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Old
12-28-2012, 09:22 AM
  #1
vikingGoalie
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We shall serve no prospects before their time.

I'm all for not rushing prospects, but good lord the WBS penguins are awful in many ways.

A Rhetorical question, is it truely better to have a promising propect languish on a bad team but get more minutes. Or is it better for them to go up with more talent but less minutes.

I'm trying to not use examples of specific players. My thoughts are that if players are playing the correct way even when others around them are not, or the results are not there that it's ok. BUT, I've seen this especially as a goalie but in general for all players where people tend to pick up bad habits and do things they shouldn't when you are not winning and nothing is working.
That's when you'll see that guy try to carry the puck when he shouldn't, or see the goalie over commit or play both the shot and the pass at the same time, etc.

I am not a frequent live watcher of the WBS pens, but some of what really stood out to me upon reflection is that Zatkoff has not been adversely effected yet, but I see some of the players on the team doing things that they might not do if everything is clicking. I am concerned that players like Morrow have regressed development wise and I'm not sure if that's a function of growing pains or the environment being non-conducive. But taking particular players out of the discussion, let's discuss this at a more concept/abstract level.

p.s.
I know this has been discussed from time to time in other threads, but thought it would be an interesting discussion on it's own. (if the mods don't agree then feel free to do what mods do)

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12-28-2012, 09:36 AM
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Milliardo
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That's where a good coach comes into play. Some players are more prone to picking up bad habits than others.

But to your question. If you're a guy that needs the puck on his stick, I don't think it's that bad to play on a bad team, because then you can grow into your role of being an important players who needs the puck. If you're a goalscorer and you need someone to feed you the puck but there is noone around to do so, you automatically start to change your game. You might improve in a lot of areas but maybe regress as a goal scorer. And some players will just sulk because they feel they should have better linemates. If you're like that, you have to be pretty damn good, otherwise you won't make it.

But the best goalies often come from bad teams, because they had to save the most shots and the same can be said for many good or great NHL players. They had to carry their team all the time and grew with the responsibility. No of course there are also players who fail because of that, because they want to keep puck hogging in the NHL. And then there is the opposite. Players who trive with good linemates and who get so used to it, they become useless against better competition.

So again, you have to look at every player individually to judge them and find out what is right for them.

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12-28-2012, 09:55 AM
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Good thread... just because the Pens developement system has gotten better doesn't mean its good.

To be honest... what have the Pens really done except rush skill on defense and doing a good job bringing along role players?

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12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
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Milliardo
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Good thread... just because the Pens developement system has gotten better doesn't mean its good.

To be honest... what have the Pens really done except rush skill on defense and doing a good job bringing along role players?
You're asking the wrong question. What legimate top 6 players have the Pens had in the last 10 years who spent significant time in the minors, i.e. where the Pens had a chance to develop them? You might be suprised if you check the list.

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12-28-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
You're asking the wrong question. What legimate top 6 players have the Pens had in the last 10 years who spent significant time in the minors, i.e. where the Pens had a chance to develop them? You might be suprised if you check the list.
Fair enough... I know the list is small and a lot of the top 10 propects still haven't seen WB. I'm just really bitter about how Whits and MAF were handled. I'm not sure what he's doing or even if he would be willing to do it but I would love to see Tocchet in WB. No nonsense for a team surrounded by puck bunnies but also great with the X's and O's.

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12-28-2012, 10:59 AM
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vikingGoalie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
You're asking the wrong question. What legimate top 6 players have the Pens had in the last 10 years who spent significant time in the minors, i.e. where the Pens had a chance to develop them? You might be suprised if you check the list.
define significant, no one is coming to mind. Kunitiz, Dupuis, Neal, Crosby, Malkin are 5 of our top 6. TK is NOT imo a legit top 6. He is a top 9 player. But we have always seemed to find our top 6 wingers elsewhere even our cup runs you look and see our top wingers come from the outside. Even looking at our defense last year.
Letang, 11 games in the AHL.
Niskanen/Martin/Michalek, FA
Orpik had 2 seasons in WBS.

