HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Goodbye to the bye

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-28-2012, 12:48 AM
  #26
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
This is a tournament, not a league championship. Single game elimination is always the format. The round robin is still meaningful for seeding. Generally the fourth seed is fairly weak. The chances for that to be an upset are pretty minuscule. I like seeing each team play seven games again. I haven't liked the bye. It skews the scoring race. The extra rest day before playing a tired QF team is a huge advantage. That disadvantage increases if the lower seed advances to the final as it becomes the third game in four nights. I like the level playing field.

The only downside for me is when one of the relegation teams wins the first two games in that best of three. I could see the tournament scoring leader emerge from that 3 game series as well if a newly graduated team loses all their 19 year old players from the previous year and gets smashed 3 games straight.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 01:43 AM
  #27
timekeep
Registered User
 
timekeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,316
vCash: 500
Should eight teams in a ten team tournament after the preliminary round, still have a shot at a medal? I think it is too many. 1 vs 4 games cause injuries. Don't like this move.

timekeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 03:24 PM
  #28
SpeedDemon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Classified
Country: United States
Posts: 778
vCash: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
I always thought byes were retarded.
that makes two of us


Quote:
Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
Should eight teams in a ten team tournament after the preliminary round, still have a shot at a medal? I think it is too many. 1 vs 4 games cause injuries. Don't like this move.
it's rather simple to avoid injuries. don't throw as many body checks. The game is centered around skating and speed primarily. The physical play is secondary. a necessary evil of sorts. it's not supposed be as peaceful as chess but don't turn it into bumper cars or MMA.

use better judgement don't be as reckless. problem solved

SpeedDemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #29
Shrimper
Trick or ruddy treat
 
Shrimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 68,705
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
I like the format for next year in terms of relegation, last placed teams in the two pools face one another in a best of three series.
Same, I'm looking forward to that as well.

Shrimper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 03:49 PM
  #30
leafsfuture
Registered User
 
leafsfuture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,541
vCash: 500
In this tournament, I like the bye.

The 09 and 10 New Years Eve games between Canada and the US were two of the best games I have ever watched, and those games were all about the bye

leafsfuture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 04:20 PM
  #31
timekeep
Registered User
 
timekeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PredsFan1IslesFan View Post
that makes two of us




it's rather simple to avoid injuries. don't throw as many body checks. The game is centered around skating and speed primarily. The physical play is secondary. a necessary evil of sorts. it's not supposed be as peaceful as chess but don't turn it into bumper cars or MMA.

use better judgement don't be as reckless. problem solved
Still not sure why eight of ten teams need to make the playoffs, worst than the CFL

timekeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 04:21 PM
  #32
Systemfail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 45
vCash: 500
Here's what the IIHF should do:

Round Robin: 2 groups with 5 teams (Group A and Group B) - exactly as now

Each team has 4 round robin games, the top 2 in each group advances to the playoffs:
A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2

- winners of those games go to the Final (best of 3)
- losers will meet for Bronze (1 game)

Teams placed 3rd in their round robin groups will be tied for 5th place in the tournament, they will both head for home - no need to play a game for 5th place...

The bottom 2 in each Group play relegation playoffs:
A4 vs B5, A5 vs B4

- winners will be tied for 7th
- losers will meet for not being relegated (9th-10th place game) (best of 3)

Hopefully, and probably, there will/can not be any meaningless games that way...


Last edited by Systemfail: 12-28-2012 at 04:34 PM.
Systemfail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 04:22 PM
  #33
timekeep
Registered User
 
timekeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,316
vCash: 500
Can also eliminate the bye completely and only have the top two teams from each division make it. Have a cross over 1 vs 2. That would make the preliminary games most important unless they go back to the complete round robin which is not as good.

timekeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #34
ThrashersfanSVK
@Jakub_Homola
 
ThrashersfanSVK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 419
vCash: 500
Systemfail: And two teams would play only in round robin. Actual format is great since eight of ten teams play the same number of matches (just two teams which advance from quarterfinals play one more game).

Right now there is one reason why to focus on game in round robin - to gain a bye which provides you more time to rest and better preparation for semis. Yeah, many could complain that it is anything but advantage. In 1999, when Slovaks recieved a bye, they later complained about "this advantage" since they weren't in tempo and it was tough for them to play such an important game after 3-day rest (they lost to Russia in semis, btw). Ten years later in Canada, the main reason why Slovaks were beaten in semis by Swedes was really bad 3rd period caused by the fatigue from the quarterfinal game on the previous day. Everything has his own pros and cons, but still I think bye IS an advantage.

With the new format, there is a risk that bronze medailist could be a team whose W% is under .500. Imagine situation that team advances to the quarterfinals with 1-3 record, in quarterfinals they suprisingly beat favorite (like Switzerland in 2010...), in semifinals the opponent kicks their ***** and in the bronze medal game they just win over team with zero motivation (the typical Russian attitude towards bronze medal game). 3-4 and they have bronze medal game. Seriously?

