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Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

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Old
12-30-2012, 02:53 PM
  #76
eyeball11
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm not the one who's creating arguments that never existed to try to make a point .

The highest former 1st round prospect or pick for that matter that he has aquired was picked in the mid teens and not one of them is worth a damn outside of Gardiner .
So you won't mind going back and pulling up all my quotes (or others) referring to Reilly as a Hall of Famer, right?

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12-30-2012, 02:53 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So you don't know what you want and probably have little idea how to achieve it.
I spelled out in full what I want: meaningful results

That means making the playoffs. It isnt hard to do. Over half the league does it. One of the easiest formatted leagues in all of sports for post-season.

And if being above average is unattainable, get prospects in our system that will for certain make a difference down the road.

Borrowing this from another thread showing probability of top6 forward top4 defence draft odds:

Probability by 5 pick "blocks"

BlockAvg % 
1 to 584 
6 to 1042 
11 to 1542 
16 to 2030 
21 to 2536 
26 to 3024 

Clearly late round picks are not meaningful and no where near as good as lottery picks.

Maybe Brian Burke needs to see this.

In conclusion, either win or get a lottery pick. I'm sick of this middle of the road ******** Burke has dragged us through

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12-30-2012, 02:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Previous to becoming GM of the Leafs, JFJ was a scout for San Jose. He had shown no ability whatsoever to be in a management role. Let alone one that comes with the pressures of the NHL largest market. Furthermore, Pat Quinn should never have been let go. He was on a string of playoff appearances but was forced out because ownership thought they could run the team better. It was an insult to a great man and good GM.

JFJ was young and controllable. Quinn was not. When Burke was hired, he made it abundantly clear he would only accept the position if he was given complete autonomy in hockey operations. It was known league wide that JFJ was nothing more then a puppet.
Actually before JFJ was hired as the Leafs General Manager he worked in St. Louis as their Vice President and Director of Hockey Operations. He was also at one point the Assistant General Manger for the Blues.

He became a scout for San Jose after he was fired in Toronto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ferguson,_Jr.

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12-30-2012, 02:59 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So you won't mind going back and pulling up all my quotes referring to Reilly as a Hall of Famer, right?
Since you're the one who accused me of creating arguments that never existed maybe you're the one who should start by pulling up all the quotes which were slagging Reilly while praising Hamiton .

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12-30-2012, 03:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I spelled out in full what I want: meaningful results

That means making the playoffs. It isnt hard to do. Over half the league does it. One of the easiest formatted leagues in all of sports for post-season.

And if being above average is unattainable, get prospects in our system that will for certain make a difference down the road.

Borrowing this from another thread showing probability of top6 forward top4 defence draft odds:

Probability by 5 pick "blocks"

BlockAvg % 
1 to 584 
6 to 1042 
11 to 1542 
16 to 2030 
21 to 2536 
26 to 3024 

Clearly late round picks are not meaningful and no where near as good as lottery picks.

Maybe Brian Burke needs to see this.

In conclusion, either win or get a lottery pick. I'm sick of this middle of the road ******** Burke has dragged us through
So are LA and Boston rules to be followed or exceptions?

We have a lottery pick from 3 of the last 7 drafts. You're only going to get so many.

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12-30-2012, 03:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Since you're the one who accused me of creating arguments that never existed maybe you're the one who should start by pulling up all the quotes which were slagging Reilly while praising Hamiton .
I can make it easier for you with names if you like or you can just peruse the threads on this very page.

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12-30-2012, 03:20 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So you don't know what you want and probably have little idea how to achieve it.

You are aware that all low picks come because "the GM screwed up", right? You're also aware that being given high picks (that which you want) is a direct example of "failure being rewarded" right?

Take your pick.
So it's an unwinable war?

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12-30-2012, 03:22 PM
  #83
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i mean when he came
place was a mess man
straight up...

things have gone better yeah, i love the youth department
i mean would another road be a glorious one?
how much better?

