the Espo era, when players like Clarke and Ratelle were often the strongest competition. Selanne's prime was mainly ~'93-'01 and there was plenty of competition during that time. It may not have been the strongest era for Canadian forwards, but the increased talent from the US and overseas made the Canadian forwards appear weaker than they really were. Maybe non-Canadians wouldn't have been much additional competition in the 70s, but they were in the 90s and are to this day, and that's all that matters in Selanne's case.

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01-02-2013, 09:12 AM
  #91
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Dionne elevated Simmer, just like Selanne elevated Kariya:

Kariya
before Selanne arrived('95, first 2/3 of '96): 103 points in 100 games
after Selanne arrived (last 1/3 '96, '97, '98): 174 points in 120 games



In the above quote, I reduced it to Canadian players. I'm not trying to discredit Dionne, but rather give Selanne proper credit for playing during an era with substantially more competition. The problem is that our perceptions of both the Canadian & non-Canadian players during Selanne's era are colored by the fact that they competed against each other, which damages our perceptions of both groups. Selanne vs. Canadian players:

1993 Lemieux Oates Yzerman Selanne
1996 Lemieux Sakic Francis Lindros Selanne
1997 Lemeiux Selanne Kariya Gretzky
1998 Gretzky Francis Selanne
1999 Selanne Kariya Sakic Lindros
2000 Recchi Kariya Selanne
2011 St. Louis Perry Stamkos Iginla Selanne

Dionne won once, and was deprived of wins by Gretzy, Orr/Espo, Lafleur and Trottier. Selanne beat all Canadians once, and was deprived of wins by Lemieux and an older Gretzky (Francis isn't finishing ahead w/o Jagr). Dionne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Gretzky, Bossy, Savard, Trottier, Hawerchuk, etc. Selanne had some other seasons where he was behind more than one player: Lemieux, Sakic, Lindros, Oates, Yzerman, Kariya, Recchi, etc. Recchi may seem a bit out of place, but not as much as players like Maruk and Perry. Among Canadians only, Recchi won in 2000, was third in '94, and was 4th to Gretzky and Hull & Oates in '91, and 7th in '98, which would be quite a respectable record. Again, I see more similarity than difference when comparing the two. It doesn't matter which non-Canadians were at/near Dionne's level in his own era, but the many who were at/near the level of Dionne or Selanne in Selanne's era, since that affected Selanne's finishes and therefore our perception of him.
I think in points, Kariya elevated Selanne to be honest. The truth is, the elevated each other. Look at the seasons individually instead of lumping them like you did. Look at 1996 before Selanne arrived. Kariya was far and away leading the team in scoring and doing phenomenal.

In 97-98 when Kariya missed a ton of the season, Selanne's play, while his points were lower, hit a nice level of individual greatness.

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01-02-2013, 12:46 PM
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I think in points, Kariya elevated Selanne to be honest. The truth is, the elevated each other. Look at the seasons individually instead of lumping them like you did. Look at 1996 before Selanne arrived. Kariya was far and away leading the team in scoring and doing phenomenal.

In 97-98 when Kariya missed a ton of the season, Selanne's play, while his points were lower, hit a nice level of individual greatness.
Yes, they helped each other... and they needed help on that sad sack Ducks team. Kariya was still very good before Selanne arrived and had another very good season in 2003 without him. Selanne was elite in '93 & '96 (with injuries in between) and has some very good post-lockout seasons, despite his age.

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01-02-2013, 05:20 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The seminal post asks who was the better player - Dionne or Selanne.

Ironically the thread starter has focused exclusively on the offensive side of the question in spite of opportunities to look at the complete game issue.

Selanne evolved from an iffy to serviceable to reasonable defensive player. Dionne never progressed defensively - a definite liability his last 5-6 seasons.
While this is true, all players must play defensively in today's NHL and it wasn't true in the 80's so people need to take it with a grain of salt.

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01-02-2013, 05:30 PM
  #94
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I can be as big of a Kariya critic as the next guy but there is hardly a comparison as to who was the more individually talented player between him and Simmer. If this is 1997, you just very well might have thought Kariya was the slightly better player than Selanne. In no galaxy is Simmer close to Dionne. And I don't think it really matters with Simmer, because Dionne scored all the time with or without him. Simmer didn't necessarily. Kariya did fine even without Selanne, at least compared to Simmer.



