As I've said a number of times elsewhere, scoring goals is the only good thing Bourque does any more. There he has been pretty comparable to Cole or Gionta. Other than that though, his tendency over the past two seasons has been to for Bourque's presence on a line to result in less offense for his linemates and for more goals against in Montreal or Calgary.
I'd put a big contrast here on him vs. Kostitsyn. While Kostitsyn isn't good enough to carry an offense nor suited for a pure shutdown role he's an ideal 5th winger. He's the one with the balanced skill set to be a very useful complimentary player.
I personally find Bourque more suited for a 5th winger role in MTL, specially if paired with Eller and a guy like Prust/Moen. AK liked to carry the puck, where as Bourque is just a shooter, so this allows to Eller to carry the puck more who is pretty creative and a good puck handler.
Again I could see how many would rather keep AK instead of Bourque, but to me at least Bourque can be put on the pk if he isn't producing, while AK was useless if he wasn't scoring.
I personally find Bourque more suited for a 5th winger role in MTL, specially if paired with Eller and a guy like Prust/Moen. AK liked to carry the puck, where as Bourque is just a shooter, so this allows to Eller to carry the puck more who is pretty creative and a good puck handler.
Again I could see how many would rather keep AK instead of Bourque, but to me at least Bourque can be put on the pk if he isn't producing, while AK was useless if he wasn't scoring.
PK winger is hardly an area of need for Montreal. Bourque is no great shakes at it, Moen, Prust (now), Darche (last year) and Gionta are all better at it.
And while Kostitsyn was never a PK player he had fairly decent ES defense once we got deeper into the Martin era. He also has been a fairly decent passer as well as shooter and can play both finesse (13-14-46) or physical (32-81-46) styles and be effective. You could slot him in as a complimentary offensive player on a 1st line or as the leading offensive player on a third line. He also played on both shutdown and pure scoring units and on either wing. Plus his offense is stronger on ES than the powerplay, which is usually what you want from offensive depth players. He could do a lot for you so long as he was deep in your lineup and you weren't counting on him to score every night.
As it was, he consistantly was about league average for a 2nd line winger. When he was the teams 5th best winger (start of 2011-12) rather than the 2nd or 3rd Montreal was sitting pretty in that position.
PK winger is hardly an area of need for Montreal. Bourque is no great shakes at it, Moen, Prust (now), Darche (last year) and Gionta are all better at it.
And while Kostitsyn was never a PK player he had fairly decent ES defense once we got deeper into the Martin era. He also has been a fairly decent passer as well as shooter and can play both finesse (13-14-46) or physical (32-81-46) styles and be effective. You could slot him in as a complimentary offensive player on a 1st line or as the leading offensive player on a third line. He also played on both shutdown and pure scoring units and on either wing. Plus his offense is stronger on ES than the powerplay, which is usually what you want from offensive depth players. He could do a lot for you so long as he was deep in your lineup and you weren't counting on him to score every night.
As it was, he consistantly was about league average for a 2nd line winger. When he was the teams 5th best winger (start of 2011-12) rather than the 2nd or 3rd Montreal was sitting pretty in that position.
All good points, but Bourque just produces at a higher rate. Habs many issue is goal scoring, both Dudley and Bergevin said that was a key issue. I just rather have Bourque than AK.
I really liked AK while he was here, but I don't think I'll ever forgot how bad he was during the 2010 playoff run, when he had 3 goals in 19 playoff games, all of which came in the same game.
All good points, but Bourque just produces at a higher rate. Habs many issue is goal scoring, both Dudley and Bergevin said that was a key issue. I just rather have Bourque than AK.
I really liked AK while he was here, but I don't think I'll ever forgot how bad he was during the 2010 playoff run, when he had 3 goals in 19 playoff games, all of which came in the same game.
I peg a lot of that to how incredibly overmatched the Habs were in general that playoffs. That was not a normal situation in the slightest. Its pretty hard to score when you spend the vast majority of the game in your own end. And you can hardly blame Kostitsyn for that, it was a combination of an odd strategy and a defense that couldn't move the puck forward combined with the incredible strength of opposition that were the primary causes. Cammalleri and Gionta were super-human in how the generated their offense during that stretch, something Cammalleri has gotten credit for but not so much Gionta.
