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Couturier + Coburn for Yakupov + Teubert

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Old
12-31-2012, 05:13 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
This post doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

I was simply noting that referring to Couturier as an "elite 2C" is certainly no more absurd than calling Yakupov a top-line scoring winger.

Couturier obviously needs to develop a much more refined and consistent offensive game to reach 2C (let alone elite 2C) status, but his defensive skills are already well on the way there. The projection isn't much a stretch to me, and I agree with others who have said that, if we are talking about his ceiling, it is 1C rather than 2C.



While, I don't expect he will reach 1C status either, his production in juniors certainly demonstrates that it isn't a complete reach. I think most Flyers fans ultimately hope / expect him to be something of a 1B / 2A type--a 60 point center with a very strong two-way game.
60 point 2 way center is Couturiers absolute cellar.. Most flyers fans would not be happy with that. I see Sean as a 70-75 Selke Winner. His Ceiling/Hope is at a PPG, certainly not 60 points.

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12-31-2012, 05:22 PM
  #102
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60 point 2 way center is Couturiers absolute cellar.. Most flyers fans would not be happy with that. I see Sean as a 70-75 Selke Winner. His Ceiling/Hope is at a PPG, certainly not 60 points.
Eh, I had originally typed "60+ point" center, and then I remembered the wise posters who not that only about 50 players each year scored over 60 points.

I don't think 60 points is his floor--that's too generous, but you might be right, it might be a bit too conservative for his ceiling. 70-75 is probably right on that count.

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12-31-2012, 05:37 PM
  #103
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Not a fan of either team, but it seems to me the Flyers get fleeced in this deal.

Why would anyone want Colten Teubert? No future in the NHL. One of the poorer first round picks in recent memory.

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12-31-2012, 05:51 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
60 point 2 way center is Couturiers absolute cellar.. Most flyers fans would not be happy with that. I see Sean as a 70-75 Selke Winner. His Ceiling/Hope is at a PPG, certainly not 60 points.
There aren't many 60 point centers every season. Last year, there were only 20. I don't think that is his absolute cellar by any means. He could very well end up as a 40-50 point player, who is a good defensive player. Basically, you are saying that you think Coutourier will be a top ten center in terms of offense, and being a Selke contender. 3 centers last year were over a ppg, and two others were one point away, so you're saying his ceiling is a top 5 center in the league? I don't see that much skill in his game at all. Flyers fans should be happy with him ending up a 50 point center, especially if he does end up a Selke contender as well.

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12-31-2012, 06:09 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
There aren't many 60 point centers every season. Last year, there were only 20. I don't think that is his absolute cellar by any means. He could very well end up as a 40-50 point player, who is a good defensive player. Basically, you are saying that you think Coutourier will be a top ten center in terms of offense, and being a Selke contender. 3 centers last year were over a ppg, and two others were one point away, so you're saying his ceiling is a top 5 center in the league? I don't see that much skill in his game at all. Flyers fans should be happy with him ending up a 50 point center, especially if he does end up a Selke contender as well.
That's sort of what I was getting at.

I do think that, in terms of absolute ceiling, 60-70 points is probably not unreasonable, but that shouldn't be his projection.

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12-31-2012, 06:38 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
That's sort of what I was getting at.

I do think that, in terms of absolute ceiling, 60-70 points is probably not unreasonable, but that shouldn't be his projection.
Exactly. He could just as easily become Martin Hanzal in my opinion (30 + point center with near flawless defensive game). And that's not really an insult, as Hanzal is a player that any team would love to have. He was drafted in the first round though, but his offense never came in fully as expected. Its a bit ridiculous to be claiming that Coutourier will be relatively the same as, say Pavel Datsyuk, at this point.

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12-31-2012, 09:33 PM
  #107
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While yakupov is an exciting player, this trade makes the flyers a worse team. Pass.

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01-01-2013, 07:39 AM
  #108
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I don't see the offense in Coutourier to make him a legitimate number one.
Based off of last year?

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01-01-2013, 07:55 AM
  #109
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Yak would be happy winning the cup while scoring at a career low in points. He just wants to win. He is not most Russians.
Funny, looked like he spent most of the Canada/Russia game cherry picking in the neutral zone and is basically a no-show in the tournament other than against bottom feeders.

