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Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

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Old
12-31-2012, 05:04 PM
  #301
SaintPatrick33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Atlanta is not equivalent to the habs wrt the history or influence on the league.
Whether you like it or not they're still a part of the history of the NHL and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that go away. The Habs and the Leafs haven't been relevant in 20 years (hell, the Leafs haven't been relevant in 45 years).....but the Devils, Avalanche, and Stars have.

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12-31-2012, 05:07 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Keep in mind that it's not like Quebec and Winnipeg were welcomed with open arms by more established franchises, or the league itself for that matter.
In fact, the Leafs and the Habs tried to block the Nordiques, Jets, and Oilers from coming into the league and it took a Canada wide boycott of Molson to get the Habs to buckle.

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12-31-2012, 05:16 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I don't know what established teams are liabilities (I'm not even sure if there's an official definition of "established"). We don't have the financials for any of the teams - including the southern expansion teams - so there's no way anyone can accurately make an assessment about either. I've asked several times for a link to something that shows which teams have received revenue sharing and how much they've gotten, which I think would be helpful to know, but I've never gotten an answer. The only portion of the answer I can give is that the Lightning have only gotten it once.

I don't think southern expansion teams are immune to the same fate, I just don't think they should be the exclusive victims.

But, again, contraction isn't going to happen, anyway.
The presumption is that if, for example, the sens w ere run as poorly as the thrash or the yotes that Canadian fans would clamor for the league to rescue the sens. Short term, perhaps but not long term.
Canada has lost two teams ( one came back) and it sucks but that's the way it is. Looking at the southern teams and voicing the opinion that there are great fans but not enough of them gets one of two canned responses
1). You are an anti southern elite st
2) we need more time on someone else's dime

It seems that the prevailing opinion is that even if the southern teams are poorly run, for a decade or more, that it is the responsibility of the established markets to prop them up in perpetuity, even if this is to the detriment of established markets,

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12-31-2012, 05:19 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
The presumption is that if, for example, the sens w ere run as poorly as the thrash or the yotes that Canadian fans would clamor for the league to rescue the sens. Short term, perhaps but not long term.
Canada has lost two teams ( one came back) and it sucks but that's the way it is. Looking at the southern teams and voicing the opinion that there are great fans but not enough of them gets one of two canned responses
1). You are an anti southern elite st
2) we need more time on someone else's dime

It seems that the prevailing opinion is that even if the southern teams are poorly run, for a decade or more, that it is the responsibility of the established markets to prop them up in perpetuity, even if this is to the detriment of established markets,
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.

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12-31-2012, 05:19 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Whether you like it or not they're still a part of the history of the NHL and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that go away. The Habs and the Leafs haven't been relevant in 20 years (hell, the Leafs haven't been relevant in 45 years).....but the Devils, Avalanche, and Stars have.
Perhaps as a footnote. But if any of the southern markets has 1/5th the market of the have or leafs, we wouldn't be in this mess. But they don't, so we are.

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12-31-2012, 05:21 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.
I don't care about the NFL. Their TV deal saves them, the nbcsn deal does not save the week sisters of the NHL.

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12-31-2012, 05:26 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I don't care about the NFL. Their TV deal saves them, the nbcsn deal does not save the week sisters of the NHL.
Apparently you don't care about the NHL either.....just your local team.

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12-31-2012, 05:36 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Apparently you don't care about the NHL either.....just your local team.

I've advocated for the leafs, not my local team.

Aparrently by your logic a guy in the show for a cup of coffee is the same as a perrenial all star, both are part of the games history. Some teams are equally forgettable as the cup of Coffey player.

I don't have to worry about my team going anywhere.

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12-31-2012, 05:43 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I've advocated for the leafs, not my local team.

Aparrently by your logic a guy in the show for a cup of coffee is the same as a perrenial all star, both are part of the games history. Some teams are equally forgettable as the cup of Coffey player.
Wouldn't Stanley Cup winning teams be a part of the game's history, as well?

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I don't have to worry about my team going anywhere.
Neither do most of the rest of us!

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12-31-2012, 05:43 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I've advocated for the leafs, not my local team.

Aparrently by your logic a guy in the show for a cup of coffee is the same as a perrenial all star, both are part of the games history. Some teams are equally forgettable as the cup of Coffey player.

I don't have to worry about my team going anywhere.
The Leafs have been eminently forgettable for the past 45 years and no amount of rhetorical CPR is going to change that. I know it just kills some people but the Devils have been a far more successful franchise over the past 20 years.....and FAR more relevant to the NHL than the Leafs.

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12-31-2012, 05:54 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The Leafs have been eminently forgettable for the past 45 years and no amount of rhetorical CPR is going to change that. I know it just kills some people but the Devils have been a far more successful franchise over the past 20 years.....and FAR more relevant to the NHL than the Leafs.
You are confusing on ice performance with market. The leafs can suck for a decade and still be the hottest ticket in the league. If ANY of the southern expansion teams had the same performance as the leafs they would no longer be there.

