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Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney

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Old
12-31-2012, 03:42 AM
  #101
nmbr_24
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Originally Posted by Booyakasha View Post
really?...

you can't do simple math.
He has never broken the 40 point range unless you are talking about the OHL.

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12-31-2012, 12:13 PM
  #102
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Tell me when has he broken the 40-49 point range, which is the 40 point range?
He's broken the 40 point barrier every season so far. So he HAS broken the 40-49 point range. If you are trying to say he hasn't scored 50 points in a season yet, then you're right, he hasn't broken the 50 point range yet.

The only way a Gagner or Whitney deal makes sense is if its for something that HF think is ridiculous anyway...like a Sean Coutourier+, Keith Yandle, or similar players. ie, a young top pair d-man, or young 2nd line center. Any other deal makes no sense for the Oilers, even if those kind of deals make no sense to other teams, simply because we aren't opening a larger hole to move these guys.

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12-31-2012, 01:14 PM
  #103
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If Gagner and Whitney don't have much value to the Oilers, who need a quality 2nd line center and Dman, they likely don't have much value to any other team.

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12-31-2012, 02:43 PM
  #104
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If Gagner and Whitney don't have much value to the Oilers, who need a quality 2nd line center and Dman, they likely don't have much value to any other team.
reading > This post

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12-31-2012, 03:08 PM
  #105
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reading > This post
Reading comprehension > Snarky naive response.

Was I actually taking that position or was I just pointing out the fundamental logical flaw of the OP?

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12-31-2012, 03:17 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Reading comprehension > Snarky naive response.

Was I actually taking that position or was I just pointing out the fundamental logical flaw of the OP?
I guess the Schultz for Gilbert trade was full of stupidity... Why trade a #3 Dman for a #3 Dman ..
There would be a flaw in logic if OP asked for another smaller\ not so gritty 2nd liner in return. Or another offensive puck moving Dman with similar contract\age.

EDM's needs due to a lot of young, skilled , small(er) forwards is probably different than other clubs.

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12-31-2012, 03:27 PM
  #107
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Hate? I'm just stating my opinion. Some of you Oil fans are used car salesmen. All summer we were being sold on Hemsky being an elite top line winger despite the fact that he can't ever stay healthy enough to prove such. Now you're attempting to sell us Gagner as a "legit" #2 center. I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I hate the guy. I just see him as a Cogliano type, small skilled who had success in juniors but couldn't translate to NHL.
Did you not imply the Oil will have to settle for "scraps" as return in a Gagner trade because the Bruins did so with Hamill, citing them as comparables based on size, draft status and player type. Except you may have overlooked the fact that Gagner made the NHL as an 18yr old and never looked back (221pts in 366 games), whereas Hamill has never once shown the ability to be an every day NHLer (4 pts in 20 career games). You don't find your suggestion a bit hyperbolic?

It's already been pointed out that there are very few teams that he would be a 2nd line centre on, but the fact that he would be a 2nd line C on a handful of teams should legitimize his status as a 2nd line C (albeit not an ideal one, but one nonetheless). He didn't look too bad on the wing with Spezza and Tavares, and that may ultimately be where he finds success. At the end of the day, you have an undersized player with average skating, sub par defensive awareness, above average offensive awareness, average shot and high end puck skills. For the most part, an average NHLer, which I completely understand doesn't excite the HF community. But to cast him off as worthless (which so many seem to do) seems odd to me. We get it, your team has unreal depth at centre, so much so that a stud young gun like Seguin is forced to play wing. Our team isn't as fortunate, but as I posted before I am one of a number of Oiler fans fine with giving Gagner another season, mainly because I think we still haven't seen his best hockey. At the same time, if an opportunity to acquire someone better presented itself, we'd be foolish not to.

Also, you seem to have him pegged as a 40 pt player. His career ppg average is .6, which pro-rated over an 82 game season is 49 pts. Keeping in mind these numbers were accumulated between the ages of 18-22, at times playing on the 3rd and 4th lines with questionable line mates, is it really a stretch to think a guy who is still yet to enter his prime and now has a better supporting cast might put up 55+ pts?

