Tavares in his rookie season had 54 points in 82 games and was -15. He had 67 points in 79 games in his second season and was -16. Last season he had 81 points in 82 games and was -6.
RNH in his rookie season had 52 points in 62 games and was -2. This season in the AHL he has 20 points in 19 games and is +7.
Based on those two metrics, you can't argue that Tavares has more POTENTIAL going forward than RNH. I understand there's more to it than simply points but when both RNH and Tavares were drafted they went to the worst team in the NHL. In the long run I see RNH's chances of winning an Art Ross to be much higher than Tavares.
Just for good measure here's another guy who isn't on the list but will have a major impact on RNH's career success along with Hall.
Jordan Eberle's rookie season saw him score 43 points in 69 games and he was -12. In his second season he scored 76 points in 78 games and was a plus 4 on the 29th place team in the NHL.
Both RNH and Eberle are better defensively than Tavares based on what we've seen so far. Throw in the potential future contributions of Hall, Yakupov and Justin Schultz and I see the career potential of RNH to be higher than Tavares.
Sure you can, and it isn't even that difficult. RNH had better support, and benefitted from playing on one of the best PP units in the league. You're trying to make an argument in a vacuum, where none exists.
Sure you can, and it isn't even that difficult. RNH had better support, and benefitted from playing on one of the best PP units in the league. You're trying to make an argument in a vacuum, where none exists.
To be fair, RNH is what MAKES them one of the best pp's in the league. He's already an elite power play specialist.
Tavares in his rookie season had 54 points in 82 games and was -15. He had 67 points in 79 games in his second season and was -16. Last season he had 81 points in 82 games and was -6.
RNH in his rookie season had 52 points in 62 games and was -2. This season in the AHL he has 20 points in 19 games and is +7.
Based on those two metrics, you can't argue that Tavares has more POTENTIAL going forward than RNH. I understand there's more to it than simply points but when both RNH and Tavares were drafted they went to the worst team in the NHL. In the long run I see RNH's chances of winning an Art Ross to be much higher than Tavares.
Just for good measure here's another guy who isn't on the list but will have a major impact on RNH's career success along with Hall.
Jordan Eberle's rookie season saw him score 43 points in 69 games and he was -12. In his second season he scored 76 points in 78 games and was a plus 4 on the 29th place team in the NHL.
Both RNH and Eberle are better defensively than Tavares based on what we've seen so far. Throw in the potential future contributions of Hall, Yakupov and Justin Schultz and I see the career potential of RNH to be higher than Tavares.
Read Below and to add to that argument of players (JT played with Comeau/Moulson vs RNH playing with Hall/Eberle in both their rookie years) NHL readiness vs NHL peak is NOT the same thing. JT was one of the worst skating top 6 forward skaters in the NHL and of average height(aka, he was likely the worst ice covering top 6 forward in the nhl). Now I don't think RNH's and JT's ceiling is as widespread as everyone thinks(I think their ceilings are really close), but this logic for projecting ceilings is illogical.
Example A:
JT's rookie season at 18: 24goals/54pts
Skinner at 18: 31goals/63pts
You really think Skinner has a higher ceiling than Tavares?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Sure you can, and it isn't even that difficult. RNH had better support, and benefitted from playing on one of the best PP units in the league. You're trying to make an argument in a vacuum, where none exists.
He will be very soon and you combine that with 30-40 goal 60-70 point production and he'll be the best forward in the NHL.
You really think Landeskog is gonna become Datsyuk or Hossa? That ceiling is beyond high for him imo. He's great and all, but I don't think he has the offensive skills for that. And even if he does, is really 35goals/70pts and being the best defensive winger in the nhl better than a 50goal/110pts statline with averagish defensive ability(say Malkin last year)?
Ya like how Bergeron is the NHL's best player right?
??? Bergeron has only scored 30 goals once and that was his 2nd year when he wasn't nearly as good defensively as he is now. Not to mention Landeskog is already a better forechecker than Bergeron and is only going to get bigger, faster and more deadly in that regard.
He will be very soon and you combine that with 30-40 goal 60-70 point production and he'll be the best forward in the NHL.
Thanks for the laugh. When is the last time a player that scores 60-70 points the best player in the league? Even if he is the BEST defensive forward in the league? Which Landeskog will not be anytime soon.