So as far as our top ~4 D goes only one spent any real time in the A. This begs yet more questions. Are legit impact players typically aged in the AHL for 2 seasons? (i.e. top 4 D, or top 6 O) In our own team's case it seems the answer is no thus far. So are we overly optimistic that *this* time Morrow and Bennett will be impact players, because things will work out that way *this* time?

Personally I think those 2 have a legit chance to be top 4/top 6 in their respective areas, but we don't have a very good history of producing talent at those levels out of WBS. Is it because of the system or the talent we are drafting? dunno.

Dulomin has a shot if history is a guide, as gogo spent 3 seasons developing in the NCAA before spending 1 full season with WBS. But it looks kinda bleak for those coming straight from Juniors to WBS if they spend significant time there.

For myself I lean towards the side of putting people with legit talent in with other people with legit talent. They might not get the minutes, but I watched England in the A, he's is worlds better now after spending a full season in the NHL playing 3rd line minutes. I've seen that time and time again where a player that gets huge minutes in the AHL, gets called up and stays up for an extended period. They come back down for conditioning or just demoted and they are always way better then when they left. The coaching is better, the practices are key though you practice with top end talent just to stick with the team you better be keeping up in practice.
But I'm not 100% on that side yet, hence the thread

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12-28-2012, 11:21 AM
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Milliardo
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
define significant, no one is coming to mind. Kunitiz, Dupuis, Neal, Crosby, Malkin are 5 of our top 6. TK is NOT imo a legit top 6. He is a top 9 player. But we have always seemed to find our top 6 wingers elsewhere even our cup runs you look and see our top wingers come from the outside. Even looking at our defense last year.
Letang, 11 games in the AHL.
Niskanen/Martin/Michalek, FA
Orpik had 2 seasons in WBS.
That's actually the point, who was handled wrong here?

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12-28-2012, 11:50 AM
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Luca Caputi. We totally screwed up his development...

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12-28-2012, 11:52 AM
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Luca Caputi. We totally screwed up his development...
Don't forget Casey Pierro-Zabotel, he could've been a star.

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12-28-2012, 12:08 PM
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So when people say that the Pens know how to draft and develope defense.... does that also fly out the window?

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12-28-2012, 12:44 PM
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WBS has a great coach and he knows when a player is ready and when they are not. Many of the posters on this forum think they know when a player is ready but no one that I know has a high level coaching or scouting position that would make me take anything written on here as fact. I put my 2 cents in every day but no one here knows me so I don't expect my word to be taken as fact.
The fact is that Pitt has a great team year in and year out and they don't need to rush prospects like some other organizations do. There is NO ONE in WBS that is going to make a big difference in Pitt right now. When the season starts the guys that do move up are going to be 3rd or 4th liners and 5th, 6th ,& 7th D-men. The AHL is the development league not the NHL.


Last edited by bigd: 12-28-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 12:50 PM
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Don't forget Casey Pierro-Zabotel, he could've been a star.
You are joking, right?

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12-28-2012, 12:59 PM
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Shady Machine
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You are joking, right?
Yes, he was most definitely joking.

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12-28-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Fair enough... I know the list is small and a lot of the top 10 propects still haven't seen WB. I'm just really bitter about how Whits and MAF were handled. I'm not sure what he's doing or even if he would be willing to do it but I would love to see Tocchet in WB. No nonsense for a team surrounded by puck bunnies but also great with the X's and O's.
In what role? Associate, assistant, head?

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12-28-2012, 02:20 PM
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bigd
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In what role? Associate, assistant, head?
Coaching isn't the problem.

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12-28-2012, 04:07 PM
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Luca Caputi. We totally screwed up his development...
How on earth did the Penguins do that? That's ridiculous.

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12-28-2012, 04:22 PM
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How on earth did the Penguins do that? That's ridiculous.
I think he's being sarcastic.