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12-31-2012, 04:32 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Did you not imply the Oil will have to settle for "scraps" as return in a Gagner trade because the Bruins did so with Hamill, citing them as comparables based on size, draft status and player type. Except you may have overlooked the fact that Gagner made the NHL as an 18yr old and never looked back (221pts in 366 games), whereas Hamill has never once shown the ability to be an every day NHLer (4 pts in 20 career games). You don't find your suggestion a bit hyperbolic?

It's already been pointed out that there are very few teams that he would be a 2nd line centre on, but the fact that he would be a 2nd line C on a handful of teams should legitimize his status as a 2nd line C (albeit not an ideal one, but one nonetheless). He didn't look too bad on the wing with Spezza and Tavares, and that may ultimately be where he finds success. At the end of the day, you have an undersized player with average skating, sub par defensive awareness, above average offensive awareness, average shot and high end puck skills. For the most part, an average NHLer, which I completely understand doesn't excite the HF community. But to cast him off as worthless (which so many seem to do) seems odd to me. We get it, your team has unreal depth at centre, so much so that a stud young gun like Seguin is forced to play wing. Our team isn't as fortunate, but as I posted before I am one of a number of Oiler fans fine with giving Gagner another season, mainly because I think we still haven't seen his best hockey. At the same time, if an opportunity to acquire someone better presented itself, we'd be foolish not to.

Also, you seem to have him pegged as a 40 pt player. His career ppg average is .6, which pro-rated over an 82 game season is 49 pts. Keeping in mind these numbers were accumulated between the ages of 18-22, at times playing on the 3rd and 4th lines with questionable line mates, is it really a stretch to think a guy who is still yet to enter his prime and now has a better supporting cast might put up 55+ pts?
Great post. Unfortunately, so often on HF, logic based posts are ignored. I hope this one is not.

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01-01-2013, 06:13 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Did you not imply the Oil will have to settle for "scraps" as return in a Gagner trade because the Bruins did so with Hamill, citing them as comparables based on size, draft status and player type. Except you may have overlooked the fact that Gagner made the NHL as an 18yr old and never looked back (221pts in 366 games), whereas Hamill has never once shown the ability to be an every day NHLer (4 pts in 20 career games). You don't find your suggestion a bit hyperbolic?

It's already been pointed out that there are very few teams that he would be a 2nd line centre on, but the fact that he would be a 2nd line C on a handful of teams should legitimize his status as a 2nd line C (albeit not an ideal one, but one nonetheless). He didn't look too bad on the wing with Spezza and Tavares, and that may ultimately be where he finds success. At the end of the day, you have an undersized player with average skating, sub par defensive awareness, above average offensive awareness, average shot and high end puck skills. For the most part, an average NHLer, which I completely understand doesn't excite the HF community. But to cast him off as worthless (which so many seem to do) seems odd to me. We get it, your team has unreal depth at centre, so much so that a stud young gun like Seguin is forced to play wing. Our team isn't as fortunate, but as I posted before I am one of a number of Oiler fans fine with giving Gagner another season, mainly because I think we still haven't seen his best hockey. At the same time, if an opportunity to acquire someone better presented itself, we'd be foolish not to.

Also, you seem to have him pegged as a 40 pt player. His career ppg average is .6, which pro-rated over an 82 game season is 49 pts. Keeping in mind these numbers were accumulated between the ages of 18-22, at times playing on the 3rd and 4th lines with questionable line mates, is it really a stretch to think a guy who is still yet to enter his prime and now has a better supporting cast might put up 55+ pts?
There is something a few people are failing to realize in this thread. Many people view the Oilers having Gagner as the 2nd line center as one of the reasons why the team has been the worst team in hockey for the past few years. He isn't going to have a big value.

He isn't good enough to play in the top 6 on a contender and he isn't good enough defensively to play in the bottom 6 if that is what teams expect those players to be.

Now, maybe you are right and he would be better on the wing but not too many fans are going to want to find out if it means he is on their team.

I was under the impression that Gagner played with some of the Oilers best players last year, I am unsure about how much who his linemates were or how much ice time he gets have an effect on his stats, but on most teams he would not be playing with a guy like Eberle or get more ice time than guys like Tyler Seguin or Milan Lucic and that really leads me to believe that his numbers would go down on almost every other team in the league.

There is not much for fans of other teams to like about Gagner, 40+ points is not anything to get excited about for your 2nd line center. It wouldn't be bad if he was a defensive wizard, but he's not.

