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Paul Martin Trade or Buyout? (if there's a season)

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Old
12-30-2012, 12:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I won't disagree when just talking about the playoff series. He was atrocious. Though his role wasn't really replaced by rookies. That top 4 spot was taken by Niskanen. Niskanen's 3rd pairing spot was then replaced by rookies. And now we don't have Michalek taking one of the other top 4 spots. If we get rid of Martin, someone better be ready to be thrown into the deep end ready to swim.

I would love to find an upgrade over Martin. Especially with both him and Niskanen in the top 4. I would just like a bit more size and physicality there. But until someone shows that they are ready to take the spot, I don't think it makes much sense to get rid of him. Let the young kids battle for the 3rd pairing opening. If a couple of them really impress, well we can cross that bridge when we get there.
I'm not sure how much more Engelland could do in a 3rd pairing role to show he's capable of that, to be honest. He's bigger, more physical, played better defense last year, and even scored at a pretty good pace.

He was everything Orpik was supposed to be.

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12-30-2012, 12:24 PM
  #77
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I believe that's why they traded Michalek for next to nothing. Shero understands that he made a mistake locking up so much money so suddenly in two free agent defenseman. So he traded one and gained the, perceived at the time, flexibility to see what happens with the other. If he trades/releases/whatever both then it's viewed as quite a failure on his part and any business man knows that saving face is a large part of the battle when things don't go your way. It hurts his reputation amongst other GMs, agents, and fans. Martin isn't going anywhere soon, imo. Michalek wasn't great last year but he was better than Martin in terms of bringing his talents to the table most would agree I'd think and had the smaller cap hit, yet he was the one traded. Shero still sees value in Martin.

You are correct that's one reason why they traded Michalek for cheap, and FWIW I think on balance they traded the wrong guy. That said I don't know that PHX would've accepted Martin because of his higher hit and because they already know Z fits into Tippett's system perfectly. That was just one of those weird situations where we had a chance to clear a bunch of space and get a decent prospect, and perhaps there were some "future considerations" built into that trade as well. Building up some trust between GMs and potentially PHX paying a bit more down the road in another trade, where we get more than we give, on paper.

IOW I don't think it's about Shero protecting himself. He wants to win... and stay financially flexible and he saw an opportunity to make some big changes on draft day and made them. It was easier for him to clear the space moving Michalek than Martin (and likely was not happy with either one of them / prepared to move both of them). At some point he probably tried to ship Martin to other teams vs. always intending to keep him. I think whatever trades he attempted were balked at because of Martin's hit, so Shero spun it positive and did the whole "Paul is aware he needs to improve and I'm going to give him that chance" stuff.

If a new CBA is signed this week and the cap next year is in the 60-62M range, Martin won't be on this roster next year IMO. I mean Shero could always wait and sign Malkin and Letang during the season of their FA, but I doubt he'll be comfortable waiting that long considering they are arguably 1a and 3rd most important players on this team. Something has to give somewhere in that situation. It's either going to be Martin, or it's going to be Kennedy + Orpik maybe (something that amounts to clearing 4-5M in space for the big signings we need to make). The timing is really the only question.


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Old
12-30-2012, 12:32 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm not sure how much more Engelland could do in a 3rd pairing role to show he's capable of that, to be honest. He's bigger, more physical, played better defense last year, and even scored at a pretty good pace.

He was everything Orpik was supposed to be.
maybe he can. He hasn't really had a chance to get the minutes or to go up against the competition to really prove he can do it. He's definitely bigger and more physical. I don't know if he played better defense or if he played against people who played worse offense. He's a worse skater, not as smart and not as good with his stick with or without the puck. I would love Engelland to prove he can stick with good competition for 20 minutes a game.


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12-30-2012, 12:42 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
maybe he can. He hasn't really had a chance to get the minutes or to go up against the competition to really prove he can do it. He's definitely bigger and more physical. I don't know if he played better defense or if he played against people who played worse offense. He's a worse skater, not as smart and not as good with his stick with or without the puck.
I take issue with that. You won't mistake Engelland for Letang, but he was good at skating the puck up-ice last year, and played smart hockey at both ends, which more than we can say for Martin.

Hell, I'd rather have Engo in the offensive zone too. At least he has a shot and can get it on net.

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I would love Engelland to prove he can stick with good competition for 20 minutes a game.
But how does that happen without moving up the line-up?

I'm not saying having Engelland in the top 4 is ideal, but he did as well as anyone could expect a physical defenseman to play in a 3rd pair role last year, and if Martin doesn't turn his game around, I'd have much more confidence with Engelland getting those minutes.

I would have Martin on a very, very short leash.

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12-30-2012, 12:46 PM
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Martin just cannot generate any kind of zip on the puck no matter what he's doing, shooting or going for the long pass. Perhaps the broken forearm did a lot more damage than initially thought.
Eh... he was a soft defensemen with a bad shot when he was with the Devils too. He's good at defending against the rush in a highly structured system and he make a good, not great, outlet pass.... thats about it.

