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Paul Martin Trade or Buyout? (if there's a season)

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Old
12-30-2012, 04:14 PM
  #101
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
It would take a monumental drop in performance for him not to.
I don't think what appears to be a monumental drop in performance would be out of the question if he is expected to play 20+ minutes a night vs stronger competition.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If Martin doesn't get back on track in a reasonable number of games whenever the NHL starts up and we hang onto him regardless, we're setting ourselves up for another playoff failure. We might not know 100% whether Engelland can be useful in a top 4 role, but we know for a fact that an '11-'12 Martin will do nothing but hurt the team.
And again, that is my point. Give Martin a chance to get back to form. He has been too good of a player for too long to just give up on him for one bad season without having a proven replacement available. I fully expect Paul Martin to be a substantially better hockey player than Deryk Engelland this upcoming season. Aside from the playoffs (where Engelland was playing like 10 minutes a game), I still don't buy that he wasn't last year.
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Absolutely. I have no idea why some would be so scared to use him in a bigger role that they would entertain the thought of another playoffs from Martin like his last.
I'm fine with giving him a shot at it. But I don't want to take away the closest thing to a safety net we have before we find out how he handles it. We are already going to be bumping Niskanen up to the top 4. We don't want to completely rebuild the defense with guys who have never proven that they can successfully fill the role we need them to fill.

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12-30-2012, 04:28 PM
  #102
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Theoretically, that's not a problem whether Martin stays or goes. Martin's replacement would be internal and as the roster is not capped in the post season Bylsma could just bench him and play one of the kids.
Right.

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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I don't think what appears to be a monumental drop in performance would be out of the question if he is expected to play 20+ minutes a night vs stronger competition.

And again, that is my point. Give Martin a chance to get back to form. He has been too good of a player for too long to just give up on him for one bad season without having a proven replacement available. I fully expect Paul Martin to be a substantially better hockey player than Deryk Engelland this upcoming season. Aside from the playoffs (where Engelland was playing like 10 minutes a game), I still don't buy that he wasn't last year.

I'm fine with giving him a shot at it. But I don't want to take away the closest thing to a safety net we have before we find out how he handles it. We are already going to be bumping Niskanen up to the top 4. We don't want to completely rebuild the defense with guys who have never proven that they can successfully fill the role we need them to fill.
Come on now.

We have different degrees of faith in Engelland. I'm fine with giving Martin a finite period to show last year was an aberration, but I don't want him around in the playoffs if he hasn't. There's too much at stake to have him leisurely gliding around back there avoiding hits and losing puck battles again when it matters.

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12-30-2012, 04:34 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Come on now.
There were definitely stretches of the season where Martin was playing just fine and getting hated on anyway. He was not terrible all year. He wasn't even bad all year. There is no doubt in my mind that we would have been worse off with Engelland playing in Martin's position all of last regular season.

The playoff series is a different story.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We have different degrees of faith in Engelland. I'm fine with giving Martin a finite period to show last year was an aberration, but I don't want him around in the playoffs if he hasn't. There's too much at stake to have him leisurely gliding around back there avoiding hits and losing puck battles again when it matters.
Agreed. If Martin hasn't solidified himself as one of our top 4 d-men by mid-season then we should look into other options.

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12-30-2012, 08:08 PM
  #104
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I think part of the rebirth of Paul Martin may be his defense partner. I HATED seeing him and Letang together. It often looked like a jailbreak. I'm not a believer in the whole "5 guys up, 5 guys back" approach to hockey. I like having a stay-at-home guy on every line (every pairing). AND, I also like pairing a physical dude with a non-physical dude.

Therefore, I really like the idea of Martin paired with Engelland. Not as much Martin with Niskanen or Letang. IF Robert Bortuzzo wins a job, he'd be a nice partner for Martin as well.

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12-30-2012, 08:50 PM
  #105
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I don't get why people think Martin will be bought out?

All indications are that Shero could have traded him if he wanted to during free agency, and Martin is obviously one of our best D-men. Poor value, yes, but clearly a top3 guy for us.

So you play him, and see how things pan out. I'm dreaming that he can show his genuine value so he can be traded for a decent return as our youngsters come into their own, but I sure don't believe Shero or Bylsma are ready to cut their losses on Martin before the kids have made them sure they're ready.

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12-30-2012, 09:02 PM
  #106
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There was a brief stretch (5 games or so) where he played well. Other than that, his play ranged from terrible to mediocre.

