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Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

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Old
12-31-2012, 11:18 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
If you remember Burke said he was in talks with Paul Holmgren about Mike Richards, then told him he would think about it and get back to him. So it's not his fault that while he was talking it over with his staff that Richards was traded to Los Angeles.
Actually, Burke was waiting for the call back from Holmgren if I remember correctly, never got the call back.

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12-31-2012, 11:25 PM
  #152
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10th in scoring when Burke took over. 10th in scoring last season.
30th in goals against when Burke took over. 29th in g/a last season.
23rd in the standings when Burke took over. 25th last season.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to HF and the professional nhl scouts that make THN rankings.
All after 4 bottom ten finishes.

The ONLY positive spin you can put on this disgrace of the team is the claim that, while the team doesn't score more goals, our current star players put up more points than our star players from four years ago.
Is that really good enough after four years of bottom 10 finishes?

I just don't understand...

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12-31-2012, 11:43 PM
  #153
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Are we saying that because of this lockout nonsense Burke deserves another year despite the fact that every GM is at the same disadvantage? No GM should be fired this year because of the shortened season... Do I have that right??

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12-31-2012, 11:46 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
10th in scoring when Burke took over. 10th in scoring last season.
30th in goals against when Burke took over. 29th in g/a last season.
23rd in the standings when Burke took over. 25th last season.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to HF and the professional nhl scouts that make THN rankings.
All after 4 bottom ten finishes.

The ONLY positive spin you can put on this disgrace of the team is the claim that, while the team doesn't score more goals, our current star players put up more points than our star players from four years ago.
Is that really good enough after four years of bottom 10 finishes?

I just don't understand...
Oh goody another Burke thread.

Now where have I seen this garbage before?

Same lame argument.

Seguin would not have made a difference to our fortunes so let the Kessel trade go.

There have been no UFA #1C's or G's that would come here. So you can let that go too.

We have a line-up loaded with young former 1st round picks. We're better off than most teams who have kept their 1st rounders over the last 10yrs.

So should Burke get another year? No he should get 3 more years.

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01-01-2013, 12:00 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Oh goody another Burke thread.

Now where have I seen this garbage before?

Same lame argument.

Seguin would not have made a difference to our fortunes so let the Kessel trade go.

There have been no UFA #1C's or G's that would come here. So you can let that go too.

We have a line-up loaded with young former 1st round picks. We're better off than most teams who have kept their 1st rounders over the last 10yrs.

So should Burke get another year? No he should get 3 more years.
Kessel didn't make a difference to our fortunes so why make the trade? Trading for late first round picks that other teams have moved on from makes us better off then which teams exactly??

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01-01-2013, 12:05 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Kessel didn't make a difference to our fortunes so why make the trade? Trading for late first round picks that other teams have moved on from makes us better off then which teams exactly??
Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, JVR are far from late 1st round picks.

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01-01-2013, 01:36 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Oh goody another Burke thread.

Now where have I seen this garbage before?

Same lame argument.

Seguin would not have made a difference to our fortunes so let the Kessel trade go.

There have been no UFA #1C's or G's that would come here. So you can let that go too.

We have a line-up loaded with young former 1st round picks. We're better off than most teams who have kept their 1st rounders over the last 10yrs.

So should Burke get another year? No he should get 3 more years.
So after four bottom 10 finishes, our prospects are ranked lower in a list created by professional nhl scouts.
We don't score more goals. We don't prevent more goals. We win less games.

What would have to happen for you to stop supporting Burke?
Because the facts listed above are a flat out atrocity. It's rock bottom. Yet you still support him.

It almost seems like I'm just joking, doesn't it? Pointing out those facts? They sound like a flat out lie. "After four years, don't score more goals. Don't prevent more goals. Win less games. Lower ranked prospects by professional nhl scouts".
It's almost stranger than fiction.
It's as bad as the realms of imagination could come up with. The most creative minds in human history wouldn't even be able to make up such failure.
Yet, it all really happened.
Those facts ARE the truth.

