HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Notices

Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VI

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-31-2012, 09:26 AM
  #1001
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Kassian has picked up a decent number of assists on the PP, but Schroeder being on the 2nd unit only has 2 or 3 PP points all year. He's done most his damage at ES.

I actually posted earlier this month comparing Schroeder's production at ES to other top players and he was pretty much tied with all the AHL top scorers (and other top prospects). It's just his PP production that has not been where it should be.
This is often a good indication of a player that will thrive offensively with better players around him. So let me ask you, is this the case? We know that if transfered to the Canucks specifically, Schroeder wouldn't get significant PP time. I have no doubt that he'll get time centering the 2nd unit just as Hodgson did, but the 2nd unit is only on the ice long enough for the Sedins to rest for the most part.

So, I guess my question is, is Schroeder's lack of success on the PP related more to his poor play in such a scenario, or a lack of finish/offensive contribution of his team mates?

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 09:28 AM
  #1002
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Kassian has picked up a decent number of assists on the PP, but Schroeder being on the 2nd unit only has 2 or 3 PP points all year. He's done most his damage at ES.

I actually posted earlier this month comparing Schroeder's production at ES to other top players and he was pretty much tied with all the AHL top scorers (and other top prospects). It's just his PP production that has not been where it should be.



Do you have that list handy?



Kassian is inconsistent. I think some are just looking for him to make a strong impact when he gets a chance because he disappears more often than he should. So when he gets a chance to impact the game and doesn't do it, people are frustrated. Once he finds that efficiency in his game though, it won't matter how many big hits he throws. He will be trusted to influence the game more effectively. Regardless of the showmanship. That's when people will back off their high expectations I think.


Kid's got hands though, that's for sure.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 09:58 AM
  #1003
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Do you have that list handy?



Kassian is inconsistent. I think some are just looking for him to make a strong impact when he gets a chance because he disappears more often than he should. So when he gets a chance to impact the game and doesn't do it, people are frustrated. Once he finds that efficiency in his game though, it won't matter how many big hits he throws. He will be trusted to influence the game more effectively. Regardless of the showmanship. That's when people will back off their high expectations I think.


Kid's got hands though, that's for sure.
Agreed. When a player like Kassian is scoring, there often isn't much complaint. But when he isn't, the criticism starts to run rampant. What people don't want to see in Kassian is the play of a one dimensional scorer, as in when he isn't scoring he's essentially useless. This is the balance that most powerforwards have a hard time finding early in their career, so I'm not overly concerned.

Kassian needs to find ways to remain effective when he isn't putting the puck in the net. For him, it should be simple. Create energy with a big hit, cause some havoc in front of the net, fight a non-goon player from the other team etc. In some people's opinions, he isn't doing enough of this.

Many prolific powerforwards took years to find this balance, and they carved out excellent NHL careers in doing so. Here are a few examples...

Shane Doan: Over the first 249 games of his career (4 seasons), he only amounted a total of 62 points (average of 20 points per season). At age 24, he put together his first 50 point season. And in his entire NHL career, he only had 2 seasons with over 100 PIM. In fact, most seasons he was around 50 PIM.

Ryan Clowe: He had an equally slow start to his career, and showed the first signs of life as a 24 year old who managed to score 34 points through 58 games (48 point pace). After losing much of the next season to injury, he put together his first 50 point season at age 26. Even still, he only finished with 51 PIM that season. At age 27 he managed to put it together scoring 57 points through 82 games with 131 PIM.

David Backes: At age 21, the same age as Kassian is now, Backes managed to put up above PPG college numbers and 10 points through 12 games in the AHL. He followed that up with only 13 points through his next 31 games in the AHL before getting called up and scoring 23 points through 49 points in the NHL (a year older than Kassian is now). But it wasn't until age 24 that Backes managed his first 50 point season in the NHL. And he didn't truely become dominant until age 26 when he posted his first + season, scored 31 goals, and 62 points.


My point is, Kassian has a TON of time to put it together. He looks good in the AHL right now, for the most part. If he can step into the NHL this season and score around 12 points through a 48 game season he'll be looking very promising. I think we need to dial down expectations, it isn't very common a 21 year old powerforward doesn't have significant holes in his game. Kassian isn't the next Lindros, after all.

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 10:10 AM
  #1004
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
Agreed. When a player like Kassian is scoring, there often isn't much complaint. But when he isn't, the criticism starts to run rampant. What people don't want to see in Kassian is the play of a one dimensional scorer, as in when he isn't scoring he's essentially useless. This is the balance that most powerforwards have a hard time finding early in their career, so I'm not overly concerned.