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01-01-2013, 08:49 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Exactly. He could just as easily become Martin Hanzal in my opinion (30 + point center with near flawless defensive game). And that's not really an insult, as Hanzal is a player that any team would love to have. He was drafted in the first round though, but his offense never came in fully as expected. Its a bit ridiculous to be claiming that Coutourier will be relatively the same as, say Pavel Datsyuk, at this point.
Sean Couturier had 27points last season. He was a rookie. Playing fourth line minutes on ES, absolutely no PP time and taxed with not only handling the oppositions best on a lot of occasions but also a noticeable amount of PK time. His linemates were Zac Rinaldo, Maxime Talbot or Jody Shelley. I think it's more outlandish to think he will stay at 30points or a little more than it is to say that his totals will average around 60.
27points is actually not bad as a rookie. Mike Richards had 34 in his rookie year while playing in a more prominent role. Couturier also was pretty dominant in his days in junior.

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01-01-2013, 09:39 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CanuckistanFlyerfan View Post
Funny, looked like he spent most of the Canada/Russia game cherry picking in the neutral zone and is basically a no-show in the tournament other than against bottom feeders.
That's an over exaggeration. He has showed just as good as any Russian in this tourney and has been trying to play his game within their system. You guys are allowed to think what you want I am only trying to help you understand his attitude towards the game.

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01-01-2013, 12:12 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Sean Couturier had 27points last season. He was a rookie. Playing fourth line minutes on ES, absolutely no PP time and taxed with not only handling the oppositions best on a lot of occasions but also a noticeable amount of PK time. His linemates were Zac Rinaldo, Maxime Talbot or Jody Shelley. I think it's more outlandish to think he will stay at 30points or a little more than it is to say that his totals will average around 60.
27points is actually not bad as a rookie. Mike Richards had 34 in his rookie year while playing in a more prominent role. Couturier also was pretty dominant in his days in junior.
I don't. Again, HF seems to think 60 point centers grow on trees. 27 points isn't bad for a rookie, I agree, but more 27 point rookies end up as 30-40 point players than 60 point players.

As a counter argument, I once again bring up Martin Hanzal. First round pick, scorer in junior, jumped directly to the NHL, scored 35 points as a rookie, and despite the fact that he may be the best shut down center in the game, his offense has never come around, and is a guy who never scored 40 points yet (although he has been on pace) And he's probably the most valuable forward on that team. There's a dangerous assumption on these boards that every good rookie will become a superstar. I don't see the offense in Coutourier developing to where he becomes that 60 point player so many others seem to see.

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01-01-2013, 01:04 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't. Again, HF seems to think 60 point centers grow on trees. 27 points isn't bad for a rookie, I agree, but more 27 point rookies end up as 30-40 point players than 60 point players.

As a counter argument, I once again bring up Martin Hanzal. First round pick, scorer in junior, jumped directly to the NHL, scored 35 points as a rookie, and despite the fact that he may be the best shut down center in the game, his offense has never come around, and is a guy who never scored 40 points yet (although he has been on pace) And he's probably the most valuable forward on that team. There's a dangerous assumption on these boards that every good rookie will become a superstar. I don't see the offense in Coutourier developing to where he becomes that 60 point player so many others seem to see.
I agree with the jest of what your saying but I think your selling him short. IMO he has a good chance to be a 60 point Selke caliber center. On the other hand, those saying that that would be a disappointment are setting themselves up to be disappointed. That's an incredibly valuable and great player in the current day NHL. There were only 9 players with with 80 or more points last year and 21 players with 70 or more points last year. Being a PPG player in the current day NHL is pretty difficult. Even players like Toews and Kopitar have never truly been a PPG player (even though they've both come close).

Also agree that everyone expects their young players/top prospects to turn into superstars. Seguin, RNH, Huberdeau, Hall, Granlund, Couturier, Landeskog, Yakupov, etc. I'm sure some of them will, but not all of them are going to turn into elite players and not all of them are going to progress as neatly as some assume.


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01-01-2013, 02:32 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't. Again, HF seems to think 60 point centers grow on trees. 27 points isn't bad for a rookie, I agree, but more 27 point rookies end up as 30-40 point players than 60 point players.

As a counter argument, I once again bring up Martin Hanzal. First round pick, scorer in junior, jumped directly to the NHL, scored 35 points as a rookie, and despite the fact that he may be the best shut down center in the game, his offense has never come around, and is a guy who never scored 40 points yet (although he has been on pace) And he's probably the most valuable forward on that team. There's a dangerous assumption on these boards that every good rookie will become a superstar. I don't see the offense in Coutourier developing to where he becomes that 60 point player so many others seem to see.
Hanzal never put up nearly the same numbers (at the same age) in juniors as Couturier. Couturier was the highest producing player in his draft class, right? That doesn't mean he's destined for NHL stardom, but it shouldn't be simply dismissed either.