And the kicker? The thing that makes this the most puzzling of all? It's not the stranger than fiction outline of utter futility... it's the fact that some fans still support him. That's the part that makes me embarrassed to even be a part of the human race.
If people can be that blinded by their biases, it makes me scared for the human race and civilization as a whole. We're a petty petty species utterly unable to accept logic, rationality, and reason.
"I 'like' Burke, so he done good"

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01-01-2013, 03:17 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So after four bottom 10 finishes, our prospects are ranked lower in a list created by professional nhl scouts.
We don't score more goals. We don't prevent more goals. We win less games.

What would have to happen for you to stop supporting Burke?
Because the facts listed above are a flat out atrocity. It's rock bottom. Yet you still support him.
I'm not gonna call you wrong for not liking Burke but MAN you act like he came here and just sat on his ass and did nothing but crap for 4 years.

The guy above you is right, we would not have gotten a big name UFA.

4 years ago, we were an aging team with very few high end prospects(even though they were ranked better, I dont personally think they were better but whatever.)

Since then we've essentially added in terms of high end drafting goes: Kadri(who will make the team very soon) JVR(trade for schenn, could explode this year), Rielly, and Kessel(instead of Hamilton and Seguin). 3 forwards and a #1 D-man.
We've added Phaneuf, Gardiner, Lupul(probably one of the best trades in recent memory) as well through trade.

I dont think, on paper at least, that this team has looked any better at the defensive end, at least prospect wise. Not since the early 2000's. I dont know how you can say Phaneuf-Rielly
Gardiner-Gunnar/Finn/Shutdown d-man isn't an awesome or at least very competitive top 4.

I dont know how you can say
Lupul-????(yes this still sucks)-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Kulemin/Kadri isn't a solid top 6 on paper.

our one single problem, and this is the only problem I have with Burke, is the goaltending. If he gets luongo, all of you haters will **** and stop posting about standings this, standings that.

Our ONE massive reason for the poor standings is goaltending, we have had utter s*** goaltending the past few years, only Tampa has been worse in that area. The other was Wilson's system, which is now gone.

Seriously, add Luongo into the mix and people will start liking burke, because the forwards dont have to worry about every single shot going through(seriously, did half of you guys watch the games last year? even though the D was average, our goaltending was horrible!!)

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01-01-2013, 03:24 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Oh goody another Burke thread.

Now where have I seen this garbage before?

Same lame argument.

Seguin would not have made a difference to our fortunes so let the Kessel trade go.

There have been no UFA #1C's or G's that would come here. So you can let that go too.

We have a line-up loaded with young former 1st round picks. We're better off than most teams who have kept their 1st rounders over the last 10yrs.

So should Burke get another year? No he should get 3 more years.
So your logic is that crap results deserve extensions. Right!?

You can cry and ball about the "same lame arguments".

It's not an argument. It's the cold hard facts.

Why so fiercely loyal to the GM with the worst record in Maple Leaf history? Mind boggling.

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01-01-2013, 03:28 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I'm not gonna call you wrong for not liking Burke but MAN you act like he came here and just sat on his ass and did nothing but crap for 4 years.

The guy above you is right, we would not have gotten a big name UFA.

4 years ago, we were an aging team with very few high end prospects(even though they were ranked better, I dont personally think they were better but whatever.)

Since then we've essentially added in terms of high end drafting goes: Kadri(who will make the team very soon) JVR(trade for schenn, could explode this year), Rielly, and Kessel(instead of Hamilton and Seguin). 3 forwards and a #1 D-man.
We've added Phaneuf, Gardiner, Lupul(probably one of the best trades in recent memory) as well through trade.

I dont think, on paper at least, that this team has looked any better at the defensive end, at least prospect wise. Not since the early 2000's. I dont know how you can say Phaneuf-Rielly
Gardiner-Gunnar/Finn/Shutdown d-man isn't an awesome or at least very competitive top 4.

I dont know how you can say
Lupul-????(yes this still sucks)-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Kulemin/Kadri isn't a solid top 6 on paper.

our one single problem, and this is the only problem I have with Burke, is the goaltending. If he gets luongo, all of you haters will **** and stop posting about standings this, standings that.

Our ONE massive reason for the poor standings is goaltending, we have had utter s*** goaltending the past few years, only Tampa has been worse in that area. The other was Wilson's system, which is now gone.

