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When does Burke go all in like AA?

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Old
12-30-2012, 08:11 PM
  #76
Aplayaz2000
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Honestly Im pretty sure Team Canada world junior would beat them consistently.
now you're just delusional

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12-30-2012, 08:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
So are we to assume the Leafs are going to be smarter with their capspace than when they purchased:

Komisarek, Beauchemin, Orr, Exelby, Gustavsson, Bozak

and/or

Connolly, Lombardi, Steckel, Franson

You tell me?

That was a lot of money wasted.
Steckel makes 1.1 mil... Bozak makes 1.5 and he's our top center. Beachemin netted us Jake Gardiner and Joffrey Lupul, so clearly he isn't that bad. Gustavsson made very little money and we basically got what we paid for. Exelby was a salary dump we picked up in the Kubina trade, Orr isn't on our books.

Franson is a good hockey player and we took a chance on Lombardi just so we could pick up Franson for Lebda.

Komisarek and Connolly were the only bad signings out of the ones you posted and I would say that both were justified. Komisarek was coming off of an excellent season with Montreal and some thought he would get 5-6 million. He's not worth 4.5 now, but his contract is up this year. Connolly was a gamble, and when he is healthy he is exactly what we thought he would be, but we took a gamble to see if he could be the point per game player he was projected to be.

It's very easy to just cherry pick bad contracts with no contracts, but the bottom line is that there isn't a General Manager available that is better than Burke right now. If Ken Holland gets fired, we should fire Burke immediately, but I really don't see that happening.

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12-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #78
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Orr isn't on our books.
Assuming the 2012-2013 season happens Colton Orr is still under contract, although it's also the last year of his deal. Plus we won't know if he can be placed on waivers again and assigned to the Marlies.

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12-30-2012, 09:00 PM
  #79
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Burke's biggest problem is that he was 'all in' since he got here.

Only at the trade deadline of the 2010-2011 season did he decide to take a step back.

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12-30-2012, 09:03 PM
  #80
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Burke's biggest problem is that he was 'all in' since he got here.

Only at the trade deadline of the 2010-2011 season did he decide to take a step back.
This is accurate.

Spending to the cap continually, trading the roster over, and sending out your own first round picks twice is very aggressive in pursuit of competitiveness.

It hasn't worked at all, despite all the moves, and all the headlines, and the Leafs are in a worse position than when he first joined the club.

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12-30-2012, 09:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Assuming the 2012-2013 season happens Colton Orr is still under contract, although it's also the last year of his deal. Plus we won't know if he can be placed on waivers again and assigned to the Marlies.
He's not under the cap is my point. Our organization can afford to pay him cash dollars.

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12-30-2012, 09:10 PM
  #82
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He's not under the cap is my point. Our organization can afford to pay him cash dollars.
Since he's not on the Marlies roster then doesn't that mean he is under the cap?

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12-30-2012, 09:28 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Since he's not on the Marlies roster then doesn't that mean he is under the cap?

oh, well we don't really have a cap right now since there is no season, so I am not really sure I guess. I'm not sure what would happen if we started up games. I guess you might be right about that. My bad.

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12-30-2012, 09:29 PM
  #84
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trading:

syndegaard d'arnaud alvarez marsinek nicolino hecheveria escobar and buck and mathis

would be like trading:

reilly kadri frattin colborne ashton mckegg bozak and komisarek and holzer

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12-30-2012, 10:23 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
trading:

syndegaard d'arnaud alvarez marsinek nicolino hecheveria escobar and buck and mathis

would be like trading:

reilly kadri frattin colborne ashton mckegg bozak and komisarek and holzer
I'd have no problem depending on who was coming back.

There isn't a key player on that group, there are potentially key players, but right now they're just hope.

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12-30-2012, 11:56 PM
  #86
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Its true that the MLB and NHL are very different (salary cap, pick trading, contract lengths, years of control, etc.) and that makes it harder to make drastic moves (which all the more underscores the importance of a proper build in the NHL) but that shouldn't overshadow the large gap that separates AA from BB.

AA built up the farm in such a manner that the league actually changed the rules (and most likely because of him and things like the Olivo trade). He's widely considered a top exec in the league for the moves he's made; would anyone honestly say that BB is a top exec in the league based on his performance?

A lot of it has to do with talent evaluation.
AA has been as good as can be expected (no one is perfect: trading Napoli, having Cordero, etc.) and choose the right moment in time to make the surge to the top to propel the Jays to World series favourite. He also thought he could get by on his prospects but saw how they underperformed and saw it best to trade for current talent.
BB overestimated his team's ability and made decisions accordingly, never really allowing for a proper rebuild.
BB is definitely no Colangelo but he's not on AA's level either.