I'm hoping that the Pens go back to defensemen that can actually defend around MAF and are good in the middle of the ice. Then go after transitional wingers.

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12-30-2012, 12:51 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I take issue with that. You won't mistake Engelland for Letang, but he was good at skating the puck up-ice last year, and played smart hockey at both ends, which more than we can say for Martin.

Hell, I'd rather have Engo in the offensive zone too. At least he has a shot and can get it on net.



But how does that happen without moving up the line-up?

I'm not saying having Engelland in the top 4 is ideal, but he did as well as anyone could expect a physical defenseman to play in a 3rd pair role last year, and if Martin doesn't turn his game around, I'd have much more confidence with Engelland getting those minutes.

I would have Martin on a very, very short leash.
My entire point here has simply been that we should give Martin a chance to turn his game around. Don't get rid of a guy who has been a really good player in a top 4 role before when you don't have anyone else who has done the same. If he doesn't do it, then we need to figure something else out. We have guys who may be able to get it done. But as of right now, Martin is one of 4 guys who HAS gotten it done before. (And honestly, that's being generous to Niskanen.)

It doesn't make sense to move Martin right now. If someone like Despres or Engelland shows they deserve that spot more than him, give it to them. Cross that bridge when we come to it.

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12-30-2012, 12:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I would have Martin on a very, very short leash.
And I think everyone agrees with that. No way are we going to keep him and have Engelland ahead of him in our depth chart. If he's not playing top 4 minutes, he's gone. We have more than enough NHL ready D-men to take on bottom pairing duty.

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12-30-2012, 01:26 PM
  #83
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My entire point here has simply been that we should give Martin a chance to turn his game around. Don't get rid of a guy who has been a really good player in a top 4 role before when you don't have anyone else who has done the same. If he doesn't do it, then we need to figure something else out. We have guys who may be able to get it done. But as of right now, Martin is one of 4 guys who HAS gotten it done before. (And honestly, that's being generous to Niskanen.)

It doesn't make sense to move Martin right now. If someone like Despres or Engelland shows they deserve that spot more than him, give it to them. Cross that bridge when we come to it.
I'm on the fence. Martin's play disgusted me last year and I think Engelland can handle top 4 minutes, but I don't like the prospect of trading a once-coveted defenseman as a salary dump either.

I'd give him 20 games, tops. If he doesn't look to have done a complete 180 by then, there's no way I'd want the Pens going to war with that pansy again.

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12-30-2012, 01:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I'm on the fence. Martin's play disgusted me last year and I think Engelland can handle top 4 minutes, but I don't like the prospect of trading a once-coveted defenseman as a salary dump either.

I'd give him 20 games, tops. If he doesn't look to have done a complete 180 by then, there's no way I'd want the Pens going to war with that pansy again.
I love Engo on that third pairing. I do not share your optimism about what he could do in a bigger role.

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12-30-2012, 01:59 PM
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I could see Nashville, Ottawa, NYI, and Tampa all having some interest in Martin. Throw in Detroit and Carolina is some salary was coming back.

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12-30-2012, 02:17 PM
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I could see Nashville, Ottawa, NYI, and Tampa all having some interest in Martin. Throw in Detroit and Carolina is some salary was coming back.
Detroit and/or Nashville make the most sense. Chicago is another team that could be a possibility.

I don't see the Pens doing business with the Isles anytime soon.
Yzerman just added Carle and Salo to a roster that has 8 or 9 defensemen on one-way contracts.
Doubtful that the Hurricanes need another diminutive puck-mover (Corvo, Faulk, McBain, Murphy).
Now, Paul Martin in Ottawa would be the source of horrible puns. So I hope not.

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12-30-2012, 02:46 PM
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Now, Paul Martin in Ottawa would be the source of horrible puns. So I hope not.
I don't get it

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12-30-2012, 03:13 PM
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Jesus it's been so long without hockey I forgot about Engo in my earlier post about the revamped D!

That makes it even easier to foresee letting someone like Orpik go (because all he provides lately is some grit for his $3.75M, and plenty of health issues).

Our D in a year or two could be:

Letang, FA, Despres, Nisknanen, Engo, WBS, WBS

and still be pretty competitive. FA could be someone like Douglas Murray. Replaces Orpik's grit at half the cost more or less.

We can safely assume Despres would have to **** up at camp to not get a spot (unlikely he's traded IMO), and none of the big-name offensive D prospects are close to being ready based on what we've seen this year. So that leaves Strait, Bortuzzo, Dumoulin as the guys most likely to fight for those last two spots IMO. I can live with that if it means getting rid of an albatross-like contract.