I really don't get why IIHF has returned to this format which was between 2000 and 2002. I thought that 3-years-experiment was not succesful as they in 2003 returned back to the format from 1999.

Maybe it's just like in Platon's The Republic. He explained cycle of types of govermants, now we can see how IIHF changes two formats for WJC almost every halfdecade.

Personally, the best format was with bye and two teams relegated. Yeah, I know, it provides Slovaks better chance to be relegated, but honestly I don't care. I love that stress . Almost every single game is meaningful. You are either in the battle for medal or in the battle for avoiding the relegation.

ThrashersfanSVK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 06:59 PM
  #35
Bobby G
Registered User
 
Bobby G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada4Gold View Post
don't like it, makes the preliminary round pretty much meaningless for the top teams
Seriously. The format is perfect as it is. Preliminary games are meaningful for top countries to try and get the bye and for middle countries to try and advanced.

Canada's next two games against USA and Russia are huge. But in the new format they'll be pretty meaningless.

Bobby G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-28-2012, 07:00 PM
  #36
Jussi
I am siege face
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Finland
Posts: 43,233
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
Should eight teams in a ten team tournament after the preliminary round, still have a shot at a medal? I think it is too many. 1 vs 4 games cause injuries. Don't like this move.
Source?

Jussi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 07:51 PM
  #37
Ryker
Registered User
 
Ryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 2,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
The only downside for me is when one of the relegation teams wins the first two games in that best of three. I could see the tournament scoring leader emerge from that 3 game series as well if a newly graduated team loses all their 19 year old players from the previous year and gets smashed 3 games straight.
That's true, but it's an individual accolade, so I don't think it should matter when considering the format itself. Plus, if there's one team that's significantly worse than others, then even under the current format, you have a great chance of the point scoring leader coming from a team that was in that group. Last year the scoring leader was Kuznetsov, and the majority of his points came from a single game against Latvia (nine out of thirteen).

Ryker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 09:39 PM
  #38
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,789
vCash: 500
I think they actually finally got the format right, or as right as it can be. Pool winners get a bye. Second and third in each pool go to the quarter finals. Fourth and fifth go to the relegation round. One team gets relegated.

I believe that the last time in which the top team didn't receive a bye was in 2002. And in that year, Switzerland beat Slovakia in the quarter-final. (Although that was far from a sensational Slovakian entry).

As it stands right now, winning your pool means something. You get the extra day off, and you're guaranteed to play for a medal. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it does give you an advantage. The system works.

The odds of having a four beating a one are slim. It happened in 2002, but it would typically require one of two things happening:

1) The No. 4's goalie would need an incredible game;
2) You'd need to have a strong No. 4 against an underwhelming No. 1. (And remember, the Swiss won as many games (two) in their pool, as the Slovaks did in their pool, in 2002).

It takes away that extra day of rest, or an extra day of practice, for the pool winners. And it's one more game with an injury risk.

Keep the current format. The only change I would consider would be a best-of-three at a neutral site between the 10th place team from the main tournament, and the winner of the next division, to determine which team plays as the 10th seed at the WJC. The series would be played six to eight weeks before the tournament. As it stands right now, a team qualifies for the tournament a year in advance, and risks losing most of their top players before the next year's WJC. (A situation that occurred with France's 2002 entry). This might be financially and logistically impossible, but if it could happen, it should happen.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 09:51 PM
  #39
Leafsdude7
Stand-Up Philosopher
 
Leafsdude7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,350
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Leafsdude7 Send a message via MSN to Leafsdude7 Send a message via Yahoo to Leafsdude7
Makes sense with the single relegation. Seems rather over-the-top to have 4 teams playing to stay out of that one spot.

Still, I like the top-3 through format. It means someone goes home after the round robin who at least had a shot at an upset, if they weren't a potential favourite. I understand the dislike of the bye, though.

If I were in charge, I'd do a double round-robin, sort of like the Men's World Championships: the 4-game first round, play a 2-game 2nd round with 1 and 3 in one pool being joined by 2 from the other pool and each playing 2 once (the 1-3 game from the 1st round carries over) and then 1 crossing over to play 2 for the semis. That way, no one stays idle. It also results in an extra game or two vs the current system for each team. More $$$ for the organizers and the IIHF.

I still like the 5th place teams playing a 3-game series for the relegation, though, so I'd just tell the 4th place teams to go home after the first round robin and use their previous year's finish to rank them for the next tournament. No more games for them.

Leafsdude7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 09:35 AM
  #40
dmacgreg37
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,105
vCash: 500
I think I like the new (old, back again) system. However, situations like this year, with a really even group (CZE/SUI/FIN), there's no advantage to winning the other group. The winner of CAN/RUS would be facing FIN, with the loser taking on SUI. I think the SUI matchup is actually easier, and thus, this game going on now (CAN/RUS) would be MUCH less meaningful.

dmacgreg37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 10:30 AM
  #41
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,804
vCash: 500
Love it.