Short term many teams have bested the leafs. That does not change the fact that they print money and if the weak sisters could better emulate the leafs we would not be in this mess,

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Last edited by Fugu: 12-31-2012 at 10:22 PM. Reason: no need to make it personal about the other poster
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12-31-2012, 06:19 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
You are confusing on ice performance with market. The leafs can suck for a decade and still be the hottest ticket in the league. If ANY of the southern expansion teams had the same performance as the leafs they would no longer be there.

Short term many teams have bested the leafs. That does not change the fact that they print money and if the weak sisters could better emulate the leafs we would not be in this mess,
That's what happens when the US has much stronger overall sports markets than Toronto and Montreal. It's not like we have 1 main sport and that's it. Of course a bad team product is going to drive some people away when there's more than just 1 big thing. But that doesn't mean it can't work. Market situations are not the same here as they are in Canada. Because of that you see things different. This is my personal opinion. Good for Toronto and Habs for having such a strong market. But don't try comparing these sports markets.They aren't the same.

Look at it this way. You could arguably say that US markets need a good on-ice product to be successful financially whereas Toronto and Montreal don't. You can look at southern markets like a lot of other people do, but go ahead and look at powerhouse Pittsburgh. They were under talks of relocation just a few years ago for heaven sake until they improved their on-ice product and the overall team got their stuff together. It's not the same here as it is in Canada. It's not the same everywhere here. Not just the south.

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12-31-2012, 07:10 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Whether you like it or not they're still a part of the history of the NHL and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that go away. The Habs and the Leafs haven't been relevant in 20 years (hell, the Leafs haven't been relevant in 45 years).....but the Devils, Avalanche, and Stars have.
Your mistaking relevance with on-ice success.

Two often-interrelated, but very different metrics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.
I haven't heard any complaints from the Leafs or Rangers either, though I distinctly remember Ted Leonisis whining about assisting Canadian markets in the late 1990's/early 2000's despite the fact that it amounted to a simple giveback of Canadian TV money to Canadian teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrailSwan View Post
That's what happens when the US has much stronger overall sports markets than Toronto and Montreal. It's not like we have 1 main sport and that's it. Of course a bad team product is going to drive some people away when there's more than just 1 big thing. But that doesn't mean it can't work. Market situations are not the same here as they are in Canada. Because of that you see things different. This is my personal opinion. Good for Toronto and Habs for having such a strong market. But don't try comparing these sports markets.They aren't the same.

Look at it this way. You could arguably say that US markets need a good on-ice product to be successful financially whereas Toronto and Montreal don't. You can look at southern markets like a lot of other people do, but go ahead and look at powerhouse Pittsburgh. They were under talks of relocation just a few years ago for heaven sake until they improved their on-ice product and the overall team got their stuff together. It's not the same here as it is in Canada. It's not the same everywhere here. Not just the south.
I'm sorry, did the Raptors and Blue Jays relocate when I wasn't paying attention?

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12-31-2012, 07:20 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by FrailSwan View Post
That's what happens when the US has much stronger overall sports markets than Toronto and Montreal. It's not like we have 1 main sport and that's it. Of course a bad team product is going to drive some people away when there's more than just 1 big thing. But that doesn't mean it can't work. Market situations are not the same here as they are in Canada. Because of that you see things different. This is my personal opinion. Good for Toronto and Habs for having such a strong market. But don't try comparing these sports markets.They aren't the same.

Look at it this way. You could arguably say that US markets need a good on-ice product to be successful financially whereas Toronto and Montreal don't. You can look at southern markets like a lot of other people do, but go ahead and look at powerhouse Pittsburgh. They were under talks of relocation just a few years ago for heaven sake until they improved their on-ice product and the overall team got their stuff together. It's not the same here as it is in Canada. It's not the same everywhere here. Not just the south.
I can see how you would like to compare the southern weak sisters to the pens, but I don't think they are equivalent. Just because some teams could potentially become the pens, does not mean that all of them could.

The concept of the strength of markets is, in my opinion, woefully misunderstood by non traditional markets. I have lived in the south and in Montreal and the only thing I have witnessed that is comparable is SEC football. If the sec grew to include McGill or the Concordia stingers( I know this is not possible) would people in Montreal have the same voice as people in tuscaloosaa, Knoxville or Gainesville ?

I am amazed at how we engrained sec football is in the south, even in regions that have no team or have teams that suck. That is how the NHL is perceived in the Canadian markets. In this analogy, the southern markets are like Rutgers or Boise state: capable of having vocal and passionate fans but not on the same level as Alabama, Florida, or Georgia ( among others). Could this change? Perhaps. Will Nashville or tampa bay or Dallas ever be on the same level as the leafs or habs? Not likely.

Instead of pretending to be the equals of mtl/for it we would be better if you spent your efforts trying to not be the next Atlanta or phoenix.