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12-31-2012, 09:10 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
trading:

syndegaard d'arnaud alvarez marsinek nicolino hecheveria escobar and buck and mathis

would be like trading:

reilly kadri frattin colborne ashton mckegg bozak and komisarek and holzer
Escobar is much better than Komisarek, and his contract is much nicer (5M in the MLB is a very good contract for a useful player). I'd more compare him to MacArthur: coming off a sub-par season, but has the skills and some good numbers from years past.

I'd also tend to see Syndergaard as the equivalent of Jesse Blacker, not Reilly. He was not our top pitching prospect (Aaron Sanchez is almost unanimously viewed as a better prospect, and even Roberto Osuna might be higher on some lists), but he's definitely a really good prospect.


Last edited by Leafsdude7: 12-31-2012 at 09:15 AM.
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12-31-2012, 12:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Escobar is much better than Komisarek, and his contract is much nicer (5M in the MLB is a very good contract for a useful player). I'd more compare him to MacArthur: coming off a sub-par season, but has the skills and some good numbers from years past.

I'd also tend to see Syndergaard as the equivalent of Jesse Blacker, not Reilly. He was not our top pitching prospect (Aaron Sanchez is almost unanimously viewed as a better prospect, and even Roberto Osuna might be higher on some lists), but he's definitely a really good prospect.
D'Arnaud would be Yakupov then just based on his position. The point is, the Leafs don't have the prospects or the farm team to make a big splash like this.

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12-31-2012, 12:22 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
D'Arnaud would be Yakupov then just based on his position.
Eh?

Obviously my comparison comments were based on our own prospect depth chart, not on some absolute similarity between the players vs the prospect rankings in the entire league.

D'arnaud would be equivalent Kadri because Kadri is our top prospect who is pro-ready.

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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
The point is, the Leafs don't have the prospects or the farm team to make a big splash like this.
Agreed, and not wholly because they wouldn't want to trade their prospects. One also has to take into account the fact that most other teams wouldn't trade the type of players the Jays got for any of the prospects the Leafs have outside of Reilly, Kadri and maybe Colborne and Frattin.


Last edited by Leafsdude7: 12-31-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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12-31-2012, 12:56 PM
  #90
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It only took the Jays 20 years to complete their rebuild. Why can't the Leafs be more like them

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12-31-2012, 01:14 PM
  #91
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It only took the Jays 20 years to complete their rebuild. Why can't the Leafs be more like them
The Leafs have been rebuilding for close to 50 years and it's still not completed .

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12-31-2012, 01:18 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Agreed, and not wholly because they wouldn't want to trade their prospects. One also has to take into account the fact that most other teams wouldn't trade the type of players the Jays got for any of the prospects the Leafs have outside of Reilly, Kadri and maybe Colborne and Kadri.
Kadri doesn't have a twin and Colborne's value has dropped through the floor .

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12-31-2012, 01:24 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Eh?

Obviously my comparison comments were based on our own prospect depth chart, not on some absolute similarity between the players vs the prospect rankings in the entire league.

D'arnaud would be equivalent Kadri because Kadri is our top prospect who is pro-ready.



Agreed, and not wholly because they wouldn't want to trade their prospects. One also has to take into account the fact that most other teams wouldn't trade the type of players the Jays got for any of the prospects the Leafs have outside of Reilly, Kadri and maybe Colborne and Kadri.
Not only that be depending on the outcome of the Jays trade, that could be one of the biggest fleecing in sports history. Doesn't happen often.. Especially in the NHL.

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12-31-2012, 01:27 PM
  #94
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The Leafs have been rebuilding for close to 50 years and it's still not completed .
I'm a Jays fan too. Just amused at the difference in attitudes towards both teams.

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12-31-2012, 01:33 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
This is accurate.

Spending to the cap continually, trading the roster over, and sending out your own first round picks twice is very aggressive in pursuit of competitiveness.

It hasn't worked at all, despite all the moves, and all the headlines, and the Leafs are in a worse position than when he first joined the club.
maybe they're better than when he got here, but not better by enough considering it's been more than 4 years.

we still don't have a #1 goalie or a #1 c man.

the first year and a half will ultimately cost burke his job here.

in 09 he set the tone, picking up a goalie to win a few more meaningless games so we can get kadri instead of duchene or schenn. then we all know about the kessel trade, although i love kessel.
he horribly miss-read where the team was, and it wasn't even close.

even if he makes 'aa-type moves' and picks up a star goalie or w/e i still see us as a fringe playoff team at best. the foundation is simply not here.

