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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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12-31-2012, 08:08 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
It's great insurance to have one of Luongo/Schneider on the bench in case the other gets injured, but having someone who will be playing every single game can be more valuable.

And I want to point out that if Bozak is the main NHL piece coming back, then we'd also probably be getting Kadri+, which we could then trade to another team to get an asset to help us now.
I'd like to point out that Kadri probably holds more value than Bozak....so if Bozak is the "main" piece mentioned....

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12-31-2012, 08:24 AM
  #502
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lol...you think cap hit alone defines Salary dump? Do you think good players are exceptions to a Salary dump?

You tell me one owner that would like to pay a goalie(who is now their back up) for the next 10 years at the money he's owed?

You are the one that seems very confused my friend.



Luongo will not remain here indefinitely, that much is certain. However, _when_ he moves determines if he is a "salary dump". When and why, and for what. Nobody should evaluate his worth based on his current position, backup or otherwise. He is a starter level talent. At one point or another, debated as a franchise goaltender. It just so happens that the Canucks now have two such talents. It doesn't diminish Luongo in the least to say that.




He will move, but he will not be "dumped". The same way Staal wasn't "dumped" despite playing behind two 1Cs.



Quote:
If Luongo was paid 1 million dollars a year, he'd still be a Nuck, his salary is not what an owner would want to be on the hook for the next 10 years(or whenever he retires), considering his role. You have many people, both experts and fans that think there is far too much money tied up in the Canucks goaltending...they are looking to dump a salary.

Look at all the teams that can't even handle taking that type of salary back to have Luongo as a starter, what owner in their right mind would keep that for their back up?



Some of this is incorrect. Luongo is on the move because of his own desire to move. It wouldn't matter if he made 1m or 10m per, he wants out so the Canucks must oblige him... eventually.



Before Schneider received his 4m per contract, there were many saying he should be dealt to fix things upfront or on D, it didn't happen. He remained and the Canucks ran two starters. Why? I think it's because Gillis wants to retain elite talent wherever he finds it. That it would be unlikely he received elite talent in return, so why not run a strength for as long as you can? Take advantage of that elite talent for as long as possible. He certainly didn't care to round out his roster -- not at the expense of that talent. So no, Luongo's talent is still high end, and as such, won't be "dumped". Just like Schneider wasn't "dumped".

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12-31-2012, 08:27 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'd like to point out that Kadri probably holds more value than Bozak....so if Bozak is the "main" piece mentioned....


Kadri hasn't locked down a spot in the NHL after four years of development... I'm not sure you can make that statement with any reasonable certainty.

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12-31-2012, 08:34 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Kadri hasn't locked down a spot in the NHL after four years of development... I'm not sure you can make that statement with any reasonable certainty.
I am probably the biggest detractor of Kadri as a Leaf fan. I have watched him with the London Knights....Toronto Marlies and the Leafs, i can say this, as long as Kadri improves his defensive game (which has looked much better this season) his offensive skills make more valuable IMO than Bozak. Carlyle seemed to like him late last season and Wilson always seemed to have an issue with him.

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12-31-2012, 09:11 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I am probably the biggest detractor of Kadri as a Leaf fan. I have watched him with the London Knights....Toronto Marlies and the Leafs, i can say this, as long as Kadri improves his defensive game (which has looked much better this season) his offensive skills make more valuable IMO than Bozak. Carlyle seemed to like him late last season and Wilson always seemed to have an issue with him.



I don't disagree, but that's still your perspective. It's a fan's take. How does a GM view it? Bozak has centered the TML's 1st line and put up 47 points last year... What is that worth in the face of a struggling rookie who still has big defensive question marks? What's likely worth more to the leafs now and into the future?


Bozak is the far safer bet. As far as value goes, you would have to lend significant weight to the known quantity in Bozak, than the unknown quantity in Kadri. It would be different if NK was seen as a blue chip asset, or a can't miss player... but he isn't/shouldn't be.

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12-31-2012, 10:03 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I don't disagree, but that's still your perspective. It's a fan's take. How does a GM view it? Bozak has centered the TML's 1st line and put up 47 points last year... What is that worth in the face of a struggling rookie who still has big defensive question marks? What's likely worth more to the leafs now and into the future?