Seriously, add Luongo into the mix and people will start liking burke, because the forwards dont have to worry about every single shot going through(seriously, did half of you guys watch the games last year? even though the D was average, our goaltending was horrible!!)
If Burke gets Luongo it will be hilarious. Probably the most hypocritical move in NHL history.

I hope it happens!!

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01-01-2013, 03:31 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I'm not gonna call you wrong for not liking Burke but MAN you act like he came here and just sat on his ass and did nothing but crap for 4 years.

The guy above you is right, we would not have gotten a big name UFA.

4 years ago, we were an aging team with very few high end prospects(even though they were ranked better, I dont personally think they were better but whatever.)

Since then we've essentially added Kadri(who will make the team very soon) JVR(trade for schenn, could explode this year), Rielly, and Kessel(instead of Hamilton and Seguin). 3 forwards and a #1 D-man. We've added Phaneuf and Gardiner as well through trade.

I dont think, on paper at least, that this team has looked any better at the defensive end, at least prospect wise. Not since the early 2000's. I dont know how you can say Phaneuf-Rielly
Gardiner-Gunnar/Finn/Shutdown d-man isn't an awesome or at least very competitive top 4.

I dont know how you can say
Lupul-????(yes this still sucks)-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Kulemin/Kadri isn't a solid top 6 on paper.

our one single problem, and this is the only problem I have with Burke, is the goaltending. If he gets luongo, all of you haters will **** and stop posting about standings this, standings that.

Our ONE massive reason for the poor standings is goaltending, we have had utter s*** goaltending the past few years, only Tampa has been worse in that area. The other was Wilson's system, which is now gone.

Seriously, add Luongo into the mix and people will start liking burke, because the forwards dont have to worry about every single shot going through(seriously, did half of you guys watch the games last year? even though the D was average, our goaltending was horrible!!)
Sometimes the cold hard facts are just the reality. It's not 'oversimplifying' as some say. It's just the reality.

The reality is that after four years, we don't score more goals, don't defend more goals, don't win more games, and have lower ranked prospects according to professional nhl scouts.

Four years is a long time. Any gm would have stumbled onto a few successes in that time. And sure... Burke has a few (I like Lupul, Gardiner of course, etc).
But nothing has changed the big picture. We're a worse team four years later. If our prospects were super elite, I'd have no problem. But they're unanimously considered mediocre (to everyone other than leaf fans).
It's unacceptable.

Let's also add in the fact that Burke has a $16 million payroll advantage over a substantial amount of the competition, the highest paid scouting department, and a ridiculously expensive front office to help him along the way.

With ALL of those ridiculous advantages and four bottom ten finishes in a row, he STILL hasn't improved neither our actual team or our prospects.
How can that be considered anything short of failure?
If that doesn't count as failure, then what on earth would?

To just blame the whole ridiculous situation on his inability to get a goaltender (which would still be Burke's fault) is simply an opinion. My opinion is that the team is so pathetic that even Luongo would struggle on the leafs.
But I'm sticking with facts. Burke, factually, has been terrible.

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01-01-2013, 03:34 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I'm not gonna call you wrong for not liking Burke but MAN you act like he came here and just sat on his ass and did nothing but crap for 4 years.

The guy above you is right, we would not have gotten a big name UFA.

4 years ago, we were an aging team with very few high end prospects(even though they were ranked better, I dont personally think they were better but whatever.)

Since then we've essentially added in terms of high end drafting goes: Kadri(who will make the team very soon) JVR(trade for schenn, could explode this year), Rielly, and Kessel(instead of Hamilton and Seguin). 3 forwards and a #1 D-man.
We've added Phaneuf, Gardiner, Lupul(probably one of the best trades in recent memory) as well through trade.

I dont think, on paper at least, that this team has looked any better at the defensive end, at least prospect wise. Not since the early 2000's. I dont know how you can say Phaneuf-Rielly
Gardiner-Gunnar/Finn/Shutdown d-man isn't an awesome or at least very competitive top 4.

I dont know how you can say
Lupul-????(yes this still sucks)-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Kulemin/Kadri isn't a solid top 6 on paper.

our one single problem, and this is the only problem I have with Burke, is the goaltending. If he gets luongo, all of you haters will **** and stop posting about standings this, standings that.