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12-30-2012, 09:17 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
There was a brief stretch (5 games or so) where he played well. Other than that, his play ranged from terrible to mediocre.
I am one of the biggest Martin critics on here, but this is just meaningless unless you are judging his performances relative to his cap-hit and those of our other D-men.

Martin was good for more than half of last season despite it being his worst ever season. Never a 5 million dollar D-man (some of us knew he couldn't be even before we signed him), but still easily a top 4 guy for us.

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12-31-2012, 08:23 PM
  #108
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I'm watching Pens vs Caps game 5 from 2009. God do I miss Scuderi and Gill.

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12-31-2012, 10:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
Simple point. After the 2013-14 season, Martin is the only NHL defenseman under contract. For those who are so sold on buying Martin out, look at the following (source: capgeek):

Martin (1 year remaining at 5,000,000)
Orpik (UFA)
Letang (UFA)
Niskanen (UFA)
Engelland (UFA)

After the balance of this present season, that leaves the Penguins with one season of a defense composed of somewhat-experienced defensemen under contract. For those considering buying Martin out, the Wilkes-Barre blueline is your future.
I don't see that as a problem. With Michalek gone, and if one or even both of Martin and Orpik go, we will have plenty of money to give Niskanen and/or Engelland nice and due raises if we still want them around, and if their play calls for it.


Orpik is a guy that we are going to make a decision on: we will either decide that he is a veteran presence whose leadeship we want long-term and he wants to retire here (and hence re-sign at somewhat of a discount); or we will decide that we have guys who can replace him and will be as good or better than him for the same or less money. My guess it is the latter, especially because he's got great trade value around the league right now (especially if we move him sooner than later, such as in the summer), and we have other big-bodied guys (Despres & Dumoulin in particular) who are NHL ready or will be by next season, and could take his spot. I think Orpik could garner as much as a late 1st rounder at the draft, or something in the order of two second round picks, a pick + a prospect, etc. He could really help bring in one or two forwards that we're looking for.


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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm watching Pens vs Caps game 5 from 2009. God do I miss Scuderi and Gill.

I've said this before, and I'm even more sure of seeing his play at the WJC's and specific areas he's improved in (skating, strength, physical play): I have ZERO doubt that Harrington is NHL ready right now; and with the balance of an OHL season to be had, likely another Memorial Cup run, and another off-season of training, Harrington will certainly be ready to not merely play in the NHL next season, but play a significant role in the top-6 and on the PK unit. He will be able to step right in and be as good as Z. Michalek was during his best times as a Penguin. You will not miss Scuderi at all once Harrington is in the line-up, but a big body like Gill would be great -- and I would still like us to make a push for Sustr this spring.


Now, if Harrington were to not start with the big club and start in the AHL instead, it would PURELY be because of the development and NHL readiness of guys like Despres and Dumoulin. I would classify that as a great situation, because if those latter 2 guys prove they are too good for the AHL, then that's a great problem to have, and it will mean that we're not forcing them into the line-up prematurely.

I woulld have no problem with the following situation. First, this season's defense (if there is a season):

Orpik-Letang
Niskanen-Engelland
Strait/Martin-Bortuzzo

Then, for the 2013-2014 season (Orpik getting moved at the draft or prior to the season):

Dumoulin/Despres-Letang
Niskanen-Engelland
Despres/Dumoulin-Bortuzzo
(if one of Despres or Dumoulin wasn't ready or got traded, substitute Harrington into one of those spots)

That's a very fine looking defense until we get to the point where we have young guys like Maatta, Morrow, Pouliot, Harrington and others pushing guys like Niskanen or other guys out of the starting 6. If we were able to sign Sustr, then he could possibly push Engelland or Bortuzzo out of the line-up, giving us another huge body, righ-handed shot, and then have the freedom to move one of Bortuzzo/Engelland, which could again bring us a very nice return. (Sign Sustr Shero!!)

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01-01-2013, 01:43 PM
  #110
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There is no way Engelland is going to be in the top 4 with Martin on the third pairing. Just not going to happen.

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01-01-2013, 02:01 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
There was a brief stretch (5 games or so) where he played well. Other than that, his play ranged from terrible to mediocre.
Martin had a strange year last year. He played pretty badly but was usually very good against the Rangers, Bruins and Flyers (at least during the season). I was waiting for those teams to tear him apart but he was getting to pucks first and moving them up ice in those games.