Then again, factor in the relative talents of Kostitsyn to Gionta/Cammalleri that season. Both those two played like ~35 goal men in 09-10 in stark contrast to the Habs depth on goal scoring. Kostitsyn was just the 20 goal man he pretty much always is.
Now the thing with Bourque and goals over the past two years aren't the ones he personally scores, its the ones his linemates could have got but didn't with that ice time. On ES Bourque scores goals like Cole or Gionta, around 1 per hour. That's really good, what you'd want from a top line (but not star) goal scoring winger. The thing is there is a disappearing act for his teammates goals. He's scoring 1 goal and hour and his team is scoring only about 2. Which is far below average in the NHL (ballpark about 2.5). Same thing applies for shots, I'd estimate he's getting about half his team's forward shots as he's getting about 35% of the total and the normal breakdown is 75% forward, 25% defense on ES. Basically, he'd have to be as good a goal scorer as Pacioretty was last year (about 1.5 per hour) which is top of the top elite Stamkos/Malkin territory to get good overall offense from Bourque's line given how his teammates goals are disappearing.
This would be understandable if he was getting weak linemates that can't score, but that wasn't the case. His main centers over this two year stretch were Jokinen and Plekanec, both far above average goal-scoring centerman.
I think if your looking for a good linemate for Bourque you'd have to go for someone that doesn't rely on their own goalscoring at all for offense like Gomez or Desharnais rather than Eller who is both shooter and playmaker.
Well, I think the correct decision is to acquire the kind of winger depth that would let Eller play with a Kostitsyn level winger all the time allowing the three line offense MTL had to start the 2011-12 campaign which was producing some very impressing ES results before it got derailed about 20 games into the year. Which is a big reason I was so against parking 2.5 million on Prust.
But if they are going to insist on a grinder based line strategy using Eller as King of the Grinders is probably the only way to make it work.
I agree. I just think it would be a mistake to make Eller the king of grinders. IMO he has more reachable potential. With Gally coming around in the next couple of years, it's unavoidable that one of Plek-DD-Eller will need to be moved to the wing.
Eller reminds me a bit of a Plekanec, who's solid defensively, and could be looked at as a pure dominant shutdown center, but I think this kid would explode offensively, like Plek did, if you gave him the proper tools.
Which is one of the main reason I kept raging on RC last year when he dismantled the solid duo of Eller-AK.
I'm in agreement with Prust too. I would have much rather seen a decently skilled winger in order to give us a more offensive top 9.
It's never early to speculate what kind of player he's going to be in his prime... While I would love him to be a 60-70pt #1 center who can play a two way game like a Mikko Koivu, I don't really see him reaching that. It's not so much a knock on him though because M Koivu is an elite talent. I think Eller will be vital to the habs success in the future because of his two-way play more so than his untapped offensive potential
No harm in projecting a players top level... but it's all speculation. A lot of this board is. That's the fun part
I don't think 60 pt is necessarily a ceiling. I think Eller could regularly put up around 55pts as a 2nd line center. But we need to see more of him in an offensive role. It's impossible to establish a ceiling when the guy is used 99% of the time in a shutdown role.
I peg a lot of that to how incredibly overmatched the Habs were in general that playoffs. That was not a normal situation in the slightest. Its pretty hard to score when you spend the vast majority of the game in your own end. And you can hardly blame Kostitsyn for that, it was a combination of an odd strategy and a defense that couldn't move the puck forward combined with the incredible strength of opposition that were the primary causes. Cammalleri and Gionta were super-human in how the generated their offense during that stretch, something Cammalleri has gotten credit for but not so much Gionta.
Then again, factor in the relative talents of Kostitsyn to Gionta/Cammalleri that season. Both those two played like ~35 goal men in 09-10 in stark contrast to the Habs depth on goal scoring. Kostitsyn was just the 20 goal man he pretty much always is.
Now the thing with Bourque and goals over the past two years aren't the ones he personally scores, its the ones his linemates could have got but didn't with that ice time. On ES Bourque scores goals like Cole or Gionta, around 1 per hour. That's really good, what you'd want from a top line (but not star) goal scoring winger. The thing is there is a disappearing act for his teammates goals. He's scoring 1 goal and hour and his team is scoring only about 2. Which is far below average in the NHL (ballpark about 2.5). Same thing applies for shots, I'd estimate he's getting about half his team's forward shots as he's getting about 35% of the total and the normal breakdown is 75% forward, 25% defense on ES. Basically, he'd have to be as good a goal scorer as Pacioretty was last year (about 1.5 per hour) which is top of the top elite Stamkos/Malkin territory to get good overall offense from Bourque's line given how his teammates goals are disappearing.