I am not a fan at all of the cherrypicking of Selanne's talent. I think this alone proves Selanne isn't the player Dionne was if you have to do this type of thing. You miss a few players during those years that were better than Selanne but ignore it because of their place of birth. That concept just doesn't hold any weight. You can look at the names yourself from both eras and see that there was never an easy time to win a scoring title. I didn't bring this up before, but if push comes to shove, then the era with the least amount of top end talent among forwards was easily the late 1990s/early 2000s. [/B]This was a weird transition period where there were a lot of injuries, Mario retiring, Gretzky either retired or on the decline and a bit of a gap when Yzerman, Francis, etc. were getting older and the likes of Thornton and Iginla, etc. hadn't broken out yet (thank the weak 1990s drafts for that).

However, the NHL was still the NHL in the late 1990s even if there were gaps with top shelf talent. I don't hold it against Selanne because it would be a disservice to the other great players who competed at that time and there were enough. I'm just saying if you want to find a time when it would have been easier to win some awards between the two players then Selanne does have the easiest period of all. I didn't bring it up, I am just saying.
There were no gaps on the top shelf.

Sure the amount of talent might fluctuate a bit and swing back and forth between eras of good forwards to good Dman but usually the measuring stick is very subjective and it usually comes down to statistics.

Sorry but when comparing players from different eras one has to take into account the nature of the league and the context of the players in that league, ie the composition of it.

Comparing Selanne against all of the Canadian talent and comparing Dionne the same way is a more level playing field because of the large numbers of top end players from both Europe and the Us that started emerging into the NHL, especially in the early 90's and beyond.

In fact Selanne is part of this explosion of top end talent and frankly I'm not sure if you are being ignorant of the changes in the NHL or downplaying them because it might not fit your argument but unless one thinks that Ontario produced less skilled players in the 90's it's pretty obvious that the talent pool was increased in terms of both quality and quantity in the 90's and more than enough to offset the increase in the numbers of teams as well.

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01-02-2013, 07:07 PM
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There were no gaps on the top shelf.

Sure the amount of talent might fluctuate a bit and swing back and forth between eras of good forwards to good Dman but usually the measuring stick is very subjective and it usually comes down to statistics.

Sorry but when comparing players from different eras one has to take into account the nature of the league and the context of the players in that league, ie the composition of it.

Comparing Selanne against all of the Canadian talent and comparing Dionne the same way is a more level playing field because of the large numbers of top end players from both Europe and the Us that started emerging into the NHL, especially in the early 90's and beyond.

In fact Selanne is part of this explosion of top end talent and frankly I'm not sure if you are being ignorant of the changes in the NHL or downplaying them because it might not fit your argument but unless one thinks that Ontario produced less skilled players in the 90's it's pretty obvious that the talent pool was increased in terms of both quality and quantity in the 90's and more than enough to offset the increase in the numbers of teams as well.
It seems like there's some people that subscribe to the myth that the top-level forward talent wasn't so great during Selanne's prime and I have to vehemently disagree. Anyone who watched hockey during that time should know there was a ton of elite talent at forward. However, there were a number of factors that disguise this fact:

A) It was immediately following a period (second half of 80s and early 90s) when Gretzky and Lemieux were both at/near their peaks, as well as Yzerman and for briefer periods some of the stars of the early 80s.

B) The lack of rules enforcement, much better goalie equipment, and increased defensive systems really put a damper on scoring, so the lower season totals of superstars during most of the last two decades makes it appear that they aren't as good as the players from the previous period.

C) Players from the US and overseas became a much bigger factor. The much increased competition made both the non-Canadian players (who had to compete against each other, as well as the typical Canadian players) and the Canadian players (who now had close to double the previous overall competition at forward) appear less dominant than they otherwise would, which affects people's perceptions, whether they admit it or not.

D) The DPE was so difficult due to lack of rules enforcement (and perhaps the much harder training required to stay competitive during that time), that most of the superstars lost substantial time to injuries and often had shortened peaks, primes and/or careers. This again affects the perceptions of the dominant abilities of that group.