As for the OP, i'd say that Tavares is undisputedly #1, and RNH #2. Landeskog and Hall are very similar as they have intangibles and both will be captains and the leaders (Landy already is), but Landy will be better defensively and more physical and Hall will be a much better goal scorer and faster. I`d call them a draw for now.
he already put up an 80 point season with players that didn't belong in the nhl until they got a chance with him so there is that, those 2 teams also played all out offense win those players were putting up 100 point seasons in a slightly higher scoring league with those line mates, look at how average ovechkin's numbers are now
You really think Landeskog is gonna become Datsyuk or Hossa? That ceiling is beyond high for him imo. He's great and all, but I don't think he has the offensive skills for that. And even if he does, is really 35goals/70pts and being the best defensive winger in the nhl better than a 50goal/110pts statline with averagish defensive ability(say Malkin last year)?
well if you look at datsyuk i think it could be argued that every player has superstar potential based on the fact that he was drafted so late and where he is now
he already put up an 80 point season with players that didn't belong in the nhl until they got a chance with him so there is that, those 2 teams also played all out offense win those players were putting up 100 point seasons in a slightly higher scoring league with those line mates, look at how average ovechkin's numbers are now
Why does everyone exaggerate how bad JT's linemates are constantly?
Why does everyone exaggerate how bad JT's linemates are constantly?
i never said they were bad, i think that they are both quality support players but neither of them belonged in the nhl until they started playing with Tavares
Read Below and to add to that argument of players (JT played with Comeau/Moulson vs RNH playing with Hall/Eberle in both their rookie years) NHL readiness vs NHL peak is NOT the same thing. JT was one of the worst skating top 6 forward skaters in the NHL and of average height(aka, he was likely the worst ice covering top 6 forward in the nhl). Now I don't think RNH's and JT's ceiling is as widespread as everyone thinks(I think their ceilings are really close), but this logic for projecting ceilings is illogical.
Example A:
JT's rookie season at 18: 24goals/54pts
Skinner at 18: 31goals/63pts
You really think Skinner has a higher ceiling than Tavares?
I don't think Skinner has a higher ceiling but I do believe it's possible that Skinner may outperform Tavares the odd year here and there, which says a lot about Skinner's skill. I firmly believe that RNH will outperform Tavares the bulk of their careers. This is mostly because of the support that surrounds RNH. Unfortunately for Tavares, he doesn't have two 1st overall snipers on the wing and another elite sniper who keeps outperforming all expectations.
Here's the thing about RNH that you have never seen from Tavares to the same degree; RNH dominates on the PP. Edmonton's PP was terrible for years and now we get this one rookie and it gets elevated to 3rd and 20.6% vs 8th and 18.4% for the Islanders.
Prior to RNH's arrival the Oilers PP was 27th at 14.5% while the Islanders were 17th at 17.2%. That level of improvement says a lot more about RNH and his impact on the game and that will only grow as he gets better.
Finally the bolded part of your argument is problematic for me. Tavares' pre-draft hype and OHL performance was insane. He was basically deemed generational through Garth Snow's "Franchise Suicide" comment and broke Gretzky's goal scoring record in the OHL. They changed the rules to have him drafted to the OHL a year early and teams wanted to get this guy drafted a year early in the NHL too. But in the NHL he hasn't shown himself to be generational at all. He's elite but clearly a step below Sid, Geno, Stamkos and Ovi.
So you're right NHL readiness and peak aren't the same thing. If we examine NHL readiness, it appears RNH (the undersized centre who was cut from the World Juniors in 2011) was more NHL ready than the must have Franchise player. If you want to talk about peak, it's more likely that RNH will have more success on the ice. So tell me.....who's got the better potential based on their situation?
Sure you can, and it isn't even that difficult. RNH had better support, and benefitted from playing on one of the best PP units in the league. You're trying to make an argument in a vacuum, where none exists.
My post above addresses this point. You're wrong about RNH benefiting from playing on an elite PP unit because RNH is the reason the Oilers PP became elite. With 2 additional years, JT hasn't been able to have that big of an impact on his team's PP.
I've already agreed with the fact that RNH has better support around him than JT, and with Yakupov and Schultz joining the Oilers, it's only going to get easier for the Nuge. But let's not act as though Moulsen and Parenteau don't belong in the NHL and offense is definitely coming for the Islanders. Ryan Strome looks great and Kyle Okposo is pretty good too. Nino Neiderreiter, Calvin De Haan, Travis Hamonic, and Griffin Reinhart are all really talented prospects so JT will potentially have a great supporting cast.
Nugent put up 2 less points in 20 less games in his rookie year.
RNH has a great statistical year and would have put up more points if he played as many games as JT, but JT has improved every year dramatically in every weakness of his game and is so mature on and off the ice.
he already put up an 80 point season with players that didn't belong in the nhl until they got a chance with him so there is that, those 2 teams also played all out offense win those players were putting up 100 point seasons in a slightly higher scoring league with those line mates, look at how average ovechkin's numbers are now
And the Islander's don't play all out offense? Sorry but they don't play anything close to a defensive game, they actually play very similar to the 05-07 Pens and 05-07 Caps. Slightly higher scoring or not doesn't make up for a 20 point gap.