Jordan Staal makes sense as a "safe" projection for Couturier, though he never showed Couturier's production as a junior either. At the time of the draft, I remember some likening him to a hybrid of Eric and Jordan. I still think that makes some sense.

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01-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Hanzal never put up nearly the same numbers (at the same age) in juniors as Couturier. Couturier was the highest producing player in his draft class, right? That doesn't mean he's destined for NHL stardom, but it shouldn't be simply dismissed either.

Jordan Staal makes sense as a "safe" projection for Couturier, though he never showed Couturier's production as a junior either. At the time of the draft, I remember some likening him to a hybrid of Eric and Jordan. I still think that makes some sense.
He also dropped in the draft from a potential number one to eight because some scouts were questioning his upside, meaning, how much he can improve as a player. That shouldn't be dismissed either.

The only point I am trying to make, is that assuming that Coutourier's cellar is a 60 point player is pretty ridiculous. He could get there, he could be better, but he might not get close either. He's never been viewed as a sure fire superstar, but a lot of people on HF think he is destined to be one based on a rookie year where he scored 25+ points.

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01-01-2013, 03:48 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't. Again, HF seems to think 60 point centers grow on trees. 27 points isn't bad for a rookie, I agree, but more 27 point rookies end up as 30-40 point players than 60 point players.

As a counter argument, I once again bring up Martin Hanzal. First round pick, scorer in junior, jumped directly to the NHL, scored 35 points as a rookie, and despite the fact that he may be the best shut down center in the game, his offense has never come around, and is a guy who never scored 40 points yet (although he has been on pace) And he's probably the most valuable forward on that team. There's a dangerous assumption on these boards that every good rookie will become a superstar. I don't see the offense in Coutourier developing to where he becomes that 60 point player so many others seem to see.
Couple of things wrong here:
Martin Hanzal was a first round draft pick yes. But the 2005 draft was a relatively weak one. Also Hanzal was never projected as a top-end prospect. He never had the same offensive pedigree as Sean Couturier, who, as someone else mentioned, was the most productive offensive player of his draft.
Martin Hanzal also didn't jump directly into the NHL. He was selected in 2005. Played in the USHL and in the Czech league in 2005/06 and in the WHL in 06/07. He didn't make his debut until he was 20 years old. He put up his WHL numbers also as a 19 and 20 year old while Sean Couturier got 96points in 68games and a +62 rating as a 17 and 18 year old. I don't exactly know how the WHL and QMHL stack up against each other in terms of playing style, but it seems like Couturier was the clearly more significant player already at the junior level.
Also, concerning your last post: Sean Couturier fought mono in his draft-year. That was the main reason he slipped.

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01-01-2013, 04:49 PM
  #117
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He also dropped in the draft from a potential number one to eight because some scouts were questioning his upside, meaning, how much he can improve as a player. That shouldn't be dismissed either.

The only point I am trying to make, is that assuming that Coutourier's cellar is a 60 point player is pretty ridiculous. He could get there, he could be better, but he might not get close either. He's never been viewed as a sure fire superstar, but a lot of people on HF think he is destined to be one based on a rookie year where he scored 25+ points.
Couturier dropped mainly cause he had mono and he still had the highest pt production in his draft class, given he was in an offensive league. Only thing anyone has ever questioned, that I know of, was his skating. His acceleration is what he's been trying to improve, people actually say he has deceptive speed, meaning as soon as he gets going he's not slow.

Just my opinion but I don't see how Couts turns into a less then 50 pt forward on the flyers knowing what I do about him between his time in juniors and his first two seasons of pro hockey.

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01-01-2013, 07:19 PM
  #118
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Couturier dropped mainly cause he had mono and he still had the highest pt production in his draft class, given he was in an offensive league. Only thing anyone has ever questioned, that I know of, was his skating. His acceleration is what he's been trying to improve, people actually say he has deceptive speed, meaning as soon as he gets going he's not slow.

Just my opinion but I don't see how Couts turns into a less then 50 pt forward on the flyers knowing what I do about him between his time in juniors and his first two seasons of pro hockey.
But you can't count on that, and that is my entire point. He could also become a 30 - 40 point center.

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01-01-2013, 10:45 PM
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But you can't count on that, and that is my entire point. He could also become a 30 - 40 point center.
Sure but Yak could also turn into a perennial 20 goal scorer and nothing more. All things we've seen to date suggest otherwise for both IMO but it could happen I guess. I think most flyers fans are arguing that while it's possible for Couturier to top out at a 30-40 pt player that it's unlikely based on what he's accomplished and what we've seen to date. Again sure it could happen but that is the case with every prospect. Nothing with Couturier's play or past suggest he is more likely to not reach his ceiling then someone like Yakupov.