Kassian needs to find ways to remain effective when he isn't putting the puck in the net. For him, it should be simple. Create energy with a big hit, cause some havoc in front of the net, fight a non-goon player from the other team etc. In some people's opinions, he isn't doing enough of this.



Actually, he doesn't need to do even this, save for going to the net that is. All he needs to do is to get pace in his game. Be more direct in what he does. That way, even if he's not getting to the Dman quick enough to hit him, he's forcing that Dman to react quicker than he otherwise would, making him more prone to making a mistake. He needs to backcheck harder and close out his player with intent, making him more trustworthy as a 2way player. He needs to close off the boards better etc...



None of these little things include a big hit, or fighting. It's just about playing a more efficient game when he gets the ice time. Once he starts doing this, he'll be able to "contribute" more and not disappear for stretches at a time. Just get better at the nuances of the game.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 02:22 PM
  #1005
Scurr
Registered User
 
Scurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Whalley
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,381
vCash: 500
Power forward is one of the toughest roles to crack in hockey. Part scorer, part energy player, part goon. Any one of those roles is difficult at the highest level, Kassian is trying to figure out a way to be all three.

Kassian also needs to learn how to use his body efficiently. Guys like Matt Cooke don't have to expend the same energy flying around the ice that a beast like Kassian does, so they don't have to be as economical with how they exert themselves.

IMO Kassian is ahead of the curve because he's got so much natural talent. He'll round out his game more in the next few years but he can contribute now because of his rare combination of size and skill. IMO he's a more gifted player than Backes, Doan or Clowe.

Scurr is online now  
Old
12-31-2012, 02:23 PM
  #1006
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
I for one don't mind if Kassian uses this time in the AHL to work on his Offensive game.... its not like he'll get a chance to do that if there is a season. We know he can play physical & hit (you don't forget how to do that) so him working on his playmaking, scoring...etc while not being physical doesn't really bother me as much as it seems to be bothering some of you.

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 02:38 PM
  #1007
Canucker
Registered User
 
Canucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Prince Rupert, BC
Posts: 18,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
I for one don't mind if Kassian uses this time in the AHL to work on his Offensive game.... its not like he'll get a chance to do that if there is a season. We know he can play physical & hit (you don't forget how to do that) so him working on his playmaking, scoring...etc while not being physical doesn't really bother me as much as it seems to be bothering some of you.
You don't have to work on one thing at the expense of another, offense and physical play aren't mutually exclusive...for myself I'd just like to see a bit more consistency.

Canucker is online now  
Old
12-31-2012, 02:48 PM
  #1008
whoshouse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
You don't have to work on one thing at the expense of another, offense and physical play aren't mutually exclusive...for myself I'd just like to see a bit more consistency.
I generally agree with you on this concept however, it is a bit different in Kassian's case since his reputation among refs around the hockey world is that he is a head case or a goon. It's hard to make an impact offensively while playing aggressively when you are constantly being called to the penalty box.

There's no doubt, in my mind, that Kassian will become consistent in all aspects of his game as he gets older, it just takes time for powerforwards to adjust to the different rule book that they must abide to.

whoshouse is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:09 PM
  #1009
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Do you have that list handy?



Kassian is inconsistent. I think some are just looking for him to make a strong impact when he gets a chance because he disappears more often than he should. So when he gets a chance to impact the game and doesn't do it, people are frustrated. Once he finds that efficiency in his game though, it won't matter how many big hits he throws. He will be trusted to influence the game more effectively. Regardless of the showmanship. That's when people will back off their high expectations I think.


Kid's got hands though, that's for sure.
For reference Jordan Schroeder has 15 EV strength points, Kadri has 14, Hodgson has 5 (albeit in less games), Couturier has 12, Schenn has 17, Nugent-Hopkins has 8, Hell Schultz and Eberle only have 20 EV strength points on a STACKED roster.

Sort of makes you wonder what Jordan would be putting up in a better PP situation, doesn't it?

arsmaster is online now  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:11 PM
  #1010
Canucker
Registered User
 
Canucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Prince Rupert, BC
Posts: 18,164
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoshouse View Post
I generally agree with you on this concept however, it is a bit different in Kassian's case since his reputation among refs around the hockey world is that he is a head case or a goon. It's hard to make an impact offensively while playing aggressively when you are constantly being called to the penalty box.

There's no doubt, in my mind, that Kassian will become consistent in all aspects of his game as he gets older, it just takes time for powerforwards to adjust to the different rule book that they must abide to.
I think thats more a maturity issue than anything else...become less rambunctious and more controlled, less Downie and more Doan. Like you said, it will come with time, but I don't think he needs to minimize playing physical and just work on offense. IMO he needs to work on blending it all together in a consistent manner.