Ovechkin's "average" numbers are well below his standard, and on par if not better than Tavares norm....
Please, Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin have 100 point potential with any 3rd line scrub, Tavares doesn't, that's their clear separation. If you want to argue that he needs elite linemates to produce elite numbers, we'll put him on the same potential category as Heatley.
"Just because you have the potential to hit 100 points does not mean you will", umm exactly? Tavares isn't a 100 point guy yet either btw.. and who knows if he'll hit it, so he's in that same boat.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Tavares is better or even equal to Malkin or Crosby, or even Ovechkin of years past. I fail to understand the relevance of comparing those players, when this is about RNH/ Tavares. Tavares doesn't need to be better than those players to hit 100 points, nor will he need to in order to become a better player than RNH will.
Tavares has as much, if not more potential to hit 100 points more so than anyone else in the league who hasn't reached the milestone yet except Stamkos, maybe Giroux.
If it makes any more sense, If im building a roster and have the choice of having RNH or Tavares, I'm going Tavares for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconator
Depends what you mean by "potential". Because the way this thread is turning out, it's a points only contest. Landeskog and Hall will almost certainly never get as many points as Tavares and RNH, they play a vastly different game. Even Tavares and RNH are different in that RNH is much more skilled than JT, but Tavares work ethic is so great.
Also, I'd say John Tavares has already reached his potential. He was 7th in league scoring last year, that's pretty damn good if you ask me! It might take Ryan Nuggent Hopkins two more years, but he'll be a top ten scorer as well. He's just way to skilled not to be. If he can stay healthy.
If you're strictly looking at points, this would be my best guess. Keep in mind, they're all great young players!!!
Ryan Nuggent Hopkins
John Tavares
Taylor Hall
Gabriel Landeskog
lolwut
Seriously, Tavares has improved every single year and is only 22, how in the hell has he peaked yet? I would also disagree that RNH is more skilled than JT, but I can understand if one wanted to argue that. But to say he's much more skilled? Come on.
I don't think anybody is arguing that Tavares is better or even equal to Malkin or Crosby, or even Ovechkin of years past. I fail to understand the relevance of comparing those players, when this is about RNH/ Tavares. Tavares doesn't need to be better than those players to hit 100 points, nor will he need to in order to become a better player than RNH will.
Point was I don't think Tavares has the same potential or ceiling those 3 have, which was brought up earlier..
Quote:
Originally Posted by WangMustGo
Tavares has potential to be a 40g-75a if he hits his full potential and has a good team around him. All of these guys you listed have elite players around them. Ovechkin has Backstrom, Greene, and in the past Semin. Crosby and Malkin have one another, as well as Neal, Letang, and a group of great players around them. Put Tavares on a team like Pittsburgh and he could hit 100 points annually. I do think Crosby and Malkin have the highest ceilings in the NHL, but in my opinion those are the only 2 players with higher ceilings than Tavares.
This one is by far the most hilarious, because it's funny how this guy has forgotten how Penguins fans for the past 5 years have had to watch Crosby and Malkin deal with the worst top-6 wingers in the league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesBeBack
Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, and Ovechkin are not on "another level" than Tavares.
So you're right NHL readiness and peak aren't the same thing. If we examine NHL readiness, it appears RNH (the undersized centre who was cut from the World Juniors in 2011) was more NHL ready than the must have Franchise player. If you want to talk about peak, it's more likely that RNH will have more success on the ice. So tell me.....who's got the better potential based on their situation?
Completely honest, I made this thread because I thought RNH and JT had really similar potentials and wondered what people thought. I'd say they are even to a coin flip on overall potential if you asked me.
Who's got the better potential based on their situation? The 18yr old that put up a PPG before his injury and just had another 1st overall forward drafted to his team. Easy answer. If RNH and crew can stay healthy(and schultz can be a respectable offensive d-man), there is no reason at all to think that RNH can't put up a 90-100pts season within the next 2yrs.
Thanks for the laugh. When is the last time a player that scores 60-70 points the best player in the league? Even if he is the BEST defensive forward in the league? Which Landeskog will not be anytime soon.
I never said best player I said best forward
97 & 98 the 2 best forwards were Federov and Yzerman and they hovered around 60-70 points. I could also make an argument for Rob Brind A'mour in 06(30/70) and Jarome Iginla in 04(41/73)
97 & 98 the 2 best forwards were Federov and Yzerman and they hovered around 60-70 points. I could also make an argument for Rob Brind A'mour in 06(30/70) and Jarome Iginla in 04(41/73)