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12-30-2012, 03:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
Well since the last year of the contract was not fair to him, do you think he deserves to redeem himself? He was rebuilding after all and the lockout was not fair for his last year to prove that his team can make the playoffs. Even a shortened season would not be fair to him.

We probably won't resign Connolly, Steckel, Lombardi so that gives him a lot of capspace to sign a good UFA.

If it were me I'd give him one more chance by giving him one more year.

i like his moves/swagger plus takes no bs from anybody resign i say

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12-30-2012, 03:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Actually before JFJ was hired as the Leafs General Manager he worked in St. Louis as their Vice President and Director of Hockey Operations. He was also at one point the Assistant General Manger for the Blues.

He became a scout for San Jose after he was fired in Toronto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ferguson,_Jr.
My mistake! I still dont think that qualifies him to be Leafs GM

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12-30-2012, 04:13 PM
  #86
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If Burke signed a contract that said he was not allowed to trade ANY FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS. I'd be fine wiht him getting a 3 year extension. The guy is an absolute TANK MACHINE. He's tanked every single season since arriving here and he hasn't even been trying!

We need to draft an ELITE 1C
We need to draft an ELITE G
We'll need to replace Kessel with an ELITE Forward prospect

In 2 years were competing for a cup

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12-30-2012, 04:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Some people feel the Islanders have a brighter future than Toronto.

They might be right they might be wrong.

Depends on your faith in young talent.

We cant predict the future so in the meantime we can just say that both teams suck ass and better turn it around or changes will be made.
I think you can say over the past decade+, the Islanders have had a brighter future. It just has never arrived for them.

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12-30-2012, 04:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So are LA and Boston rules to be followed or exceptions?

We have a lottery pick from 3 of the last 7 drafts. You're only going to get so many.
They had Drew Doughty on their team as well as Anze Kopitar and plenty of other elite players.

We need someone like Kopitar. Perhaps we have a less defensive version of DOughty in Rielly.

Unfortunately as the chart shows you, the odds are higher of finding the next Kopitar in the 1-5 range rather than where he was taken.

Even then we need many more key pieces.

The odds of finding key pieces are just much better earlier in the draft. I dont even know why I should have to say it. If Toronto thinks they are good with the prospects they have they are wrong. THey need better ones. If Toronto thinks the NHL roster they have is good enough they are wrong it is **** and was 5th last.

This is all Burke's fault.

Plenty of teams have turned it around far quicker than this fat oaf.

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12-30-2012, 04:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I think you can say over the past decade+, the Islanders have had a brighter future. It just has never arrived for them.
You nor I can predict the future.

People speculate that their young talent is much greater than ours is, and is the reason for their hype, but it's just speculation. Things work out sometimes, sometimes they dont. We'll see what happens.

I know you wont tell me you're glad the Leafs were so much better than the Islanders in 2009 when we drafted Kadri instead of John Tavares.

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12-30-2012, 04:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Why? That still won't produce the "results" many deem necessary. Just ask Edmonton.
It's only a matter of time for Edmonton fans to reap the rewards, you only have to go over the rosters of the two teams. And it hasn't even been seven years out of the playoffs for the Oil.

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12-30-2012, 04:44 PM
  #91
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It's only a matter of time for Edmonton fans to reap the rewards, you only have to go over the rosters of the two teams. And it hasn't even been seven years out of the playoffs for the Oil.
I dont get how some fans can be impossibly patient with the failure that is Brian Burke in Toronto, but not even wait for Ryan Nugent Hopkins to turn 20, Nail Yakupov to play a game, and so on. Pretty impatient with teenage players if you ask me.

Just makes their whole stance transparently obvious. They dont really want to seriously discuss the issues, just kick and scream in defence of the fat managers that are ruining this franchise and bash every other team, manager, and player to do so.

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12-30-2012, 06:27 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Previous to becoming GM of the Leafs, JFJ was a scout for San Jose. He had shown no ability whatsoever to be in a management role. Let alone one that comes with the pressures of the NHL largest market. Furthermore, Pat Quinn should never have been let go. He was on a string of playoff appearances but was forced out because ownership thought they could run the team better. It was an insult to a great man and good GM.