I'm not saying he is entirely useless, I am saying that he is not a desireable player from a fans perspective. You just can't expect fans to want to trade for Gagner.

Maybe my perception is off, I don't watch the Oilers as much as I would like so I will let you guys make that judgement, but to me Gagner seems like a mostly if not all offense type of guy, he just happens to be the lowest scoring guy like that in the entire league. He isn't useful for much else. Is that at all accurate?

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01-01-2013, 09:40 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
There is something a few people are failing to realize in this thread. Many people view the Oilers having Gagner as the 2nd line center as one of the reasons why the team has been the worst team in hockey for the past few years. He isn't going to have a big value.

He isn't good enough to play in the top 6 on a contender and he isn't good enough defensively to play in the bottom 6 if that is what teams expect those players to be.

Now, maybe you are right and he would be better on the wing but not too many fans are going to want to find out if it means he is on their team.
I thought Oiler fans said Gagner had been tried on the wing and didn't play well.

I think the problem is that a lot of teams have 40+ pt centers already or top prospects, who's upside is higher then 40+, so their fans aren't interested in giving up anything significant for Gagner.

Meanwhile, Oiler fans see his high draft position, his still young age and say he'll build off his 45 or so pts a season.

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01-01-2013, 09:56 AM
  #111
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There is something a few people are failing to realize in this thread. Many people view the Oilers having Gagner as the 2nd line center as one of the reasons why the team has been the worst team in hockey for the past few years. He isn't going to have a big value.

He isn't good enough to play in the top 6 on a contender and he isn't good enough defensively to play in the bottom 6 if that is what teams expect those players to be.

Now, maybe you are right and he would be better on the wing but not too many fans are going to want to find out if it means he is on their team.

I was under the impression that Gagner played with some of the Oilers best players last year, I am unsure about how much who his linemates were or how much ice time he gets have an effect on his stats, but on most teams he would not be playing with a guy like Eberle or get more ice time than guys like Tyler Seguin or Milan Lucic and that really leads me to believe that his numbers would go down on almost every other team in the league.

There is not much for fans of other teams to like about Gagner, 40+ points is not anything to get excited about for your 2nd line center. It wouldn't be bad if he was a defensive wizard, but he's not.

I'm not saying he is entirely useless, I am saying that he is not a desireable player from a fans perspective. You just can't expect fans to want to trade for Gagner.

Maybe my perception is off, I don't watch the Oilers as much as I would like so I will let you guys make that judgement, but to me Gagner seems like a mostly if not all offense type of guy, he just happens to be the lowest scoring guy like that in the entire league. He isn't useful for much else. Is that at all accurate?
Couldn't have said it better myself, great post.

Most teams goal is to make the playoffs and win a Stanley Cup. You aren't doing that with Sam Gagner as your 2nd line center, hence why Oiler fans are constantly offering him up in proposals. Nobody really wants him however, and thus the Oilers will either keep him, or trade him away for a minor asset.


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01-01-2013, 11:00 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
There is something a few people are failing to realize in this thread. Many people view the Oilers having Gagner as the 2nd line center as one of the reasons why the team has been the worst team in hockey for the past few years. He isn't going to have a big value.

He isn't good enough to play in the top 6 on a contender and he isn't good enough defensively to play in the bottom 6 if that is what teams expect those players to be.

Now, maybe you are right and he would be better on the wing but not too many fans are going to want to find out if it means he is on their team.

I was under the impression that Gagner played with some of the Oilers best players last year, I am unsure about how much who his linemates were or how much ice time he gets have an effect on his stats, but on most teams he would not be playing with a guy like Eberle or get more ice time than guys like Tyler Seguin or Milan Lucic and that really leads me to believe that his numbers would go down on almost every other team in the league.

There is not much for fans of other teams to like about Gagner, 40+ points is not anything to get excited about for your 2nd line center. It wouldn't be bad if he was a defensive wizard, but he's not.

I'm not saying he is entirely useless, I am saying that he is not a desireable player from a fans perspective. You just can't expect fans to want to trade for Gagner.