Bozak is the far safer bet. As far as value goes, you would have to lend significant weight to the known quantity in Bozak, than the unknown quantity in Kadri. It would be different if NK was seen as a blue chip asset, or a can't miss player... but he isn't/shouldn't be.
Struggling? Ahl stats this year...25 games 25 points. He has been basically PPG his whole AHL carreer. He has 19 points in 51 NHL games playing 3rd line minutes. I agree his defensive game is suspect, but it is improved this season as has his physical play. I think it"s safe to say that given the chance that Bozak has had... Kadri would do better than 47 points. I can say with confidence that Kadri won't be a "throw in" nor will the Leafs offer a gift so you will accept him.

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12-31-2012, 10:16 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Struggling? Ahl stats this year...25 games 25 points. He has been basically PPG his whole AHL carreer. He has 19 points in 51 NHL games playing 3rd line minutes. I agree his defensive game is suspect, but it is improved this season as has his physical play. I think it"s safe to say that given the chance that Bozak has had... Kadri would do better than 47 points. I can say with confidence that Kadri won't be a "throw in" nor will the Leafs offer a gift so you will accept him.


Struggling *defensively, meant to say. He's always put up the numbers.


The original question is about value. Who holds more? In your opinion, Kadri would do better, but then does Burke share your opinion? Did Wilson? Look at it from Gillis's perspective, and Bozak still seems a far more safer, more useful asset. You don't have to call Kadri a throw in, you can say he has lesser value to Bozak... which given the history and circumstances surrounding him, isn't unreasonable at all.

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12-31-2012, 11:22 AM
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I'd like to point out that Kadri probably holds more value than Bozak....so if Bozak is the "main" piece mentioned....
I said "main NHL piece" as in the best NHL player we're getting in return in the deal. Kadri isn't an NHL player (yet).

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12-31-2012, 11:23 AM
  #509
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am i wrong to think nothing on the leafs is really that enticing ? columbus has guys im more interested in

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12-31-2012, 11:25 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by nuckfan insk View Post
am i wrong to think nothing on the leafs is really that enticing ? columbus has guys im more interested in
Yeah, but Luongo would never waive his NTC to play in Columbus.
And I'm not even sure that Columbus would want Luongo, they wont be a playoff team until Luongo is 38 years old.

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12-31-2012, 12:02 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Struggling *defensively, meant to say. He's always put up the numbers.


The original question is about value. Who holds more? In your opinion, Kadri would do better, but then does Burke share your opinion? Did Wilson? Look at it from Gillis's perspective, and Bozak still seems a far more safer, more useful asset. You don't have to call Kadri a throw in, you can say he has lesser value to Bozak... which given the history and circumstances surrounding him, isn't unreasonable at all.
Hey...i am more than happy sending Bozak over Kadri....just not both. Kadri may be our replacement for Bozak.

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12-31-2012, 12:13 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey...i am more than happy sending Bozak over Kadri....just not both. Kadri may be our replacement for Bozak.


Didn't you post that Bozak + Kadri for Luongo would be a deal you would do? I thought I read that on the main boards.



In any event, as a Canucks fan I'd want both (view Bozak as replacement level still) and then some. So clearly we disagree.

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12-31-2012, 12:16 PM
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Hey...i am more than happy sending Bozak over Kadri....just not both. Kadri may be our replacement for Bozak.
We're going to be trading Luongo to fill one of our two biggest needs, a 3rd line center and a top 6 forward (not a tweener).

Bozak fills our need for a 3rd line center, but it isn't nearly enough to acquire Luongo, as he's an upcoming UFA and isn't an elite 3rd line center.
If we're just getting Kadri + something else that isn't a top 6 forward or good 3rd line center, then there is no point in making a trade with Toronto.


For me, I'd either want Lupul+ (the plus not being Kadri) or Bozak + Kadri + Franson + a good prospect/2nd round draft pick.

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12-31-2012, 12:30 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
What I am confused about his how you can't see why Luongo's salary(not cap) and term is a huge reason he's not on the list of many teams.


No one in their right mind expects Luongo to be a Canuck start the season, the man himself didn't think either(lol).
6.7M isn't a big deal. Budget team spend more on lesser pieces.

Luongo is ok with reporting back to Vancouver, don't know where any of your information is coming from.