I think it says more about the Pens that everyone looked bad on D last year. Sure Niskanen and Engo looked good but everyone in the top 4 played some brutal hockey. That doesn't mean Martin gets off scott free but I do think there are bigger issues on the Pens.

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01-01-2013, 02:16 PM
  #112
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I don't see Engelland being a top 4 defenseman. I don't see the point in moving Orpik, we can keep him as he is a leader and can still be a productive defenseman.

If there is a season.

Martin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Strait-Engelland
Bortuzzo

2013-14

Despres-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Dumoulin-Engelland
Bortuzzo

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01-01-2013, 02:29 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't see Engelland being a top 4 defenseman. I don't see the point in moving Orpik, we can keep him as he is a leader and can still be a productive defenseman.

If there is a season.

Martin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Strait-Engelland
Bortuzzo

2013-14

Despres-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Dumoulin-Engelland
Bortuzzo
Bortuzzo isn't going to be a 7th Dman for 2 years. He's better than that, and it's not good for asset management.

Niskanen has specifically said that he prefers the left side, which is why he was a nice complement with Engelland. Nisky may ultimately get moved, but as long as he's here, he'll probably stay on that side, so I'm not sure how good he'd work with Orpik.

And finally: just like with Florida and Bouwmeester, or perhaps Calgary and Iginla (we'll see), I don't think it's great asset management to just let Brooks walk as a UFA -- and we may not have the cap space to retain him. Now, if he is truly outplaying Despres & Dumoulin, then I don't mind keeping him for a cup run. But Orpik was prett incosistent last year, has been pretty injury-prone for a few years, and is only getting older. If Despres, Dumoulin AND Bortuzzo (all guys who are 6'4) are playing great, and Engo is keeping it up, I will have no problem losing Brooks' size & physicality off our roster, especially considering he could probably bring us a really nice package in return.

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01-01-2013, 02:39 PM
  #114
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Orpik is a guy that we are going to make a decision on: we will either decide that he is a veteran presence whose leadeship we want long-term and he wants to retire here (and hence re-sign at somewhat of a discount); or we will decide that we have guys who can replace him and will be as good or better than him for the same or less money.
That's an interesting question. I feel that Orpik is in a similar, but not same, boat to Martin, however there is more uncertainty surrounding his future.

He's not getting more than what he is on now so if he rebounds this year, how is he fit under the cap with the blueliners coming through and Letang coming off contract? In this situation, Martin's a goner to provide flexibility under the cap (assumption: the cap is reduced to $60-odd million).

If Orpik doesn't rebound this season, do you try and resign him on a short, low-cost contract? He'd likely garner significant interest from elsewhere so you would have to think he's a goner via a trade.

Regardless, the blueline is going to be rebuilt from the bottom up in the next couple of years.

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01-01-2013, 03:07 PM
  #115
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Yeah, I don't see him being moved or bought out right away. Pens can afford to take some time with this.

I do think the fire has already been lit under Martin and he knows it. He knows he absolutely has to start playing better especially with a buyout possibly an option. Pens will give him one last chance to turn things around or use the buyout option if he doesn't. My guess is he won't be bought out until this off-season (summer) at the earliest.
I agree with this, I was going to post something along these lines.

I don't see the Pens moving him and going with a couple of "rookies" on defense, Shero and Bylsma will give him a final shot, if Martin can't turn it around, there's that buyout option in the off season and the Pens can sign a veteran that is bouncing around during free agency.


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01-02-2013, 05:35 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I am one of the biggest Martin critics on here, but this is just meaningless unless you are judging his performances relative to his cap-hit and those of our other D-men.

Martin was good for more than half of last season despite it being his worst ever season. Never a 5 million dollar D-man (some of us knew he couldn't be even before we signed him), but still easily a top 4 guy for us.
He's not a buyout option this year. The Pens have plenty of cap space. That said, unless he really steps up his game this year, I think he gets bought out over the summer. Frankly, he's the Pens only real potential buyout option.

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01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I am one of the biggest Martin critics on here, but this is just meaningless unless you are judging his performances relative to his cap-hit and those of our other D-men.

Martin was good for more than half of last season despite it being his worst ever season. Never a 5 million dollar D-man (some of us knew he couldn't be even before we signed him), but still easily a top 4 guy for us.
No, I'm basing it straight off of what I saw. The +/- threads where Martin WASN"T a minus were far and few between. He's a #3 who played like a #4/5.