Maybe my perception is off, I don't watch the Oilers as much as I would like so I will let you guys make that judgement, but to me Gagner seems like a mostly if not all offense type of guy, he just happens to be the lowest scoring guy like that in the entire league. He isn't useful for much else. Is that at all accurate?
I think we're both on the same page, I can't really disagree with anything you posted. This is why I realize his trade value isn't substantial and that our best bet is holding onto him, hoping he takes the next step we've been waiting a couple seasons for. This is where we may not see eye to eye, is whether Gagner can still develop his game. So many people want to tag him as a career 40ish pt guy with poor D because for 5 seasons this is what he has been. What people don't want to acknowledge is that this was done from age 18-22. I personally think his game can develop. At the same time, I can also understand why people look at 5 seasons as a large enough body of work to pigeonhole a player, regardless of age. But nearly every team has a prospect that is close to that age that hasn't established a full time NHL career. Colbourne in TOR, McRae in STL, Nyqvist in DET, Loktionov in LA just to name a few, are all 22-23, none have established themselves as every day NHLers. Yet all remain in the top 5 of their team's respective system based on the potential that they develop the parts of their game that hinder them from becoming everyday NHLers. Why does that same potential not apply to Gagner? We saw Giroux go from great player to superstar from age 23-24. Is it inconceivable to think Gagner could go from below average 2nd line C to above average 2nd line C if he improved his skating and defensive reads while putting up another 5-10 pts?

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01-01-2013, 11:32 AM
  #113
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I think if you took Gagner off the Oilers and put him in a positive scenario, perhaps on a team where he could play a third line role, he would be more consistant.

That being said what would another team trade for a player that should be on most teams third line?

Perhaps a decent prospect with size or a 2nd round pick.

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01-01-2013, 11:45 AM
  #114
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I think if you took Gagner off the Oilers and put him in a positive scenario, perhaps on a team where he could play a third line role, he would be more consistant.

That being said what would another team trade for a player that should be on most teams third line?

Perhaps a decent prospect with size or a 2nd round pick.
Edmonton's not going to trade him, especially with the way the team is lining up.

If we have a season (fingers crossed) Gagner will play on the second line, with Hemsky on the right, and Yakupov on the left. He'll also be playing against 2nd pairing defenders, as most teams will try and shut down the Hall-Hopkins-Eberle line.

Sounds like a pretty positive scenario for him.

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01-01-2013, 11:56 AM
  #115
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Edmonton's not going to trade him, especially with the way the team is lining up.

If we have a season (fingers crossed) Gagner will play on the second line, with Hemsky on the right, and Yakupov on the left. He'll also be playing against 2nd pairing defenders, as most teams will try and shut down the Hall-Hopkins-Eberle line.

Sounds like a pretty positive scenario for him.
It seems odd to me that everyone seems to think Gagner has peaked. If he is played on that line this year, I would expect him to be on 50 - 60 point pace (pro rated per games played obviously).

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01-01-2013, 11:59 AM
  #116
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Luongo.

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01-01-2013, 12:18 PM
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The Jets are developing a lot of depth on defence but are still short a top-6 forward. Postma and Redmond are ready to move up from the farm and there is no room for them. Any interest from Edmonton in trading a package, including Gagner, for a Wpg package including a defenceman?

PS-Assume Enstrom, Bogosian and Trouba are not available

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01-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #118
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It seems odd to me that everyone seems to think Gagner has peaked. If he is played on that line this year, I would expect him to be on 50 - 60 point pace (pro rated per games played obviously).
That line, combined with the fact that he'll likely be on the second unit powerplay with Hemsky, and he could be a prolific point producer. I wouldn't be shocked to see him with a pro-rated 55 points, which would put him in the top 75 in scoring. A healthy Hemsky and Yakupov on the wing? Will be fun to watch, if they can get a deal done.

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01-01-2013, 12:59 PM
  #119
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It seems odd to me that everyone seems to think Gagner has peaked. If he is played on that line this year, I would expect him to be on 50 - 60 point pace (pro rated per games played obviously).
50 to 60 points?? Based on what exactly? You just pluck numbers from thin air. Gagner has been in the league 5years,, he hasn't progressed as expected. Now magically, he going to jump up 20 points because Hemsky is suddenly going to stay healthy,, and a rookie Yakupov will be skating on his LW?

Well if that's the case, I would "expect" Brad Marchand to score 40 goals this year.he hasn't peaked yet.

