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Old
12-30-2012, 11:50 PM
  #76
Qward
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
A 2nd rounder is what, a 50-50 chance to become an NHLer? If even that. But it's still not something that should just be thrown about. I don't mind the trade, but it's certainly not a no-brainer that it was a good move. Lehner could've been brought up, or a cheaper option could've been brought in. Stars come out of the second round every year.

And how can anyone ever be "set" with a prospect pool?
History shows only 25% of 2nd rounders become career NHL players (playing 200 games or more)

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12-30-2012, 11:57 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
History shows only 25% of 2nd rounders become career NHL players (playing 200 games or more)
We've been quite spoiled with picks. Ottawa is good at drafting so perhaps we should keep our picks. Since the lockout, regardless of where we're picking, we've had Meszaros (23), Lee (bad), Foligno (28), O'Brien (29), EK (15), Cowen (9) plus 2nd rounders like Wiercioch and Silfverberg (falls in line with 25%).

We need to draft or get another young goalie prospect. I look forward to Bishop vs Lehner, it's clear who everyone is rooting for but goalies are hard to predict, so it was a good trade to give some flexibilty.

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12-31-2012, 12:26 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
You can't underestimate the influence that a veteran D like Redden could have on the team, especially with such a young core.

I believe he could still be an NHL caliber defenseman. Half of you guys think Carkner is a top 4 guy for gods sake.

Redden as a #6 would be fine with me. The problem with Redden has been his price tag. He's not a $6 Million man anymore. He's not a top 4 guy anymore.

He would be good for depth, veteran experience and leadership roles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
We're set in the sense that we've got depth in our cupboard at all positions, so moving a few futures for assets that can have an immediate impact (like a 2nd for Bishop) is a reasonable course of action. Especially when that future is a 2nd round pick in a draft that many think was less deep than normal.

I'm in no way trying to say second rounders are meaningless, or that we can just stop drafting now because we've got depth in the cupboard.
In what world did any Sens fan think Carkner was top 4 material?

Sometimes this board is so bipolar. Didn't a majority of Sens fans wanted to trade Phillips because he was on the decline? Now you want to bring back Redden so he can provide veteran leadership? Well isn't trading Phillips removing some veteran leadership?

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12-31-2012, 01:25 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
A 2nd rounder is what, a 50-50 chance to become an NHLer? If even that. But it's still not something that should just be thrown about. I don't mind the trade, but it's certainly not a no-brainer that it was a good move. Lehner could've been brought up, or a cheaper option could've been brought in. Stars come out of the second round every year.

And how can anyone ever be "set" with a prospect pool?
It's probably less than 50%.

All you need to do is check out the hockeydb draft page for any team. In a good year you may have 1 or 2 guys that play in the NHL for any significant amount of time, period.

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12-31-2012, 01:27 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
A 2nd rounder is what, a 50-50 chance to become an NHLer? If even that. But it's still not something that should just be thrown about. I don't mind the trade, but it's certainly not a no-brainer that it was a good move. Lehner could've been brought up, or a cheaper option could've been brought in. Stars come out of the second round every year.

And how can anyone ever be "set" with a prospect pool?
I believe 1st rounders are closer to 50/50. 2nd rounder is a crap shoot.

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12-31-2012, 01:44 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Alfredsson View Post
In what world did any Sens fan think Carkner was top 4 material?

Sometimes this board is so bipolar. Didn't a majority of Sens fans wanted to trade Phillips because he was on the decline? Now you want to bring back Redden so he can provide veteran leadership? Well isn't trading Phillips removing some veteran leadership?
Do a search and find your answers.

In a pure business sense, Philly should have been traded. He's clearly past his best before date, and if you can't see that...sorry for you.

Besides, I haven't seen anyone advocate the trading of Phillips here. Have you?

Apples and pairs mon frere.

The whole idea of re-acquiring Redden is for depth. For veteran leadership. Two things he can still offer.

Nobody is saying sign Redden and the cup is ours, just let's think about the possibility of signing a guy that has a significant history with our franchise, and that probably still has enough left in the tank to contribute in a diminished role, and at the same time can be a positive influence on our young guys of the future.

I hate all these "cola" comments, which seem to have been deleted.

Most of you can't imagine this, but if you're a young guy, getting paid, a local celebrity with women available 24/7...you're going to take the high road?

Really?