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01-02-2013, 08:15 PM
  #118
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No, I'm basing it straight off of what I saw. The +/- threads where Martin WASN"T a minus were far and few between. He's a #3 who played like a #4/5.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

So what year was Martin a minus player 5v5? I missed it. The only thing I know is he unfortunately had to play with our worst Dman, Michalek for a large percentage of his shifts. Notice how his +- improved rapidly once Michalek was removed and also how Orpiks +- dropped as soon as Michalek was beside him. We all know that Letang deserves a large portion of the credit in helping Martin get back on the + side of things during the late part of the season. Just don't blame Martin for sucking in +-when he has to play along side of Michalek is all I'm saying.

Sure, I expect more out of Martin as a player and he will probably never be worth that 5 mil salary, but let's not cloud our judgement.

If you question how bad Michalek was last year (or even 2010), just look at his +- while on the ice vs the Pens +- while he was off. This has been a trend for the 2 years he was here. There was a reason the Pens accepted nothing tangible in return for him.

-.34 / 60min with Michalek on ice
+1.16 / 60min without Michalek off ice

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01-02-2013, 08:36 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...24+25+26+27+28

So what year was Martin a minus player 5v5? I missed it. The only thing I know is he unfortunately had to play with our worst Dman, Michalek for a large percentage of his shifts. Notice how his +- improved rapidly once Michalek was removed and also how Orpiks +- dropped as soon as Michalek was beside him. We all know that Letang deserves a large portion of the credit in helping Martin get back on the + side of things during the late part of the season. Just don't blame Martin for sucking in +-when he has to play along side of Michalek is all I'm saying.

Sure, I expect more out of Martin as a player and he will probably never be worth that 5 mil salary, but let's not cloud our judgement.

If you question how bad Michalek was last year (or even 2010), just look at his +- while on the ice vs the Pens +- while he was off. This has been a trend for the 2 years he was here. There was a reason the Pens accepted nothing tangible in return for him.

-.34 / 60min with Michalek on ice
+1.16 / 60min without Michalek off ice
Sorry. I meant "+/-" as in the post-game threads, not the statistic(s).

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01-02-2013, 08:56 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
No, I'm basing it straight off of what I saw. The +/- threads where Martin WASN"T a minus were far and few between. He's a #3 who played like a #4/5.
Those +/- threads are certainly far from official. This board was out for his blood. Martin was literally getting blamed for goals that happened while he was on the bench.

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01-03-2013, 03:53 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
He's not a buyout option this year. The Pens have plenty of cap space. That said, unless he really steps up his game this year, I think he gets bought out over the summer. Frankly, he's the Pens only real potential buyout option.
You don't need to use the option just because you have it though... no reason to buy out a player you can trade. And yes, Martin is trade-able no matter what his blindest critics will say .

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01-03-2013, 11:59 AM
  #122
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Now we are up to two buy outs. Martin is as good as gone at the end of this season. He may not be trade-able if other teams know he is a good buyout candidate. Why trade an asset for him if you know he'll be a free agent? It all depends on how he plays this season. A good season makes him trade-able, a poor season makes him buyout material.


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01-03-2013, 12:04 PM
  #123
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I'm watching Pens vs Caps game 5 from 2009. God do I miss Scuderi and Gill.
i watched Game 7 over Xmas

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01-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
You don't need to use the option just because you have it though... no reason to buy out a player you can trade. And yes, Martin is trade-able no matter what his blindest critics will say .
With a $60 million cap? Where the floor is $44 million and MANY teams will be spending around that number? Without seeing him play better hockey again?

There's no chance Paul Martin is tradeable now under the current climate.

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01-03-2013, 12:26 PM
  #125
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If this turns out to be true, sayanora Paul Martin.

Quote:
Michael Grange of Sportsnet reported on Thursday that the NHL has agreed to two compliance buyouts per team for the 2013-14 season, likely beginning this offseason. (Why the NHL is so against referring to them as “amnesty” buyouts is beyond us; must be a Frank Luntz thing.)

The NHL’s initial offer in this round of bargaining included a one-time buyout whose money would not count against the salary cap but would count against the players’ share of hockey related revenue. That the players agreed to this “keeping money outside the system” provision, and accepted a second buyout, is a significant concession.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/

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