JFJ was young and controllable. Quinn was not. When Burke was hired, he made it abundantly clear he would only accept the position if he was given complete autonomy in hockey operations. It was known league wide that JFJ was nothing more then a puppet.
as someone has pointed out, that's absolutely incorrect.

jfj was assistant gm, vp, and director of hockey operations with the blues. prior to that he was both an amateur and pro scout for the senators. he had lots of hockey experience, was an up and coming gm. no reason an nhl team wouldn't hire him to be their gm. he actually had quite a bit more experience when he was hired by the leafs than peter chiarelli did when he was hired by the bruins.

you're judging jfj strictly on the short time he had with the leafs. you have a clear double standard if you don't feel he should have had 10 years before being judged.

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12-30-2012, 06:27 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
If Burke signed a contract that said he was not allowed to trade ANY FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS. I'd be fine wiht him getting a 3 year extension. The guy is an absolute TANK MACHINE. He's tanked every single season since arriving here and he hasn't even been trying!

We need to draft an ELITE 1C
We need to draft an ELITE G
We'll need to replace Kessel with an ELITE Forward prospect

In 2 years were competing for a cup
very true....ironic that he should be beloved by tank nation...as long as he doesn't trade away the picks.

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12-30-2012, 06:32 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
Well since the last year of the contract was not fair to him, do you think he deserves to redeem himself? He was rebuilding after all and the lockout was not fair for his last year to prove that his team can make the playoffs. Even a shortened season would not be fair to him.

We probably won't resign Connolly, Steckel, Lombardi so that gives him a lot of capspace to sign a good UFA.

If it were me I'd give him one more chance by giving him one more year.
I think the rebuilding starts with a new GM. Burke has done nothing positive for the team. We have some good prospects but overall they are rated in the bottom 50% of the league as a whole. He basically did a terrible job.

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12-30-2012, 06:53 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
You nor I can predict the future.

People speculate that their young talent is much greater than ours is, and is the reason for their hype, but it's just speculation. Things work out sometimes, sometimes they dont. We'll see what happens.

I know you wont tell me you're glad the Leafs were so much better than the Islanders in 2009 when we drafted Kadri instead of John Tavares.
Nope. That was thanks to Burke's biggest mistake: picking up Gerber on waivers.

I know you go on and on about the Kessel trade, but Burke got a young star back. The Gerber pickup was shockingly uneccessarry and made zero sense. They were out of the playoffs already and had 2 goalies in CUJO and Pogge to finish the year.

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12-30-2012, 09:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
as someone has pointed out, that's absolutely incorrect.

jfj was assistant gm, vp, and director of hockey operations with the blues. prior to that he was both an amateur and pro scout for the senators. he had lots of hockey experience, was an up and coming gm. no reason an nhl team wouldn't hire him to be their gm. he actually had quite a bit more experience when he was hired by the leafs than peter chiarelli did when he was hired by the bruins.

you're judging jfj strictly on the short time he had with the leafs. you have a clear double standard if you don't feel he should have had 10 years before being judged.
That's kind of funny isn't it.

Give the GM with 12 years experience 10 years to rebuild a franchise, but give the rookie GM 4 years.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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12-30-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I spelled out in full what I want: meaningful results

That means making the playoffs. It isnt hard to do. Over half the league does it. One of the easiest formatted leagues in all of sports for post-season.

And if being above average is unattainable, get prospects in our system that will for certain make a difference down the road.

Borrowing this from another thread showing probability of top6 forward top4 defence draft odds:

Probability by 5 pick "blocks"

BlockAvg % 
1 to 584 
6 to 1042 
11 to 1542 
16 to 2030 
21 to 2536 
26 to 3024 

Clearly late round picks are not meaningful and no where near as good as lottery picks.

Maybe Brian Burke needs to see this.