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01-01-2013, 01:01 PM
  #120
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That line, combined with the fact that he'll likely be on the second unit powerplay with Hemsky, and he could be a prolific point producer. I wouldn't be shocked to see him with a pro-rated 55 points, which would put him in the top 75 in scoring. A healthy Hemsky and Yakupov on the wing? Will be fun to watch, if they can get a deal done.
His situation will not have had changed. He will once again be the Oilers #2 center,, he will once again see PP time. Nothing new here.

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01-01-2013, 01:05 PM
  #121
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That line, combined with the fact that he'll likely be on the second unit powerplay with Hemsky, and he could be a prolific point producer. I wouldn't be shocked to see him with a pro-rated 55 points, which would put him in the top 75 in scoring. A healthy Hemsky and Yakupov on the wing? Will be fun to watch, if they can get a deal done.
This really hinges on whether Yak or Hemmer can play LW. I'd rather have 3 balanced scoring lines, kinda like how the Devils rolled last year (IIRC their 3rd line was Sykora-Elias-Zubrus).

Hall-Gagner-Eberle (was the unit intact for Sam's 8pt night)

Jones-RNH-Yak (Jonesy provides grit and puck retrieval along the boards, Yak needs a pure setup man which he gets in RNH)

Smyth-Horc-Hemmer (once upon a time was a first line on a cup finalist, should be comparable to the Jersey group)

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01-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #122
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50 to 60 points?? Based on what exactly? You just pluck numbers from thin air. Gagner has been in the league 5years,, he hasn't progressed as expected. Now magically, he going to jump up 20 points because Hemsky is suddenly going to stay healthy,, and a rookie Yakupov will be skating on his LW?

Well if that's the case, I would "expect" Brad Marchand to score 40 goals this year.he hasn't peaked yet.
How about based on the fact he put up 49pts as an 18yr old playing with stone hands Cogliano and Mr. passionate Rowbear Nilsson. But yes, you're right, it will take magic for him to break the 50pt plateau. Past track records completely define the future. That's why if Gagner were to play with Crosby and Malkin for a full season, they'd both hit 110 pts and he'd come in at 49pts.... Unless Bylsma is a wizard.

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01-01-2013, 01:13 PM
  #123
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I thought Oiler fans said Gagner had been tried on the wing and didn't play well.

I think the problem is that a lot of teams have 40+ pt centers already or top prospects, who's upside is higher then 40+, so their fans aren't interested in giving up anything significant for Gagner.

Meanwhile, Oiler fans see his high draft position, his still young age and say he'll build off his 45 or so pts a season.
No. Oiler fans watch him play and say he'll build off his success so far. People that don't just look at stats can clearly see an improved player. We were all extremely excited prior to his injury in training camp, and after he recovered from his injury and got up to speed, he had around 45 points in 60 games

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01-01-2013, 01:16 PM
  #124
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I think if you took Gagner off the Oilers and put him in a positive scenario, perhaps on a team where he could play a third line role, he would be more consistant.

That being said what would another team trade for a player that should be on most teams third line?

Perhaps a decent prospect with size or a 2nd round pick.
I am trying to check and see where Gagner ended up in points compared to all centremen in the NHL but my computer wont allow it. I am sure that there are not 60 better centremen in the NHL. There are about 38 centremen with more points than Gagner and that is him playing 75 games and a lot of the season playing on the 3rd and 4th line. EDM is going to keep him as a legit 2C watch how he does this year. Also during the deadline it was rumoured that there was high demand for Gagner but EDM did not want to part with him.

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01-01-2013, 02:09 PM
  #125
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No. Oiler fans watch him play and say he'll build off his success so far. People that don't just look at stats can clearly see an improved player. We were all extremely excited prior to his injury in training camp, and after he recovered from his injury and got up to speed, he had around 45 points in 60 games

Opposing fans look at Josh Bailey's 30 pts a yr and don't see that he's very solid defensively and on the pk.


Bailey moved up from the 3rd line, playing the last month or so on the 2nd line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo. They formed a very dangerous line for those weeks, with Bailey scoring 17 pts in 19 games. He had only 32 for the total season.

Does that mean fans should ignore Bailey's actual final stats and think 'oh, if he'd had all season on a line with Frans Nielsen and Kyle Okposo, he'd have had 65 pts?

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