Canucker is online now  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:35 PM
  #1011
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
For reference Jordan Schroeder has 15 EV strength points, Kadri has 14, Hodgson has 5 (albeit in less games), Couturier has 12, Schenn has 17, Nugent-Hopkins has 8, Hell Schultz and Eberle only have 20 EV strength points on a STACKED roster.

Sort of makes you wonder what Jordan would be putting up in a better PP situation, doesn't it?
Actually makes me think that if those players were over on the wolves, they'd still be putting up PP pts because those are some massively skilled players and schroeder isn't at the same level. Just because Schroeder can't run a PP and make things happen doesn't mean other players cannot. There are players who can be a driving force and some who cannot. Most of those players you mentioned can be.

I know its starting to make me sound negative, which is funny because im the opposite but the homer attitude here is crazy. Why would anyone even mention Schroeder in the same breath as some of those other players. Sure kadri but come on, some of the other players you guys mention? you dont need stats to know what players are way better. It doesn't matter who has more ES points or who has more PP points, etc etc. Schroeder isn't as good as most of those players ES or PP, doesn't matter if theyre close in points


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-31-2012 at 03:42 PM.
Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:39 PM
  #1012
14s incisor
Registered User
 
14s incisor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 590
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Actually makes me think that if those players were over on the wolves, they'd still be putting up PP pts because those are some massively skilled players and schroeder isn't at the same level. Just because Schroeder can't run a PP and make things happen doesn't mean other players cannot
Yes. Because playing with other players that are far more skilled than the guys Schroeder plays with doesn't have any effect on their output, at all....

14s incisor is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:40 PM
  #1013
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Yes. Because playing with other players that are far more skilled than the guys Schroeder plays with doesn't have any effect on their output, at all....
Yes Schroeder is as good as all of them, stats say so. Just look at the ES pts pace!!!!

Stop with the comparing of ES points

I think Schroeder is having a decent season, i think Kassian is underwhelming, brings their points close. Doesn't change who they are as players or their skill level or their value. Kassian will always be the more valuable and nhl ready player capable of much more.

Schroeder has the same ES points as alot of edmonton stars, all that means is schroeder is currently doing decent at ES and suffering on the PP, it tells you NOTHING else. Hes not near the player they are. Period. It doesn't tell you how hes going to perform in the nhl, it doesn't tell you anything!


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-31-2012 at 03:46 PM.
Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:43 PM
  #1014
14s incisor
Registered User
 
14s incisor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 590
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Yes Schroeder is as good as all of them, stats say so. Just look at the ES pts pace!!!!
Nobody is saying he's as good as them.

14s incisor is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:45 PM
  #1015
shortshorts
The OG Kesler Hater
 
shortshorts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,591
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Actually makes me think that if those players were over on the wolves, they'd still be putting up PP pts because those are some massively skilled players and schroeder isn't at the same level. Just because Schroeder can't run a PP and make things happen doesn't mean other players cannot. There are players who can be a driving force and some who cannot. Most of those players you mentioned can be.

I know its starting to make me sound negative, which is funny because im the opposite but the homer attitude here is crazy. Why would anyone even mention Schroeder in the same breath as some of those other players. Sure kadri but come on, some of the other players you guys mention? you dont need stats to know what players are way better. It doesn't matter who has more ES points or who has more PP points, etc etc. Schroeder isn't as good as most of those players ES or PP, doesn't matter if theyre close in points
Just curious... How many Wolves games have you watched, and also how many other teams in the AHL have you watched?

shortshorts is online now  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:46 PM
  #1016
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Just curious... How many Wolves games have you watched, and also how many other teams in the AHL have you watched?
I wouldn't be somewhat patronizing if i hadn't watched alot of AHL.

Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:47 PM
  #1017
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
Nobody is saying he's as good as them.
No but why even compare their numbers then? To show comparing numbers is silly? I think you bringing up comparisons of his numbers vs players much much better actually went against what you were implying

Im simply disagreeing that these stars would all of a sudden suffer if they came here. Stars are stars. They are highly touted for a reason.

We dont even have a star or top 10 pick potential, so to judge what a player could do here if they played on this team is a bit strange to me

RNH would still be dominating on the PP here or any team he played on. Just like the NHL, a star will get his points, they always do. Nash isn't going to get any more pts in New York. Its teh fringe and 2nd tier players where it matters when and where they play


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-31-2012 at 03:54 PM.
Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 03:56 PM
  #1018
14s incisor
Registered User
 
14s incisor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 590
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
No but why even compare their numbers then? To show comparing numbers is silly? I think you bringing up comparisons of his numbers vs players much much better actually went against what you were implying
It wasn't me who implied it. It was another poster.