I don't care if Redden ever took drugs or not. Given his circumstances at the time...if he did...so what? Are the rest of us above that temptation?

Most of us PAY to play hockey in whatever rec league. None of us really know what it's like to be a teenager / young adult with millions of dollars, fame and a bunch of predatory females after our wallets.

In any event, Reds would be the old guy / vet on the team now. He's married, etc.

If he is still caught up in the party life, assuming he ever was, then he has more problems than trying to find a paycheck somewhere.

These rumors about him, true or not, are in the distant past.

I'd welcome Wade back in an instant. Even if he has a past history of excess, he could be a guy to dissuade the younger guys on the team from slipping in to that life.

IF he becomes available, I'd be happy to see Wade back in Ottawa.

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12-31-2012, 02:02 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Do a search and find your answers.

In a pure business sense, Philly should have been traded. He's clearly past his best before date, and if you can't see that...sorry for you.

Besides, I haven't seen anyone advocate the trading of Phillips here. Have you?

Apples and pairs mon frere.

The whole idea of re-acquiring Redden is for depth. For veteran leadership. Two things he can still offer.

Nobody is saying sign Redden and the cup is ours, just let's think about the possibility of signing a guy that has a significant history with our franchise, and that probably still has enough left in the tank to contribute in a diminished role, and at the same time can be a positive influence on our young guys of the future.

I hate all these "cola" comments, which seem to have been deleted.

Most of you can't imagine this, but if you're a young guy, getting paid, a local celebrity with women available 24/7...you're going to take the high road?

Really?

I don't care if Redden ever took drugs or not. Given his circumstances at the time...if he did...so what? Are the rest of us above that temptation?

Most of us PAY to play hockey in whatever rec league. None of us really know what it's like to be a teenager / young adult with millions of dollars, fame and a bunch of predatory females after our wallets.

In any event, Reds would be the old guy / vet on the team now. He's married, etc.

If he is still caught up in the party life, assuming he ever was, then he has more problems than trying to find a paycheck somewhere.

These rumors about him, true or not, are in the distant past.

I'd welcome Wade back in an instant. Even if he has a past history of excess, he could be a guy to dissuade the younger guys on the team from slipping in to that life.

IF he becomes available, I'd be happy to see Wade back in Ottawa.
I remember quite clearly that a number of fans advocated trading Philly while his value is still high and re-acquiring him here to retire as a Senator.

For the record I am not against signing Redden to a bottom pairing role.

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Old
12-31-2012, 02:38 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
To start the season, it is. Bishop will get us at least a 2nd back at the deadline if we're shopping him, IMO. Lehner can back Andy up for the playoffs.

Worst case scenario: we rented Bishop for a year and it will have cost us essentially nothing.
I thought Bishop becomes a UFA after this season unless he plays ~20 more NHL games because of his age. Group 6 ufa or something? I'm foggy on the details but I thought this was the case.

If that's the case we aren't getting a 2nd for him.

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12-31-2012, 04:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BumperStumper View Post
I think we need another defenseman, weicioch is too young to just get popped into the top 4
Was Karlsson?

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12-31-2012, 07:13 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DylanSensFan View Post
Was Karlsson?
I would put an asterix behind BumperStumper's comment:
"Weircioch is too young to just get dropped into the top 4... without an insurance plan"

An insurance plan won't cost us much. No reason not to have one.

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12-31-2012, 08:33 AM
  #86
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Also if we sign redden if he plays 6 games he will reach 1000.

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12-31-2012, 08:45 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DylanSensFan View Post
Was Karlsson?
If you expect other defensemen to follow karlssons development path you are going to be disappointed 99.9% of the time.

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12-31-2012, 09:21 AM
  #88
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Karlsson looked lost in his first stint in the NHL.

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12-31-2012, 10:34 AM
  #89
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Karlsson looked lost in his first stint in the NHL.

Wiercioch didn't

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12-31-2012, 12:26 PM
  #90
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Wiercioch didn't
Neither did Filatov.

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12-31-2012, 12:36 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post
Do a search and find your answers.

In a pure business sense, Philly should have been traded. He's clearly past his best before date, and if you can't see that...sorry for you.

Besides, I haven't seen anyone advocate the trading of Phillips here. Have you?

Apples and pairs mon frere.

The whole idea of re-acquiring Redden is for depth. For veteran leadership. Two things he can still offer.