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12-31-2012, 06:35 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Kadri doesn't have a twin and Colborne's value has dropped through the floor .
Haha. The second Kadri was supposed to be Frattin.

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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Not only that be depending on the outcome of the Jays trade, that could be one of the biggest fleecing in sports history. Doesn't happen often.. Especially in the NHL.
Agreed on all points.

The only time I can think of where there was anything similar to as big a fleecing as the Jays trade appears to be at the moment in the NHL was the Lindros trade. I'm sure there's others, but nothing really comes to mind as, at the time, bad trades.

The Jays gave up what were generally viewed as their 3rd and 5th best prospects and two highly regarded, but generally viewed as middle-of-the-road talent youngsters that had a decent amount of pro experience, but got 4 high-level veteran players in return, 2 of which (Johnson and Bonifacio) probably have at least another 8-10 years left in them.

It's the type of trade that looks good for both sides on the surface, but when you really dig down deep, it looks one-sided.

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12-31-2012, 09:10 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Escobar is much better than Komisarek, and his contract is much nicer (5M in the MLB is a very good contract for a useful player). I'd more compare him to MacArthur: coming off a sub-par season, but has the skills and some good numbers from years past.

I'd also tend to see Syndergaard as the equivalent of Jesse Blacker, not Reilly. He was not our top pitching prospect (Aaron Sanchez is almost unanimously viewed as a better prospect, and even Roberto Osuna might be higher on some lists), but he's definitely a really good prospect.
Syndergaard is WAY better as a prospect in comparison to Blacker. Noah has ace front of the rotation upside and was awesome last season while Blacker projects more into a 2nd pairing - 3rd pairing guy who really hasnt done much since being drafted.

Also theres really no scouting place that ranks Osuna ahead of Syndergaard.

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12-31-2012, 10:09 PM
  #98
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The massive difference as been said is that the Jays had a stacked farm system that had high level prospects but also a crazy amount of depth. After all the talent we traded away we still have a middle of the pack farm with loads of high upside prospects when you look in the lower minors (DJ Davis, Osuna, Franklin Baretto, Alberto Tirado, Matt Smoral, Daniel Norris and a top 10 pick on the way). If the Leafs made a trade for this much talent they would be left with absolutely nothing of note. As crazy as it sounds the Jays still have the ability to pull off another prospects for stud player deal as they could do something like Gose + Sanchez + Norris and that could prolly land you a really good player but it would be stupid considering we already have a stacked team and we should keep some of our young stud prospects.

Also Rielly and d'Arnaud are basically equivalent so say goodbye to him if you make these kind of moves.

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01-01-2013, 12:12 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Leafsdude7 View Post
Agreed on all points.

The only time I can think of where there was anything similar to as big a fleecing as the Jays trade appears to be at the moment in the NHL was the Lindros trade. I'm sure there's others, but nothing really comes to mind as, at the time, bad trades.

The Jays gave up what were generally viewed as their 3rd and 5th best prospects and two highly regarded, but generally viewed as middle-of-the-road talent youngsters that had a decent amount of pro experience, but got 4 high-level veteran players in return, 2 of which (Johnson and Bonifacio) probably have at least another 8-10 years left in them.

It's the type of trade that looks good for both sides on the surface, but when you really dig down deep, it looks one-sided.
The Scott Gomez trade is looking pretty bad for Montreal right now. McDonagh is an absolute stud and Gomez is an absolute dud who will probably get bought out by next year for free.

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01-01-2013, 01:34 AM
  #100
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Hes made some similar moves

Dickey trade is comparable to the Kessel trade, other then Kessel is younger. Two impact prospects for a known commodity.

Marlins trade is similar to the Phanuef deal (something for nothing)

Cabrera signing is the key. It could turn out good for the Jays, it could turn out to be a hybrid of the Connolly and Komisarek signings.

The thing AA has going for him is that his new team hasnt yet played a game. His moves cant be evaluated fully until the team has played a year, and we have a better indication of the calibre of player they traded prospects will become. Will d'Arnaud, Sydengaard, or Nicholino (sorry if misspelled one of those names) turn into a "Seguin"? We dont know.
That is so wrong.

Burke did not trade prospects. He traded picks 8months before the picks were even made.

That is Nothing like trading the best prospect in the world at a certain position.

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