Our ONE massive reason for the poor standings is goaltending, we have had utter s*** goaltending the past few years, only Tampa has been worse in that area. The other was Wilson's system, which is now gone.

Seriously, add Luongo into the mix and people will start liking burke, because the forwards dont have to worry about every single shot going through(seriously, did half of you guys watch the games last year? even though the D was average, our goaltending was horrible!!)
Why wouldn't we have had a 1st round pick in 2012 if Burke wasn't here ? The crap people make up to defend Burke grows by the month .

It's also shocking how people ignore the fact that any GM that has finished 7th/2nd/9th and 5th last would have also added quality prospects .

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01-01-2013, 03:35 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
If Burke gets Luongo it will be hilarious. Probably the most hypocritical move in NHL history.

I hope it happens!!
In what sense? If you're talking about contracts, he only said he would never give out those kinds of long contracts, not about trading for them.

plus with the new CBA, all signs point to the team that made the contract to be on the hook when the player retires, so it wont hurt us one bit.

When Burke gets Luongo you'll be shedding tears of joy knowing what it's like to have a great goaltender, something we havent had since oh I dont know, 2003 or 2004?

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01-01-2013, 03:42 AM
  #164
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To just blame the whole ridiculous situation on his inability to get a goaltender (which would still be Burke's fault) is simply an opinion. My opinion is that the team is so pathetic that even Luongo would struggle on the leafs.
But I'm sticking with facts. Burke, factually, has been terrible.
Look I cant argue with the actual facts like standings and such.

you're right ,we're crap in that regard. In fairness we would've been crap no matter WHAT GM we had probably for about 3 years or so.

and to be honest I thought last year was the year we'd make the playoffs(really looking back, we were a playoff team or very close to one up until february).

I think he's failed on getting a #1 C for sure, and moreso failed on getting a better goalie, I think his one huge downfall is his reliance on inexperienced goalies, same thing plagued him in Vancouver(but I think he's somewhat realized this this year)

I would personally give him one more FULL season to prove himself, that's all, as I dont think bringing in a new GM will do much in the short term(really what can we do? we arent bad enough to be bottom 5 for the next 2 years IMO) bringing in a new coach was much more necessary.

I was fine with not making the playoffs from 08-2011, but last year was unexceptable. Give him one last year to prove where this team should be heading, then I'll judge him fully, as he's had 4 solid years to build this team(and IMO it does look solid on paper minus goaltending.)

Another year of this and the excuses will run out dont worry, I think many people put up excuses for him because they want to believe we can be better, and I do think we can, but will we actually show it in the standings soon? I hope so.

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01-01-2013, 03:43 AM
  #165
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In what sense? If you're talking about contracts, he only said he would never give out those kinds of long contracts, not about trading for them.

plus with the new CBA, all signs point to the team that made the contract to be on the hook when the player retires, so it wont hurt us one bit.

When Burke gets Luongo you'll be shedding tears of joy knowing what it's like to have a great goaltender, something we havent had since oh I dont know, 2003 or 2004?
I personally don't care if Burke is a hypocrite, a liar, a swindler... I just don't care.
I just want him to do something, ANYTHING, to make this disgrace of a team better.
If that means coming off as a hypocrite and acquiring Luongo, then go for it.
Believe it or not... as a leaf fan... I fully support Burke doing things that makes the leafs not suck. It's just barely even happened over the past 4 years. And as a leaf fan realist, I can acknowledge how pathetic Burke's tenure has been as a maple leaf.

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01-01-2013, 03:51 AM
  #166
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Look I cant argue with the actual facts like standings and such.

you're right ,we're crap in that regard. In fairness we would've been crap no matter WHAT GM we had probably for about 3 years or so.

and to be honest I thought last year was the year we'd make the playoffs(really looking back, we were a playoff team or very close to one up until february).

I think he's failed on getting a #1 C for sure, and moreso failed on getting a better goalie, I think his one huge downfall is his reliance on inexperienced goalies, same thing plagued him in Vancouver(but I think he's somewhat realized this this year)

I would personally give him one more FULL season to prove himself, that's all, as I dont think bringing in a new GM will do much in the short term(really what can we do? we arent bad enough to be bottom 5 for the next 2 years IMO) bringing in a new coach was much more necessary.