Nobody is saying sign Redden and the cup is ours, just let's think about the possibility of signing a guy that has a significant history with our franchise, and that probably still has enough left in the tank to contribute in a diminished role, and at the same time can be a positive influence on our young guys of the future.

I hate all these "cola" comments, which seem to have been deleted.

Most of you can't imagine this, but if you're a young guy, getting paid, a local celebrity with women available 24/7...you're going to take the high road?

Really?

I don't care if Redden ever took drugs or not. Given his circumstances at the time...if he did...so what? Are the rest of us above that temptation?

Most of us PAY to play hockey in whatever rec league. None of us really know what it's like to be a teenager / young adult with millions of dollars, fame and a bunch of predatory females after our wallets.

In any event, Reds would be the old guy / vet on the team now. He's married, etc.

If he is still caught up in the party life, assuming he ever was, then he has more problems than trying to find a paycheck somewhere.

These rumors about him, true or not, are in the distant past.

I'd welcome Wade back in an instant. Even if he has a past history of excess, he could be a guy to dissuade the younger guys on the team from slipping in to that life.

IF he becomes available, I'd be happy to see Wade back in Ottawa.
Redden won't be signed in Ottawa, Murray knew he was done years ago when he wanted to trade him and Redden vetoed. The Sens have Alfie, Phillips, Gonchar, Spezza and Neil to provide veteran leadership.

Redden serves no purpose, as a matter of fact probably a negative as he would just take up the space for Boro or Gryba.

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12-31-2012, 12:41 PM
  #92
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Neither did Filatov.
You weren't watching.

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12-31-2012, 12:53 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Redden was a +player every year with the exception of 1 with us. Even then, he was a minus 1.

Mandy just doesn't want him back because as soon as a player hits 30 he is dead in Mandy's eyes.
no but they are old

Redden just plain sucks. Average AHL d-man, you can't expect him to be top 4 in the NHL. Please. Remember his last season in New York. He's worse than that now. Scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Lehner absolutely needed more time in the AHL. Even this year, Lehner NEEDED to spend time in the AHL. He needed it. He needed to tart games. Look at how he's doing? He's dominating. He needed one solid year of dominant play in the AHL. He needed the confidence. He needed to show the consistency. He's doing that now. We had no idea the lockout would go into January. Bishop provided the insurance we needed to let Lehner develop properly. He would be the NHL backup, and give Lehner the time he needed to have that year long stretch of play that would really separate him from the pack. I think if Lehner is in the NHL this year as a backup, and isn't allowed to really shine as an everyday starter, it really, REALLY hurts his development.

I don't give a **** about Lehner as a backup goalie
. Like, not even a little. He's not a backup. I care about him as our next starting goalie. And to that effect, I want to give him every chance and every opportunity to be the best starter he can be... and in my mind that absolutely includes starting as many games as possible. Bishop lets him do that, at the moment. He's a huge reason why Lehner is dominating right now, IMO: a kick in the arse to motivate him, as well as (if the lockout hadn't happened) allow him to start a ton of games in the AHL.

Goalies develop by starting games when they're young. Not by riding the pine as an NHL backup. I'm 150% behind the Bishop trade, even if he never plays another game for us.
Lehner has dominated in the past in the AHL. We knew he was capable of it, and he played extremely well in the NHL too.

Even in 2011-12, I thought it wasn't really necessary to sign Auld. But I thought well for sure he'll be in the NHL in 2012-13. But then they got Bishop

There is Zero need. He's NHL ready.



Even if you think Lehner should in the AHL this year, regardless of the lockout, just to play many games, you don't give up a 2nd rounder in a deep draft for a backup. There's no way around it. Sign a backup goalie in free agency or give up a 6th rounder. Not a 2nd rounder.

Anderson = #1 goalie of the present
Lehner = #1 goalie of the future who is ready/almost ready

Bishop won't play many games. He will never get the Sens the value of a 2nd round pick back if they flip him.



And finally, Lehner and Anderson could split games in the NHL. Lehner wouldn't be riding the pine.

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12-31-2012, 12:54 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
You weren't watching.
didn't need to, he got a hat trick in his first game

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I would put an asterix behind BumperStumper's comment:
"Weircioch is too young to just get dropped into the top 4... without an insurance plan"

An insurance plan won't cost us much. No reason not to have one.
Methot, Karlsson, Phillips, Gonchar

not sure whether or not you're saying Redden is the insurance plan, cause if you are that is so wrong

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12-31-2012, 07:23 PM
  #95
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Methot, Karlsson, Phillips, Gonchar

not sure whether or not you're saying Redden is the insurance plan, cause if you are that is so wrong
Wait... I'm saying I want Redden as an insurance 6/7 depth guy. A guy who, if something happens and our young guys don't produce, we have an experienced vet who can still play a bottom pairing role if asked. Insurance in case of an injury. You know... defensive depth.