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12-28-2012, 06:21 PM
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Coaching isn't the problem.
I agree. What do you feel are the team's biggest issues right now? Without betraying any confidences, of course.

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12-31-2012, 08:24 AM
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To be honest... what have the Pens really done except rush skill on defense and doing a good job bringing along role players?
If anything over the past 10 years the Pens have kept skill on defense (Ryan Whitney, Kris Letang, Alex Goligoski) in the AHL longer than needed due to numbers games or just to make certain development was ready.

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12-31-2012, 09:08 AM
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I feel shame that the mighty and powerful Luca Bazooka is on another team. Oh how the Penguins have fallen.

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12-31-2012, 09:24 AM
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I also think some people blame development on coaches when a lot of that is simply on the player. Yes... coaching can help develop a player. But it's also the potential he had that was drafted in the first place. If they don't live up to it or continue to grow, oh well.

I'm shocked some people are blaming the coaches. Some of our top prospects are very good players. That's more than we should ask for.

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12-31-2012, 09:24 AM
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The Hossa trade probably spared some "Penguins can't develop" talk too by getting rid of Esposito (who wouldn't have made it anywhere) and also considering the caliber of player available at 28th overall in 2008- the Thrashers took bust Daultan Leveille the next drafted North American skaters were Phil McRae, Nicolas Deschamps, Corey Trivino and Cody Goloubef all AHL caliber players or less. The Pens probably would have drafted a bust in the first round of 2008 unless they had the foresight to draft a little off the board for a Luke Adam or Derek Stepan reach pick.

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12-31-2012, 09:28 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
You're asking the wrong question. What legimate top 6 players have the Pens had in the last 10 years who spent significant time in the minors, i.e. where the Pens had a chance to develop them? You might be surprised if you check the list.
This is more of a knock against their scouting than anything. I have been questioning their picks for a long time. They only seem to scout based on convenience (drafting teammates of existing picks), or sons of once famous hockey players (is this Mario's doing favors for friends?) Samuelson, Bourque, Kuhnhackel, etc.

They keep wasting #1 picks on defenders which has been a position that has mostly been a crap shoot in the last 10 years. There aren't too many years where teams have correctly identified the top defensive talent in a draft. Top offensive talents are almost always identified correctly and drafted accordingly.

You almost never see the top offensive talent slip to the 2nd round, but the top defenders show up in late 1st round and 2nd round quite a bit.

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12-31-2012, 11:07 AM
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I agree. What do you feel are the team's biggest issues right now? Without betraying any confidences, of course.
I think they just have a lot of new guys that just aren't on the same page. I also think Bennett is being missed more than expected. They will turn it around in 2013.

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12-31-2012, 12:11 PM
  #25
Mr. T
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
This is more of a knock against their scouting than anything. I have been questioning their picks for a long time. They only seem to scout based on convenience (drafting teammates of existing picks), or sons of once famous hockey players (is this Mario's doing favors for friends?) Samuelson, Bourque, Kuhnhackel, etc.
Our scouting is far from perfect, but outside of Pouliot and Maatta, (who were both first round talents), what other teammates have been picked like that?

I agree that Samuelsson was a reach, but I'm not sure that Mario has much input on the draft. Erich Kuhnhackl spent his entire career in Germany (and retired in the late 80s), so if Mario did him a solid, he's a heck of guy. Also, Chris Bourque was a waiver pickup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
They keep wasting #1 picks on defenders which has been a position that has mostly been a crap shoot in the last 10 years. There aren't too many years where teams have correctly identified the top defensive talent in a draft. Top offensive talents are almost always identified correctly and drafted accordingly.

You almost never see the top offensive talent slip to the 2nd round, but the top defenders show up in late 1st round and 2nd round quite a bit.
I think we should wait a few years to label the Morrow, Pouliot and Maatta picks as having been wasted. I completely understand your point, but historically forwards have an easier time adjusting to the NHL than defensemen.

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