I don't think that era's elite scoring forwards were inferior to any other era's, with the exception of the period immediately before it. Obviously healthy prime Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman are about as tough as competition as one could have for the scoring title. However, one has to remember that these players were still present during Selanne's prime, although only Lemieux had peak performance during this time (his '93 and '96 seasons are two of his very best, and '97 was still great as well). Gretzky won a Ross in '94 and was led Canadian players in points in '98 (and third among Canadians to Lemieux & Kariya in '97), so while he was well past his peak, he was still a force to be reckoned with. Older players such as Messier and Hull & Oates also had a bit left in the tank as well. Then you have the newer Canadian players such as Sakic, Lindros and Kariya, who would have appeared more dominant if not for the unusually high level of competition in comparison to other eras. Then you add the US players like Modano, LeClair, Tkachuk, Roenick, etc. (more depth competition for points, but LeClair & Tkachuk were Richard contenders). Finally, you have the new players from overseas: Jagr, Selanne, Forsberg, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Palffy, Bondra, etc.

Overall, that's a ton of competition for top 5 & top 10 finishes in goals and points. What other eras had such strong competition near the top?

- 80s to early 90s as previously mentioned was just insane at the very top, due to Gretzky and then Lemieux as well... and some pretty good depth as well
- most of the 60s (with Hull, Howe, Mikita and Beliveau) and the late 70s (Lafleur, Dionne, Trottier, Bossy) were tough at the top, although not nearly the depth IMO
- the current crop (Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby) is very good, but thinner and inconsistent (injuries... Ovechkin sliding), although good depth
- the first half of the 70s has Orr & Espo at the top, but not much other high end competition and pretty weak depth IMO
- most of the 50s is Howe, with rather weak competition
- earlier eras almost certainly don't have nearly the depth, and it's difficult to evaluate the very best against much weaker competition

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01-02-2013, 07:23 PM
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Am I alone in thinking that Datsyuk is clearly in 4th place here?
Well not at a two way game! But Prime he is 4th. Clarke is obviously first!

I don't know why one would bring up Selanne as some kind of great defensive forward. He wasn't and never was. You get defensive credit as a scoring forward if you are very good at it... like better then 3rd liners whose roles are to shut down guys. Selanne is not near that kind of player on defence. Just because he might have actually backchecked at times doesn't really make for an argument.

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01-02-2013, 08:53 PM
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Indirecty we are since Clarke was a contemporary of Dionne and Datsyuk is a contemporary of Selanne.

If you look at the extent of separation of offensive and defensive skills and contribution in each comparable then Selanne looks very attractive compared to Dionne. Selanne is much closer to Datsyuk the Dionne ever was to Clarke when evaluating the complete game of all.

Point could be made Clarke > Datsyuk > Selanne > Dionne.
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Am I alone in thinking that Datsyuk is clearly in 4th place here?
Maybe overall but he isn't done yet and defensively Dats is Clarke's equal.

Overall Clarke is rated too high for several reason in the HOH sections but the main one is his 3 Harts (and the over emphasis of them) when it's pretty clear Orr should have won 2 of them (with actual playing games nothing hypothetical) and perhaps even the 3rd one had he not been injured.

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01-02-2013, 09:26 PM
  #98
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defensively Dats is Clarke's equal.
This is gonna be a tough sell.

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01-02-2013, 11:27 PM
  #99
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This is gonna be a tough sell.
I know especially with Lord but the landscape of the NHL is vastly different in the 70's and 00's and Clarke biggest selling point is his ESGA in the 75 and 76 seasons especially but almost all of the flyers had very good numbers there.

I haven't looked at the numbers super close but could part of the reason be that Philly played short handed quite a bit?

Bernie Parent also had his 2 monster seasons in there and they didn't seem to skip a beat in 76 when Bernie played 11 games and went 6-2-3.

Wayne Stephenson had a 66-40-10-13 line (GP-W-L-T)
Bobby Taylor had a 4-3-1 line
Gary Inness had a 2-2-0-0 line

Pretty sure old Killon will have some stories about those goalies.

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01-03-2013, 12:37 AM
  #100
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Maybe overall but he isn't done yet and defensively Dats is Clarke's equal.

Overall Clarke is rated too high for several reason in the HOH sections but the main one is his 3 Harts (and the over emphasis of them) when it's pretty clear Orr should have won 2 of them (with actual playing games nothing hypothetical) and perhaps even the 3rd one had he not been injured.
Even if Clarke had lost all three of those Harts to Orr (like you say, he should have lost 2 of them), to me it wouldn't make me think any less of him or his resume. It's Orr. If you're a runner up to him, that's as good as a Hart in my mind. It's a special circumstance.

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