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12-31-2012, 12:32 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
Luongo/Schneider is doable under a 60M cap with that roster, but at what point do you actually want to roll with that roster? What makes you think Jensen/Kassian can just step right in and produce? What makes you think AV all of a sudden let's young guys step into large roles? Too many questions with that roster. Likely easier to deal one of Luongo/Schneider.
In 2 seasons if the cap is 60M young players on ELC will have to step in. Only Jensen (fresh off SEL play) and KConn will be rookies. Kassian will be in his 3rd season, Schroeder in his 2nd.

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12-31-2012, 12:37 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
For me, I'd either want Lupul+ (the plus not being Kadri) or Bozak + Kadri + Franson + a good prospect/2nd round draft pick.
I've warmed up and would be happy with either of those - I really think that the second option would be best with our current lineup but if we got rid of Booth then Lupul and Kesler and Kassian would be a killer 2nd line.

I like Franson coming in in either package and don't think that's much of a stretch (Lupul, Franson +)

I'd still like to get someone like Percy or Blacker too but that may be too much for one of the worst goalies in the league

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12-31-2012, 12:40 PM
  #517
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that being said, I still like Booth as a player on our team

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12-31-2012, 01:04 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
Yeah, but Luongo would never waive his NTC to play in Columbus.
And I'm not even sure that Columbus would want Luongo, they wont be a playoff team until Luongo is 38 years old.
Columbus is a deeper team than Toronto.

Why would Luongo waive for Toronto and not Columbus? Not much separates them on the ice other than the microphones in your face every day.

Columbus traded their Kessel, for depth. In my eyes, they are deeper than the Leafs, and I like their general team make up more too.

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12-31-2012, 01:09 PM
  #519
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Kuzma bugs me....As if Bozak would be the centerpiece.

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12-31-2012, 01:17 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Struggling? Ahl stats this year...25 games 25 points. He has been basically PPG his whole AHL carreer. He has 19 points in 51 NHL games playing 3rd line minutes. I agree his defensive game is suspect, but it is improved this season as has his physical play. I think it"s safe to say that given the chance that Bozak has had... Kadri would do better than 47 points. I can say with confidence that Kadri won't be a "throw in" nor will the Leafs offer a gift so you will accept him.
Kadri makes his hay on the Power Play in the AHL.

11 PP points.


Thus only 14 even strength points in 25 games. Not exactly a strong indicator that he can win his matchups at the next level.

I've warmed to him being a piece, but you've flopped and flipped on the value you'd give so many times, I've avoided these threads for almost a month now.

The time is up for Kadri, next year he loses his waiver eligibility, thus he could be a throw away if he comes to camp like he has every year (much like Grabner here).

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12-31-2012, 03:03 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Didn't you post that Bozak + Kadri for Luongo would be a deal you would do? I thought I read that on the main boards.



In any event, as a Canucks fan I'd want both (view Bozak as replacement level still) and then some. So clearly we disagree.
Yes, i did post that, and if it were to be a full season i still would. But if this is to be a shortened season then i'd just run with what we have and make our changes in the offseason. I've said many times that i don't want to pay large in a dash for cash season.

I also fully agree with you, until we know what the CBA is, trying to determine value is moot.

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12-31-2012, 03:18 PM
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
We're going to be trading Luongo to fill one of our two biggest needs, a 3rd line center and a top 6 forward (not a tweener).

Bozak fills our need for a 3rd line center, but it isn't nearly enough to acquire Luongo, as he's an upcoming UFA and isn't an elite 3rd line center.
If we're just getting Kadri + something else that isn't a top 6 forward or good 3rd line center, then there is no point in making a trade with Toronto.


For me, I'd either want Lupul+ (the plus not being Kadri) or Bozak + Kadri + Franson + a good prospect/2nd round draft pick.
I would be absolutely disgusted if all we got back was Bozak, Kadri, Franson and a 2nd round pick. Absolutely disgusted.

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12-31-2012, 04:06 PM
  #523
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Yeah, but Luongo would never waive his NTC to play in Columbus.
And I'm not even sure that Columbus would want Luongo, they wont be a playoff team until Luongo is 38 years old.
Don't underestimate the value of a good goalie behind a deep defense.

Every team in the league is a good goalie away from competing.

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12-31-2012, 04:17 PM
  #524
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I would be absolutely disgusted if all we got back was Bozak, Kadri, Franson and a 2nd round pick. Absolutely disgusted.
What if the return is Gardiner and Kadri?

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12-31-2012, 07:22 PM
  #525
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What if the return is Gardiner and Kadri?
I could, ugh, live with that, I suppose. Compromise

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