It does show a number of things, though; it shows that he is putting up respectable numbers at ES despite playing with far inferior linemates, it shows that these other players are playing at a similar level at ES and are getting rewarded with first unit PP time (which JS isn't, for some reason), and it shows that the Wolves have a serious problem on the PP and seems to lend credence to what some are saying regarding Arniel's poor personnel decisions on the PP.

14s incisor is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 04:02 PM
  #1019
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14s incisor View Post
It wasn't me who implied it. It was another poster.

It does show a number of things, though; it shows that he is putting up respectable numbers at ES despite playing with far inferior linemates, it shows that these other players are playing at a similar level at ES and are getting rewarded with first unit PP time (which JS isn't, for some reason), and it shows that the Wolves have a serious problem on the PP and seems to lend credence to what some are saying regarding Arniel's poor personnel decisions on the PP.
I think people automatically assume grass is greener on the other side, do you not think the coach is capable of judging a player, you truly think if schroeder was that player on the 1st pp, all of a sudden, he'd turn it into a producing PP. Schroeder isnt' put there because hes not a player capable of doing much more than the players he has on that PP. When he shows this on the 2nd, he might get bumped up. He isn't getting 0 chances to prove himself.

I personally dont think hes proved to be the number pp guy on the team, though i do think our number 1 pp is struggling but do i think it'd improve if schroeder was there, nope. though it would make me less confident about the 2nd PP. I dont think you put a guy who is mediocre up on the first line because your better player is playing lousy. I think they need to play their way up there with very good play. I dont want to see Lapierre filling in for Henrik if henrik isn't playing well, though it'd be a different story if lapierre upped his game and started to force him out at the same time they henrik was playing bad

I think this board is real quick to throw blame anywhere other than the player. I think coaches are always at fault on this board. I bet if you ask the players, they all know theyre capable of more

He is a a chicago wolves player, if the team is struggling on the PP, hes just as responsible, he hasn't shown any more than any other player on the PP

Anyway my only point was those players would get their points on the PP if they were on this team, thats all i said! And you can go ahead and think thats false but i'd be amazed if you can actually argue that RNH, Schultz , Eberle and whoever else you want to include would all of a sudden suffer and become lousy PP producers on this team.

I never even argued his ES points weren't good or hes not producing at a normal pace or even that he should or shouldn't be on the 1st pp. haahha , i said one thing. That i believe those players (RNH, Schultz, Eberle) are capable of being the driving force. So i dont think they would suffer if they came here (thought the only point i was trying to make was obvious)

Whenever i mention anything that looks like it may be negative about a prospect, people are quick to defend him. You literally took something that wasn't even there and span it into a debate about a single player. hah

If you were going to take something out of my post and debate, the only thing you should have argued is that those players would indeed fail if they came here (because thats all i argued). But i believe if youve watched enough of those players, i think it'd be obvious that would not be the case, and there is no stats to prove either side wrong. Sadly


Last edited by Pseudonymous: 12-31-2012 at 04:17 PM.
Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 04:17 PM
  #1020
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
I think people automatically assume grass is greener on the other side, do you not think the coach is capable of judging a player....
Scott Arniel? .... No

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 04:19 PM
  #1021
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Scott Arniel? .... No
Everybody thinks theyre a coach, haha.

i truthfully think most fans think they could be a coach or a gm and do better than the one of the team they watch

they'd have all their prospects playing the top line schroeder and kassian all day long baby!!!!

Hell if it was most fans here, schroeder who wont even make the nhl this year if it resumes (even with the big center holes) would be the 2-3rd line C. Corrado would definitely be in the canucks lineup

because the unknown is always better (which is the exact same reason why people believe schroeder should be the top center in every scenario)

Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
12-31-2012, 04:27 PM
  #1022
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pseudonymous01 View Post
Everybody thinks theyre a coach, haha.

i truthfully think most fans think they could be a coach or a gm and do better than the one of the team they watch

they'd have all their prospects playing the top line schroeder and kassian all day long baby!!!!

Hell if it was most fans here, schroeder who wont even make the nhl this year if it resumes (even with the big center holes) would be the 2-3rd line C. Corrado would definitely be in the canucks lineup

because the unknown is always better (which is the exact same reason why people believe schroeder should be the top center in every scenario)
Yup because I said I think I can be a coach & would do all of that

I just think Scott Arniel is an awful coach, not saying I could do a better job. Just basing it off how the team has performed this year compared to last & his past track record.

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.