This would be understandable if he was getting weak linemates that can't score, but that wasn't the case. His main centers over this two year stretch were Jokinen and Plekanec, both far above average goal-scoring centerman.
I think if your looking for a good linemate for Bourque you'd have to go for someone that doesn't rely on their own goalscoring at all for offense like Gomez or Desharnais rather than Eller who is both shooter and playmaker.
Some really good points, specially with the Bourque stats. I don't see the Patches-DD-Cole to be split up to start the year, but if Bourque can work on a line with DD it would give us a lot of good options, seeing how he can play both LW and RW.
Some really good points, specially with the Bourque stats. I don't see the Patches-DD-Cole to be split up to start the year, but if Bourque can work on a line with DD it would give us a lot of good options, seeing how he can play both LW and RW.
I agree. I just think it would be a mistake to make Eller the king of grinders. IMO he has more reachable potential. With Gally coming around in the next couple of years, it's unavoidable that one of Plek-DD-Eller will need to be moved to the wing.
Eller reminds me a bit of a Plekanec, who's solid defensively, and could be looked at as a pure dominant shutdown center, but I think this kid would explode offensively, like Plek did, if you gave him the proper tools.
Which is one of the main reason I kept raging on RC last year when he dismantled the solid duo of Eller-AK.
I'm in agreement with Prust too. I would have much rather seen a decently skilled winger in order to give us a more offensive top 9.
Well I don't think offensive skill exactly dies if a guy isn't being used in an offensive role. We've seen a few times were a really young good two-way player suddenly explodes offensively in their later 20's when they get put in a offensive role (Kesler is a great example). It will be masked though and with the org's current moves I don't think there will be much getting around it until depth on wing is regenerated through prospects graduations who will play top nine for cheap. Gallagher and Leblanc being likely candidates 1-2 years from now.
If we're talking the next 2-3 years with 4 quality centers I think the best option is to bit the bullet on Galchenyuk and have him start his career as a winger. As we can see with his play in Sarnia, he's efficient in all forward positions. Some guys (such as Benn, Giroux, E. Staal) are like that and you only need to put them at center when they are so clearly better than their teammates that you need to run the entire game through them as you only can with the centerman. As good a prospect as Gally is, I wouldn't expect him to be by far and away better than any of the Habs current C's until he's 20-21. 3 years is long enough down the road that the landscape is sure to be quite a bit different then anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03
Some really good points, specially with the Bourque stats. I don't see the Patches-DD-Cole to be split up to start the year, but if Bourque can work on a line with DD it would give us a lot of good options, seeing how he can play both LW and RW.
Pretty much. The way I see it, Pacioretty is the only LW in the roster that would be an asset for the role Plekanec plays so I'd like to see them together. They also have been a very dangerous combination the limited time they've played together, the makings of the quality first line on both sides of the puck. Gionta being the natural fit on right wing. Otherwise, I'd rather see Armstrong as Pleks LW than Bourque. He's a decent ES forward when healthy and as fewer downsides even if he's no world beater.
Cole does a lot to cover for Desharnais weak points so I like them playing together. Bourque could be part of that.
If there is no ammnesty buyouts and Gomez is still with the team I'd be curious to pair him and Bourque together. They have completely opposite disfunctions right now and one may be able to get the most out of the other's remaining skill sets.
Pacioretty Eller Desharnais
Bourque Plekanec Cole
Moen Gomez Gionta
Prust White Armstrong
The longer the lockout the more likely Gally is to start with the big club. To me this means one of our vet will suffer from a demotion. Eller in my opinion is a lock at center on the third line. Also i believe that the experience of putting patches with cole and dd showed the team the we had to put biggerbguys with our dimminutive centers. For all these reasons i have a problem seeing Gionta on one of the top two lines....
Imo if hockey where to pick up after the WJC the lineup would look like this...
Gally, Plekanek, Bourque
Pacs, Desharnais, Cole
Prust, Eller, Gionta
Moen, White, Armstrong