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01-01-2013, 10:46 PM
  #120
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Sure but Yak could also turn into a perennial 20 goal scorer and nothing more. All things we've seen to date suggest otherwise for both IMO but it could happen I guess. I think most flyers fans are arguing that while it's possible for Couturier to top out at a 30-40 pt player that it's unlikely based on what he's accomplished and what we've seen to date. Again sure it could happen but that is the case with every prospect. Nothing with Couturier's play or past suggest he is more likely to not reach his ceiling then someone like Yakupov.
I think Yakupov has shown that he is more likely to be a superstar than Coutourier, and that includes a year in the NHL for that latter and only KHL and junior experience for the former.

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01-01-2013, 11:04 PM
  #121
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This. Exactly

Couturier > Yakupov

AINEC
Good joke!!!

Please watch some of Couts games this year in the AHL, and tell me what his value is. This guy will eventually top off as the 2nd/3rd line defensive C. Is not worth a potential 1st line 35-40 goal scorer.

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01-01-2013, 11:26 PM
  #122
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Good joke!!!

Please watch some of Couts games this year in the AHL, and tell me what his value is. This guy will eventually top off as the 2nd/3rd line defensive C. Is not worth a potential 1st line 35-40 goal scorer.
He's 17th in the AHL in points among U-24 players. He's playing on one of the lowest scoring teams in the entire league (only 5 teams have lower goal totals).

They lack any NHL talent forwards other than Schenn and Couturier. If it wasn't for those 2 and the goalie, they would arguably be the worst team in the league.

The two of them have accounted for some absurd percentage of the teams points so far this year.

I like how you said he'll "top off" as a 2nd or 3rd line defensive C.

Quite a few people disagree with you.

Former NHL scout Grant Sonier:

"Playing meaningful minutes in 2011-12 and accepting and understanding the defensive side of the game is only going to work in his favor. With size, skill and elite hockey sense, Couturier will eventually start producing numbers on par with the elite players in the league."

Corey Pronman, NHL Prospects writer for hockeyprospectus.com:

"This time last summer, I considered Couturier and Schenn 1A and 1B prospects, but this year I've flipped the A and the B. Couturier had the more successful season, logging unusually tough defensive minutes for his age. He's not just a checker, however, as he has a ton of offensive potential as well."

His projection of Couturier in the Summer of 2011 for the Flyers top 10 prospect list:

"Projection: An above-average first line center who safely projects as a below-average first line center."

Your own chief scout Stu MacGregor on Couturier:

"Projection: "I think he could be a first-line centre."

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01-01-2013, 11:40 PM
  #123
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He's 17th in the AHL in points among U-24 players. He's playing on one of the lowest scoring teams in the entire league (only 5 teams have lower goal totals).

They lack any NHL talent forwards other than Schenn and Couturier. If it wasn't for those 2 and the goalie, they would arguably be the worst team in the league.

The two of them have accounted for some absurd percentage of the teams points so far this year.

I like how you said he'll "top off" as a 2nd or 3rd line defensive C.

Quite a few people disagree with you.

Former NHL scout Grant Sonier:

"Playing meaningful minutes in 2011-12 and accepting and understanding the defensive side of the game is only going to work in his favor. With size, skill and elite hockey sense, Couturier will eventually start producing numbers on par with the elite players in the league."

Corey Pronman, NHL Prospects writer for hockeyprospectus.com:

"This time last summer, I considered Couturier and Schenn 1A and 1B prospects, but this year I've flipped the A and the B. Couturier had the more successful season, logging unusually tough defensive minutes for his age. He's not just a checker, however, as he has a ton of offensive potential as well."

His projection of Couturier in the Summer of 2011 for the Flyers top 10 prospect list:

"Projection: An above-average first line center who safely projects as a below-average first line center."

Your own chief scout Stu MacGregor on Couturier:

"Projection: "I think he could be a first-line centre."
Listen, it's not that I'm not a fan of Couts, but to say that Couts is worth more than Yak AINEC is just asinine.

There are so many quotes that say that Yak should consistently score 40+ goals in the NHL. He was the consensus #1 draft pick. Please don't tell me he's not worth Couts.

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01-01-2013, 11:59 PM
  #124
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scratch Teubert and Coburn, add Simmonds.

Giroux-Yakupov will be nasty.

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01-02-2013, 12:01 AM
  #125
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scratch Teubert and Coburn, add Simmonds.

Giroux-Yakupov will be nasty.
Yakupov for Coutourier and Simmonds? Philly doesn't do it, maybe a year from now if Yak scores like he should. Edmonton probably can't say no though.

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