HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Pavel Bure vs Mats Sundin

View Poll Results: Bure vs Sundin in their Prime
Pavel Bure 99 77.34%
Mats Sundin 29 22.66%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-31-2012, 02:53 AM
  #1
Royal Canuck
M-V-P
 
Royal Canuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Burnaby/Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,934
vCash: 664
Pavel Bure vs Mats Sundin

Two very different styles, two different personalities, who was overall better in their prime? Mats has the advantage in leadership and size, but Bure had the speed and the skill. Take that into consideration during their prime, who would you rather have on your team?

I'd personally go with Bure, he could flip a game around in a matter of seconds, back to back 60 goal seasons with the Canucks and was 1 goal away from bringing Vancouver it's first Stanley Cup, but I do think Sundin also accomplished a lot in his career, and even ground for these two, neither won a stanley cup in their career and they were both inducted into the HOF this year.

So, who would you rather have in their prime? Sundin or Bure?

__________________

Twitter |HFBoards Contact | Blog
PSN - TBennz
"You have to hate losing, more than you love winning. "
Royal Canuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 02:59 AM
  #2
Dynamo81
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aussie in Moscow
Posts: 1,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Canuck View Post
Two very different styles, two different personalities, who was overall better in their prime? Mats has the advantage in leadership and size, but Bure had the speed and the skill. Take that into consideration during their prime, who would you rather have on your team?

I'd personally go with Bure, he could flip a game around in a matter of seconds, back to back 60 goal seasons with the Canucks and was 1 goal away from bringing Vancouver it's first Stanley Cup, but I do think Sundin also accomplished a lot in his career, and even ground for these two, neither won a stanley cup in their career and they were both inducted into the HOF this year.

So, who would you rather have in their prime? Sundin or Bure?
Also back to back leading goal scorer in the NHL with the Panthers (59 and 58 goal seasons) almost ten years after his back to back 60 goal seasons.

Dynamo81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 06:23 AM
  #3
Plural
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 30,242
vCash: 50
It has to be Bure.

If someone would make a poll Selanne vs. Bure in primes the outcome could be either winning. If someone would make a poll about Selanne vs. Sundin the outcome would be pretty much Selanne winning.

Plural is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 08:21 AM
  #4
JaymzB
Registered User
 
JaymzB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,740
vCash: 500
Bure is easily the better of the 2 in their prime. However, Id take Sundin for my team any day of the week, since his prime is basically 15 years as a excellent #1 centre. In a comparison such as this, I think that much longevity should be taken into consideration.

JaymzB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 04:40 PM
  #5
Evincar
I have found the way
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Prime: Bure
Career: Sundin

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 04:59 PM
  #6
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,509
vCash: 500
It is true we never saw Sundin quite hit the level of a 1994 Bure. Or maybe even a 2000 Bure. So I'll go with Pavel at his peak.

However, the remarkable consistency, reliability and health of Sundin has to come into play here. He would be the player you wanted for your franchise over Bure. Sundin was more of a team player, less erratic and seemed to make those around him better. Bure (much like a modern day version like Yakupov) is a guy who scored goals and wasn't thought of to do much else. Give me Sundin overall in that case, but Bure still had the best individual season

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 05:39 PM
  #8
tfong
HFBoards Sponsor
 
tfong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,188
vCash: 50
Bure, also his contributions in the defensive zone are vastly underrated. Bure was tough and dirty at ties when fighting for the puck in his own end but most people see him sitting at he blue line looking for a breakaway pass cuz that's all you really see in his highlights.

tfong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 10:06 PM
  #10
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It is true we never saw Sundin quite hit the level of a 1994 Bure. Or maybe even a 2000 Bure. So I'll go with Pavel at his peak.

However, the remarkable consistency, reliability and health of Sundin has to come into play here. He would be the player you wanted for your franchise over Bure. Sundin was more of a team player, less erratic and seemed to make those around him better. Bure (much like a modern day version like Yakupov) is a guy who scored goals and wasn't thought of to do much else. Give me Sundin overall in that case, but Bure still had the best individual season
This is a hard one as Sundin has a 16 year prime and in lots of those seasons he has very little help in TO.

Bure has a better peak and is the better goalscorer but his prime was interrupted by injuries and Sundin has an overall game and consistency that matches up as well, in fact better, than any 5-7 year stretch Bure has.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 10:13 PM
  #11
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
wow really puzzled by the 22-3 lead for Bure.

What are people taking as Bure's prime or are they just picking his best 5 seasons which did not come in a row.

Between 93-01 when his 5 best seasons took place he had 2 sub par years and also 2 seasons of 11 and 15 games played.

Maybe it's me but I treat Prime as a 5-7 year stretch.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-31-2012, 11:18 PM
  #12
Evincar
I have found the way
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This is a hard one as Sundin has a 16 year prime and in lots of those seasons he has very little help in TO.