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12-30-2012, 03:43 PM
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Do we honestly think we will go without signing any of our UFAs AND not be able to sign/trade for any other veteran D-men in the next two years? Hell, the way our defense played in the playoffs last spring, we should be thanking our lucky stars that we don't have more than one guy under contract for the long haul.
It comes down to asset management. It is foolhardy to write a player who upon signing his contract with the Pens was arguably the most desired free agent defenseman of his class. He has value, most especially within the right system. For mine, the decision tree follows:

1. He returns to form and you keep him for the balance of his contract with an ongoing review for trade options as per any other player
2. He returns to form and you trade him in a deal that includes a cap-friendlier replacement who is likely a lower level of player with additional assets in tow
3. He doesn't return to form and you trade him for what you can. Such a trade would likely be along the lines of the Michalek trade
4. He doesn't return to form and you buy him out.

Gain less cost for each option:
1. A quality top-4 defenseman for 2-years
2. Loss of a quality top-4 defenseman for the return of cap flexibility and additional assets
3. An increasing level of weakness along the blueline in the short-term while receiving cap flexilibity
4. Cap flexibility

Of each of these options, the level of managerial control in options 1 through 3 is minimal, i.e. it's down to the player / coach / system as much as anything. However, they are each significant improvements over a simple buy-out thus IMO, a buy-out is poor asset management unless he becomes untradeable. I would be very surprised if he falls to that level as his upside for a team trying to get up to the floor is arguably superior to other options around the league.

My 10c.

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12-30-2012, 04:12 PM
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I don't get it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Martin

Paul Martin was a former Prime Minister and Ottawa is the location of the House of Commons.

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12-30-2012, 04:13 PM
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The Martin hate on here is silly.
We rushed our top defensive prospect to the NHL to play in the playoffs against our archrivals, because of him.

The hate is deserved.

There's literally nothing he does well. Nothing.

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12-30-2012, 04:19 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Martin

Paul Martin was a former Prime Minister and Ottawa is the location of the House of Commons.
oh I see
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We rushed our top defensive prospect to the NHL to play in the playoffs against our archrivals, because of him.

The hate is deserved.

There's literally nothing he does well. Nothing.
nope

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12-30-2012, 04:33 PM
  #93
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I love Engo on that third pairing. I do not share your optimism about what he could do in a bigger role.
It's not that optimistic. He wouldn't need to be a great top 4 defenseman, he'd just need to be better than Martin. That's a mighty low bar.

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12-30-2012, 04:35 PM
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It's not that optimistic. He wouldn't need to be a great top 4 defenseman, he'd just need to be better than Martin. That's a mighty low bar.
Martin from last year? Maybe. Martin from the rest of his career, including his first year with us? Engelland will never be nearly that good at hockey.

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12-30-2012, 04:40 PM
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Not to go too far off topic, but I think Engo deserves a good amount of minutes this season. He's our steal of a deal defender. He could do big things if paired correctly.

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12-30-2012, 04:45 PM
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Martin from last year? Maybe. Martin from the rest of his career, including his first year with us? Engelland will never be nearly that good at hockey.
It would take a monumental drop in performance for him not to.

If Martin doesn't get back on track in a reasonable number of games whenever the NHL starts up and we hang onto him regardless, we're setting ourselves up for another playoff failure. We might not know 100% whether Engelland can be useful in a top 4 role, but we know for a fact that an '11-'12 Martin will do nothing but hurt the team.

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Not to go too far off topic, but I think Engo deserves a good amount of minutes this season. He's our steal of a deal defender. He could do big things if paired correctly.
Absolutely. I have no idea why some would be so scared to use him in a bigger role that they would entertain the thought of another playoffs from Martin like his last.

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12-30-2012, 04:56 PM
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I wouldn't bury Martin because he wasn't bad prior to last year. Last year... he just was horrifyingly poor. Like Gonchar bad in his last year. But I just cannot bury him completely.

I'd give him 30 games to get his act right or else he's done.

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12-30-2012, 05:08 PM
  #98
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I wouldn't bury Martin because he wasn't bad prior to last year. Last year... he just was horrifyingly poor. Like Gonchar bad in his last year. But I just cannot bury him completely.

I'd give him 30 games to get his act right or else he's done.
He reminded me of Whitney in his last partial season here, haha.

We're on the same wavelength, we just differ on the length of rope we want to give the guy. Either way, I don't want to be in the playoffs again with the bad Martin.

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12-30-2012, 05:12 PM
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We don't have a strong enough #3 defender to allow Engelland in the top 4 IMO. Orpik/Niskanen is what Id roll with. And if our Norris caliber defender can't help Martin rebound, then a move will happen.

What could happen is our 3rd pairing getting 13-15 minutes of ice time. And Letang playing 25+.

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12-30-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
He reminded me of Whitney in his last partial season here, haha.

We're on the same wavelength, we just differ on the length of rope we want to give the guy. Either way, I don't want to be in the playoffs again with the bad Martin.
Theoretically, that's not a problem whether Martin stays or goes. Martin's replacement would be internal and as the roster is not capped in the post season Bylsma could just bench him and play one of the kids.

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