... and I'm wrong to think that he would make good DEPTH insurance (read: bottom pairing guy who can be the 7th pressbox guy or play 40 games a year if our kids don't show up) because... we have 4 guys already to play on our 1st and 2nd pairings?

Isn't that my point? That after Karlsson/Methot/Gonchar/Phillips, our defence is phenomenally unproven at the NH level? That it would be great to have some depth for our 5/6/7/8 spots? Because injuries happen, ESPECIALLY in a condensed season with no real training camp?

Maybe it's because I'm hungover as **** right now, but I don't follow why "I'm so wrong".

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12-31-2012, 07:30 PM
  #96
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Lehner has dominated in the past in the AHL. We knew he was capable of it, and he played extremely well in the NHL too.

Even in 2011-12, I thought it wasn't really necessary to sign Auld. But I thought well for sure he'll be in the NHL in 2012-13. But then they got Bishop

There is Zero need. He's NHL ready.



Even if you think Lehner should in the AHL this year, regardless of the lockout, just to play many games, you don't give up a 2nd rounder in a deep draft for a backup. There's no way around it. Sign a backup goalie in free agency or give up a 6th rounder. Not a 2nd rounder.

Anderson = #1 goalie of the present
Lehner = #1 goalie of the future who is ready/almost ready

Bishop won't play many games. He will never get the Sens the value of a 2nd round pick back if they flip him.



And finally, Lehner and Anderson could split games in the NHL. Lehner wouldn't be riding the pine.
Look, the issue between you and I in this argument is that we have, at the very root of this debate, much different philosophies on how to properly develop prospects. From my point of view on "how goalie prospects should be handled" (give them as many starts as possible for as long as possible), the Bishop trade was invaluable. From your point of view (a half-season's worth of impressive starts = NHL ready), the Bishop trade was a bad one.

The sooner we both realize that our differences here stem from you just not knowing how to properly develop prospects, the better.

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12-31-2012, 07:34 PM
  #97
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I'd bring back Redden at near the league minimum as 6/7 guy.

Sure you could argue that he may steal time away from a younger player/prospect, but you also have to keep in mind you don't want those players watching in the press box for games at a time.

Methot-Karlsson
Weircioch-Gonchar
Phillips-Lundin

Redden

Use Redden sparatically (last minute injuruies), and call up guys like Boro and Benoit for longer stints.

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12-31-2012, 07:37 PM
  #98
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Quote:
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You weren't watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
didn't need to, he got a hat trick in his first game
Exactly this. I was referring to Filatov's rookie year in Columbus.

If you want to project a player based on his first 10 games in the league, Filatov looked all-world. If you showed me nothing more than Filatov's first 10 games, and Weircioch's 8 NHL games, I'd take Filatov 100 times out of 100.

I'm clearly not saying Filly > Weir, I'm just saying you can't use 8 games and come to any conclusion of any kind.

You start making decisions like that on small sample sizes, and what you end up with is a guy like Fernando Pisani on a 4 year $10 mil contract.

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12-31-2012, 08:21 PM
  #99
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I am very happy with Andy as the #1, but I think it's pretty clear that Lehner's got a higher upside than Andy does.

The things you listed will come with experience. When I said that I think he is probably ready to challenge Andy now, I am speaking about his skill level.

Undoubtedly he will start as a backup, but you never know. Injuries happen. Maybe Andy decides to make chicken again...who knows?
I agree. Despite the fact Bishop will make NHL money in the AHL and we will likely end up losing him for nothing in return. Lehner has to be the backup. He has earned it. He is ready. Anderson is amazing but Lehner is ready to play and if he happens to play well enough he will push Anderson.

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01-01-2013, 04:18 AM
  #100
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If you expect other defensemen to follow karlssons development path you are going to be disappointed 99.9% of the time.
He is not taking the same path, he has spent his time in the AHL and developed. He is older than Karlsson was when Karlsson first arrived in Ottawa. Their path is no where similar. What I am saying is, this whole too young argument is BS.

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