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12-31-2012, 07:25 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The Leafs have been eminently forgettable for the past 45 years and no amount of rhetorical CPR is going to change that. I know it just kills some people but the Devils have been a far more successful franchise over the past 20 years.....and FAR more relevant to the NHL than the Leafs.
Except the Devils aren't worth a billion dollars and don't form a major coast-to-coast cornerstone of the fans in a league that relies heavily on gate revenue. Whatever the on-ice record happens to be the NHL would be impacted far more if the Leafs were wiped out of existence than if the Devils were.

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12-31-2012, 07:31 PM
  #316
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How many teams should be in the NHL? As many as it can support within the economic system it can negotiate. The outcome doesn't determine the system, the system is determinative of the outcome.

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12-31-2012, 07:48 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The NHL is a North American sports league. Where else is it going to grow if not in the US? It's not like Canada isn't already fully immersed in hockey culture.
No, what I mean is, it's not really for the general growth of hockey, but rather a US exclusive kind of thing.

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12-31-2012, 07:52 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Its because "growing the game" isn't what the league, or anybody who espouses that cliche, really mean.

If they wanted to grow the game, they would still be participating in, and supporting the Champions Hockey League and the Victoria Cup. They would make efforts to support to World Championship, they would establish a true World Cup, they wouldn't threaten to pull of out the Olympics.

The NHL isn't interested in growing the game. They're interested in growing their league, exclusively in the United States. Nothing more, nothing less.
Exactly, Southern expansion isn't Hockey's only hope for "growth". This is an NHL situation, not hockey. I'd like to say its a business standpoint, nothing else.

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12-31-2012, 08:39 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.
I'm a Giants fan and I do all the time. The salary cap has created teams full of holes

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12-31-2012, 08:44 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
just to check, your saying that fans of established teams cant look at new market teams and come to the opinion that they are a train wreck ? the fact is that there are well run teams and teams that are not well run. If one of these teams meets the same fate as atlanta, I suspect my response will be the same, one of indifference. I dont think that the nhl is worse off without atlnta, i think it is far better off.
Anyone can call anyone else a train wreck.

Know what the difference is?

"Man, is Edmonton trying to win the race to the bottom or what? There's an organization that seems to revel in mediocrity."

versus

"Columbus has only made the playoffs once in 12 years. They don't deserve to exist."

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12-31-2012, 08:58 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Anyone can call anyone else a train wreck.

Know what the difference is?

"Man, is Edmonton trying to win the race to the bottom or what? There's an organization that seems to revel in mediocrity."

versus

"Columbus has only made the playoffs once in 12 years. They don't deserve to exist."



Are you kidding me?
If you insist equating current on ice performance with influence, we have nothing to discuss. No one says Columbus doesn't deserve to exist, what they are saying is Columbus' market is weak and might only get better with a dramatic change of fortunes, which is not likely to happen any time soon. If you are so convinced that Columbus is a viable market, when will they approach the oil market? 50 years?

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12-31-2012, 10:00 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
26. 25 current teams and add one in Seattle.

Anaheim Ducks
Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres
Calgary Flames
Carolina Hurricanes
Chicago Blackhawks
Colorado Avalanche
Detroit Red Wings
Edmonton Oilers
Los Angeles Kings
Minnesota Wild
Montreal Canadiens
New Jersey Devils
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Ottawa Senators
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
San Jose Sharks
St. Louis Blues
Tampa Bay Lightning
Toronto Maple Leafs
Vancouver Canucks
Washington Capitals
Winnipeg Jets

Then add a team in Seattle. 26 teams. I took out Columbus, Dallas, Florida, Nashville, and Phoenix. Lower fan bases when they are losing and do not provide consistent contention. Dallas is the only one I would second guess.
You would eliminate a team that finished in the top 8 the last two seasons and has 98% attendance recently? Dallas won a Stanley Cup. Doesn't count for anything either?

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Wouldn't it be better to move Phoenix to Seattle and keep them in the same alignment? What about moving Columbus to Quebec, or perhaps Florida (although I think the Panthers are okay)?

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12-31-2012, 10:13 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I'm a Giants fan and I do all the time. The salary cap has created teams full of holes
That's your issue then. The Giants organization doesn't complain and that's the only thing that counts.

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12-31-2012, 10:16 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
I haven't heard any complaints from the Leafs or Rangers either, though I distinctly remember Ted Leonisis whining about assisting Canadian markets in the late 1990's/early 2000's despite the fact that it amounted to a simple giveback of Canadian TV money to Canadian teams.
That's Ted's issue and quite frankly he needs to worry more about fielding a winner that isn't dependent on one whiny superstar than what assistance Canadian teams are getting from the league.

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12-31-2012, 10:25 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Instead of pretending to be the equals of mtl/for it we would be better if you spent your efforts trying to not be the next Atlanta or phoenix.
nice. on the other hand, since montreal won its last cup, tampa bay has one. carolina has one with a second trip to the finals. dallas has one too, i think. and now LA.

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