I was fine with not making the playoffs from 08-2011, but last year was unexceptable. Give him one last year to prove where this team should be heading, then I'll judge him fully, as he's had 4 solid years to build this team(and IMO it does look solid on paper minus goaltending.)

Another year of this and the excuses will run out dont worry, I think many people put up excuses for him because they want to believe we can be better, and I do think we can, but will we actually show it in the standings soon? I hope so.
Burke needed to choose either a full "rebuild" or "go for broke" attempt to be a playoff team in a few years.
He opted for the middle. A "retool".
If a rebuild was done properly (ala Edmonton), our team would look elite going into the future. Instead, we reek of the usual maple leaf "mediocrity" going into the future.
The "retool" leaves us looking mediocre in the present and future.

That's my fundamental problem with Burke's entire tenure thus far.

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01-01-2013, 04:02 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke needed to choose either a full "rebuild" or "go for broke" attempt to be a playoff team in a few years.
He opted for the middle. A "retool".
If a rebuild was done properly (ala Edmonton), our team would look elite going into the future. Instead, we reek of the usual maple leaf "mediocrity" going into the future.
The "retool" leaves us looking mediocre in the present and future.

That's my fundamental problem with Burke's entire tenure thus far.
Agreed. But why is "mediocrity" in quotes?

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01-01-2013, 04:34 AM
  #168
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Agreed. But why is "mediocrity" in quotes?
I think I meant to put it in italiacs.

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01-01-2013, 05:12 AM
  #169
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I think I meant to put it in italiacs.
That's really my big issue with him too. He went the retool route, which is at the very least a respectable path, when I think everyone was ready to blow it up and head down the long path to rebuild. It was certainly ambitious, but I'd prefer it if he had just cut the two years of trying to be competitive and just started selling guys off to the highest bidder.

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01-01-2013, 07:46 AM
  #170
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wow, you contradictied yourself in the same post.
read again and try to understand....

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01-01-2013, 08:57 AM
  #171
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I don't think people understand how hard it is to finish 30th and then stay 1st overall in the draft lottery.

This Leafs team with terrible coaching and goaltending was in a playoff spot the majority of the year. They're not in the same league as a Columbus.

The team is too good to get first overall. The only way they can is if the season is cancelled and they get lucky in the next lottery draft.

No GM in Toronto, where the pressure is huge and the franchise is worth a billion will be hired to finish 30th. Get that fantasy out of your heads.

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01-01-2013, 09:27 AM
  #172
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If the Leafs can't sign any UFAs this summer and flop in 2013 2014, then I'll get on the fire Burke bandwagon.

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01-01-2013, 09:31 AM
  #173
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does this mean we shouldn't question anything any nhl gm does? because they all have far more experience than any of us.

we should applaud everything they all do?
Questioning and tar-and-feathering is two entirely different things.

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01-01-2013, 09:35 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Oh goody another Burke thread.

Now where have I seen this garbage before?

Same lame argument.

Seguin would not have made a difference to our fortunes so let the Kessel trade go.

There have been no UFA #1C's or G's that would come here. So you can let that go too.

We have a line-up loaded with young former 1st round picks. We're better off than most teams who have kept their 1st rounders over the last 10yrs.

So should Burke get another year? No he should get 3 more years.
way to keep those blinders on.

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01-01-2013, 09:37 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
I don't think people understand how hard it is to finish 30th and then stay 1st overall in the draft lottery.
Indeed. I was in the process of posting this the other day when my computer crashed. People don't seem to realize how difficult it is to finish in the lottery year after year and realistically, the talent they want exists pretty much at #1 overall and sometimes #2 overall. There seems to be a built in assumption that you just flip a switch and voila, top 2 picks. Many years the difference from 3rd to 10th pick is around 10 points. That's a boat load of teams in a tight range. It really doesn't seem like a "plan" at all. A nice thought but more of a "cross your fingers, find a four leaf clover, wish on a shooting star" type of "plan".

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