And that best of 3 series for relegation will be incredible, emotion filled hockey.

One Man Rock Band is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 12:07 PM
  #42
Bobby G
Registered User
 
Bobby G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,588
vCash: 500
So next year Canada would play Finland in a one game knockout, congrats on going undefeated.. What a terrible format

Bobby G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 12:15 PM
  #43
fly4apuckguy
Mr. Old School
 
fly4apuckguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,117
vCash: 500
I hate the bye. I think a team like Canada needs to keep rolling right now. Instead, they get a three day holiday to get complacent.

fly4apuckguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 12:16 PM
  #44
fly4apuckguy
Mr. Old School
 
fly4apuckguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,117
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
So next year Canada would play Finland in a one game knockout, congrats on going undefeated.. What a terrible format
In a "normal" year, that team would likely be Slovakia or maybe the Swiss.

If we lose to one of those teams in a win-or-go-home scenario, we don't deserve a medal.

I like it.

fly4apuckguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 12:18 PM
  #45
MastuhNinks
Registered User
 
MastuhNinks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Iron Throne
Posts: 4,364
vCash: 500
I like the bye because it encourages teams to want to win every game, whereas without it some teams might not care so much about a loss if it gives them a more favorable matchup. A bye is inarguably the best 'matchup' in a quarterfinal. Whereas, let's just say for example in today's Canada/Russia game, if the winner faced Switzerland and the loser faced the Czech Republic (I guess this would be the case if the USA beat Russia and Canada), it might be seen as more favourable to lose the game.

Er, wait I screwed that up. If the loser faced Switzerland and the winner played the Czech Republic... I don't think that would've been a possible outcome, but whatever, you get my point.

MastuhNinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 12:25 PM
  #46
Bobby G
Registered User
 
Bobby G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
In a "normal" year, that team would likely be Slovakia or maybe the Swiss.

If we lose to one of those teams in a win-or-go-home scenario, we don't deserve a medal.

I like it.
Well last year 1st got you a date with 4th place USA.

It just completely makes the round robin pointless for most countries

Bobby G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 02:02 PM
  #47
tony d
Thanks for memories
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,690
vCash: 500
Glad to see them removing the bye. The new playoff format for next year should prove interesting.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 03:01 PM
  #48
Anksun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,562
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Anksun
So instead of giving an advantage to the best 2 teams, you makes them play 1 more game. + when a strong candidate actually have a bad showing and finish 4th (Finland this year, USA last year anyone?) You might actually ends up with a potential game where no one wants to win their game and their pool.

Useless addition of a game.

Anksun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 03:15 PM
  #49
Canada4Gold
Registered User
 
Canada4Gold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Systemfail View Post
Round Robin: 2 groups with 5 teams (Group A and Group B) - exactly as now

Each team has 4 round robin games, the top 2 in each group advances to the playoffs:
A1 vs B2, B1 vs A2

- winners of those games go to the Final (best of 3)
- losers will meet for Bronze (1 game)

Teams placed 3rd in their round robin groups will be tied for 5th place in the tournament, they will both head for home - no need to play a game for 5th place...

The bottom 2 in each Group play relegation playoffs:
A4 vs B5, A5 vs B4

- winners will be tied for 7th
- losers will meet for not being relegated (9th-10th place game) (best of 3)

Hopefully, and probably, there will/can not be any meaningless games that way...
there is a need to play for 5th and 7th place, the final placings for the tournament determine the groupd for the following year

Canada4Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 05:28 PM
  #50
wwvdw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sweden
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 340
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimyrmidon View Post
My argument was that a tournament with a bye takes into account teams that have demonstrated, over the course of the preliminary round, that they are probably better teams and so are deserving of a place in the semis (i.e. if something goes wrong, it's not in the QFs where you can't play for a medal if you lose).

whereas

a tournament without a bye means that the preliminary round doesn't actually mean much since you can be the best, but still not make it to the semis because of a bad QF game against a team that did much worse during the prelim round, which doesn't make sense; conversely, a team could be pretty horrible and lose most of its games, but still pull off a win when the result actually 'counts'. Doesn't mean that this team is more 'deserving'/better at all.

Hence, the winner of a tournament with a bye is more likely a team that 'should have' won if the point of the tournament is that the best team wins.
How is a team that couldn't beat a 4th seed the team that "should have" won? If you lose a quarter-final against those lower seeds you are definitely not the team that "should have" won.

Its a good change in my opinion, why would you give the advantage of so many resting days to the highest seeds? It just makes no sense.

In the new format they do take into account that the first seeds did a good job. They get to play against the worst team making the quarters from the other group, that is the extend of the advantage you deserve.

Do you think the first seeds from each conference in the NHL should get a pass for the first round?

wwvdw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.