Bure has a better peak and is the better goalscorer but his prime was interrupted by injuries and Sundin has an overall game and consistency that matches up as well, in fact better, than any 5-7 year stretch Bure has.
Sundin had a lot more help than Bure did imo.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 02:03 AM
  #13
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,952
vCash: 500
I'll make the homer argument that Sundin was better, since his prime years in Toronto allowed the Leafs to construct a pretty decent contending club around him, while Bure's Vancouver or Florida peak, take whichever or both, did not have the same level of stability that Sundin brought during 1998-2004 in Toronto. Sundin's one great statistical year, 1993, which is often overlooked, was also better than anything Bure put together.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 02:39 AM
  #14
Evincar
I have found the way
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'll make the homer argument that Sundin was better, since his prime years in Toronto allowed the Leafs to construct a pretty decent contending club around him, while Bure's Vancouver or Florida peak, take whichever or both, did not have the same level of stability that Sundin brought during 1998-2004 in Toronto. Sundin's one great statistical year, 1993, which is often overlooked, was also better than anything Bure put together.
Uh no. You know 1993 was an inflated scoring year right? And Bure had 13 more goals and 4 less points than Sundin that year anyway.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 04:33 AM
  #16
lakai17
Registered User
 
lakai17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,049
vCash: 50
Bure > Naslund

Bure > Linden

lakai17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 05:50 AM
  #17
ot92s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 741
vCash: 500
bure. its not close.

all you have to do is watch them play.

ot92s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 06:10 AM
  #18
Samzilla
Prust & Dorsett are
 
Samzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,008
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Bure > Naslund

Bure > Linden
Well duh.

Samzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 11:40 AM
  #19
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Uh no. You know 1993 was an inflated scoring year right? And Bure had 13 more goals and 4 less points than Sundin that year anyway.
Less being the operative word, Sundin outscored Bure that year playing in the same league.

Stephen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 12:28 PM
  #21
Evincar
I have found the way
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Less being the operative word, Sundin outscored Bure that year playing in the same league.
You said that Sundin's 1993 season was better than any season of Bure's, when its debatable if Sundin was even better than Bure that year.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 01:17 PM
  #22
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
Also, Bure played on a line with Greg Adams and Anatoli Semenov that year. Compared to Sundin's linemates on the stacked Nordiques squad, Bure's linemates were very underwhelming. Sundin played with Joe Sakic and Owen Nolan.
The Nords were not stacked, they were still very young, many players would go on to have great careers but Sundin and Ricci were 21, nolan 20 and Sakic 23.

Sundin also had the best year 9 points ahead of Sakic and I don't remember the lines that year but pretty sure Sundin didn't play all year with Sakic and Nolan either.

Semenov only played 62 games that year and Adams 53

Quote:
There is no comparison. Bure made all sorts of plays and created all sorts of chances for his linemates. If he had played with Sakic and Nolan instead, he would have surpassed 114 points with ease. Not to mention Sakic's above average playmaking abilities would have elevated Bure to another level entirely.
Bure was very much like AO, a guy who wanted the puck and drove to the net, not much of a setupman at all, not sure he scores any better with those Nords teams as there is only 1 puck to go around and with all of that talent why do you suggest that Bure would score more?

It's neither here or there, Sundin simply outscored him.

Quote:
Based on his desire to play and the injuries he suffered in that short span, one might say Pavel was not anywhere near 100% in 1996-97. By 1997-98, he had returned to form.

If Pavel hadn't been injured in 1995-96, and had not refused to play in 1998-99, Pavel's resume may very well have shown 10 years of consistent output. He didn't become "average" at any point during that ten-year period; poor, unfortunate circumstances simply robbed him of those years. With Pavel's ability to play hockey, those would have been an excellent ten years for him had he been a bit luckier with injuries. Pavel's prime never really ended during his career. Injuries destroyed his chance to play during those years and ultimately ended his career.
Wait a second here if you want to give Pavel Brownie points for his desire to play you have to take them away for not wanting to play and holding out as well.

Quote:
A relatively healthy Bure would have played consistently at peak level throughout the entire 1990s and into the 2000s. He would have had a fairly lengthy, consistent prime. When he retired, he was still playing in top form. It's unfortunate what happened. He is a "what if" player. On a team with above-average linemates, enjoying a healthy career, Pavel would have reached incredible milestones, and we would be making much greater comparisons right now than Bure vs Sundin.
So if Bure had had the better 5-7 year straight prime, with all of those ifs, he would have been better than Sundin in his best 5-7 year run?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
One of his linemates would go on to play in five NHL all-star games, the other in thirteen. His centerman, Joe Sakic, would become one of the greatest centermen of all time.

The same can not be said about Anatoli Semenov, an aging Murray Craven, or even Cliff Ronning. Unsurprisingly, Semenov and Ronning had career numbers that year centering Bure. Additionally, while the opposition could always pit their top defensemen against Bure, the Nordiques had four stars (Sakic, Sundin, Ricci, Nolan) playing in their top six, making defense much more difficult for the opponent.
you are really pumping up that avs team and we were talking about who they were and what they did in 93 not after Sundin was traded to the desert in Toronto.

It's pretty obvious that prime is not consecutive with you so that's fair, Bure is by far the better goal scorer but I'd still take Sundin's best 7 seasons (you know the ones were I can pick and choose the best arguments for age, linemates, team support ect...) over Bure's with his complete game and the center position and the responsibilities that come with it.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 01:48 PM
  #23
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,461
vCash: 931
I think it's hard to compare a norse god to an old, usually disarmed soviet terrorist weapon. I'll go with Sundin here. A man that carried our national team for almost two decades, versus one that had a semifinal outburst in 1998 and not much more.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 01-01-2013 at 02:01 PM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 05:10 PM
  #24
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Anyone voting for Sundin is either biased or doesn't know what they are talking about.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 06:19 PM
  #25
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,163
vCash: 500
Definitely Bure here, he was simply the more productive and talented player in his prime. I wonder what their point finishes are? they may be fairly close but I still think Bure likely has an edge.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.