In conclusion, either win or get a lottery pick. I'm sick of this middle of the road ******** Burke has dragged us through
I would have to disagree. He has restocked the shelves, became one of the youngest teams and provide Eakins with a winning group, that will one day be leafs or part of packages that become leafs. He turned crap into apple pie.

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12-30-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pelletier666 View Post
I think the rebuilding starts with a new GM. Burke has done nothing positive for the team. We have some good prospects but overall they are rated in the bottom 50% of the league as a whole. He basically did a terrible job.
wow, you contradictied yourself in the same post.

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12-30-2012, 10:39 PM
  #99
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wow, you contradictied yourself in the same post.
Not really.

If he inherited some similarly good prospects at the beginning of his tenure, you could argue he's done nothing positive.

I can't really remember if there were any decent prospects at the time, but you're reading into a contradiction.

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12-30-2012, 10:47 PM
  #100
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The one thing that people never mention is name someone (who is avaialble) that would do or would have done a better job.

Saying, "Well whoever it was would have done better because they wouldn't have done what Burke did" doesn't count.

It is also annoying to see people complain that picks have been traded away BUT don't acknowledge the ones that have been brought in. I'm sorry but that is not fair and agenda driven. You want more picks to develop, yet when they are acquired, you don't acknowledge them and only harp on what is gone.

I see it from both sides. Two first have been traded, and yes they were traded at the wrong time. But 5 firsts have also been acquired. Yes not the quality of the two gone, but they are there, and need to be acknowledged.

Also JFJ got the Leafs close cause he inherited reminants of Quinn's playoff teams. Burke inherited JFJs wet turds of a team. People with an agenda always fail to acknowlege that, and spin it around. Ya people with opposite agendas spin it too much the other way, but seriously, JFJ inherited gold compared to Burke.

Also, had Burke traded Rask and made the Toskala trade, people with anti-Burke agendas would be up his ass so bad, but because it was JFJ who did it, not as big of a deal.

People also harp on the results. Yes they suck, and last year we saw a regression. Remember New Jersey? They saw a regression. Should Lou be fired? Before you say, well ya they were good before. Well, its cause Lou did a great job inheriting the team from.... Lou. Burke inherited a **** team from a **** GM.

And Burke's picks not making it? Cmon that is not fair. Burke's oldest pick is what, 22? And one of them, Kadri would like be in the show if not for the lockout.

Once again I invite everyone to look at everything from both sides. Burke dealt two picks that had poor timing and judgement. He still got Kessel and made deals for Phaneuf and Lupul and Gardiner.

I'm not happy we stink. But I also know that us sucking pre-2009 is not Burke's fault, so I don't put the blame on him for that. And you can't become a contender overnight. So even 2010 and 2011 its tough to blame him. Maybe he made poor decisions, but he also can't turn something around overnight, especially the junk he inherited.

I also find it unfair to the people who get mad at what he says and then he contradicts himself. Sometimes he does a piss poor job with that for sure. But also, things change, you need to adjust. It happens in real life. You are building a house and want it one way and say that his how u want it. Half way through, you run out of that style of bricks, the only thing you can do is adjust and get different bricks. I for one try not to put stock in what he says long term, cause you know what, things change and you have to adapt. I like that the man also has balls to make a move, whereas what when did JFJ make a game chanigng deal mid-season?

We screw up vs the Canucks, Burke sees enough and deals for Phaneuf. JFJ wouldn't have done that, he would have waited til the offseason and still not made a ballsy trade, but instead a medium sized one with little impact or of negative impact. Kessel deal may have a negative impact, but he had the balls to actually do it, while at this point Phaneuf and Lupul deals have been positive, and they were midseason.
Any Burke thread (or related thread which will be shifted to Burke) just ends up the same anyways. As for me, If we play hockey this year and by this time next year it is still crap, maybe I will be more angry like Bomber, Hotpws, Camacho, Disgruntled etc..

But for now I find it unfair to put the blame on the man this soon. He's made some mistakes but also done some good things. Call it luke warm.

Just look at both sides people, and don't throw the other side out the window cause you are sticking to an agenda.

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