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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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01-01-2013, 09:19 AM
  #551
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Hard linking player compensation to revenue is artificial and ought to be eliminated. Player compensation should be negotiated between the owner/GM and the player without hard linkage, the same way you or I might negotiate our wages with our employers. If I don't like what I'm offered, I move on. Same with a player negotiating his contract; if he doesn't like it he moves on.
I'm a public school teacher, I don't negotiate directly with the city for my wages. One of the best parts about it is the transparency. Everyone knows what everyone makes. The NHL right now can claim whatever expenses they want without opening their books, except for the collectively bargained expenses. Wouldn't it be great to see what GM's across the league are making? Or support staff? Or all of it? Yet, all we get are the players salaries, so they come off as being the problem $ wise.

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01-01-2013, 09:44 AM
  #552
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[OTE=Ludwig Fell Down;56982261]That's good news, but I'm still confused.

Who is Scut Farkus in your analogy?[/QUOTE]

Don Fehr, he had yellow eyes, so help me god yellow eyes.

Steve Fehr! Don's crummy little toadie. Mean, rotten, his lips curled over his green teeth.

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01-01-2013, 09:46 AM
  #553
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The NHL owners did what I thought was impossible.

And this is not hyperbole, I did not think this was possible considering how much I disliked this guy.

The NHL owners have made me like Don Fehr. Jacobs converted a bunch of you to his side, so he is still winning so don't worry.

GIVE EM HELL DONNY!

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01-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Wouldn't it be great to see what GM's across the league are making? Or support staff? Or all of it? Yet, all we get are the players salaries, so they come off as being the problem $ wise.
Great? I guess. But completely unnecessary. I get that a certain amount of transparency in our lives is a good thing, but I just don't happen to think this is one of those situations.

I am going to avoid the teacher's union thing because I think it will rat hole.

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01-01-2013, 10:23 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
The NHL owners did what I thought was impossible.

And this is not hyperbole, I did not think this was possible considering how much I disliked this guy.

The NHL owners have made me like Don Fehr. Jacobs converted a bunch of you to his side, so he is still winning so don't worry.

GIVE EM HELL DONNY!
I hate em both. Employers take and Employees give. It's the real world. They can fight it all they want, and lose more, and delay things, but they will in the end lose. Welcome to the real world NHLPA. It's how the rest of us live.

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01-01-2013, 10:33 AM
  #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
I hate em both. Employers take and Employees give. It's the real world. They can fight it all they want, and lose more, and delay things, but they will in the end lose. Welcome to the real world NHLPA. It's how the rest of us live.
Dude: Read you PM lol

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01-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #557
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Great? I guess. But completely unnecessary. I get that a certain amount of transparency in our lives is a good thing, but I just don't happen to think this is one of those situations.

I am going to avoid the teacher's union thing because I think it will rat hole.
You don't think it would be a good thing to get a look at JJ's books? We know every in and out of Campbell's contract but have no clue what they're paying anyone in the coaching staff or anyone else the organization for that matter.

Thanks for avoiding the teacher union attack. We get beat up enough as it is.

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01-01-2013, 10:39 AM
  #558
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
I hate em both. Employers take and Employees give. It's the real world. They can fight it all they want, and lose more, and delay things, but they will in the end lose. Welcome to the real world NHLPA. It's how the rest of us live.
This. These sentiments echo mine exactly.

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01-01-2013, 10:42 AM
  #559
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
You don't think it would be a good thing to get a look at JJ's books? We know every in and out of Campbell's contract but have no clue what they're paying anyone in the coaching staff or anyone else the organization for that matter.

Thanks for avoiding the teacher union attack. We get beat up enough as it is.
The question I have is:
what right do we have to look into the private finances of a private individual? If he were running for office...hell yeah I wanna know....but he owns a sports team....we have no right nor need to know his private finances.

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01-01-2013, 10:43 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by The Special K View Post
The question I have is:
what right do we have to look into the private finances of a private individual? If he were running for office...hell yeah I wanna know....but he owns a sports team....we have no right nor need to know his private finances.
Not saying you are wrong, but do you feel this way when contract terms are announced for players?

Would you be happy if they were all kept secret?

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01-01-2013, 10:46 AM
  #561
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
You don't think it would be a good thing to get a look at JJ's books? We know every in and out of Campbell's contract but have no clue what they're paying anyone in the coaching staff or anyone else the organization for that matter.

Thanks for avoiding the teacher union attack. We get beat up enough as it is.
No the teacher unions should be applauded for by in large never actually striking or sicking out since they know the kids will suffer and that is who you are all there for. And none of you teachers earn enough for there to be any resentment towards whatever you negotiate for yourself (that doesn't go for admins or other high paid public sector employees in school systems though they earn too much by in large.)

If people like JJ had to completely open their books you can bet he'd go back to Buffalo and just sit on his millions/billions and maybe worry about concessions or if not just live off his dividends etc. Thats how it works unfortunately. He came somewhat close to selling the team in the mid-late 80s because his efforts to get an arena on his own terms seemed futile. The guy expects and gets control of as many of the variables as possible. Despite this though it looks like strategy wise he will blunder lockout 2 just like lockout 1 with the low cap and no roll backs since Marshy and Looch got big raises.

I don't think we have a right to know anything about the relationship to DNC, the Bruins, Aramak etc. His relationship with the MBTA and the City of Boston is different but corporations all insist on keeping things behind closed doors for a reason.

This will descend into politics if I start making arguments for corporations and big businesses (and I don't want to anyways since I don't really like them in general) but bottom line is that many will shut up shop if all their financial dealings were open to public scrutiny. NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL all keep plenty behind closed doors. You make also your comments with zero acknowledgement of how much money they fork out to put the show on the ice since they are very wealthy people and thus can't possibly lose money to you.

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01-01-2013, 10:46 AM
  #562
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Personally, the only reason I like to know player contract details is so I can play GM and see where we stand with the Cap. If coaches and front office and all that counted towards a cap, I'd be interested in that too.

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01-01-2013, 10:51 AM
  #563
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Not saying you are wrong, but do you feel this way when contract terms are announced for players?

Would you be happy if they were all kept secret?
Its in the players best interests. Public knowledge keeps stuff like Alan Eagleson from happening.

And player salary is as important an part of their overall value as their skating speed Lucic's popularity ebbs and flows with his production in relation to his pay. You think he'll be a cult hero if he ends a year on 19 goals while making 6 mil? People will burn him at the stake.

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01-01-2013, 10:51 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Not saying you are wrong, but do you feel this way when contract terms are announced for players?

Would you be happy if they were all kept secret?
I see your point but the two are not really comparable. If there were no salary cap, I would not care how much an individual player gets paid, but when you have a salary cap that limits how much your team can spend on the team that you pay to watch...I can understand why the fan would want to know. Knowing how much your team's owner earns does not affect that in any way...so no, I see no need to know how much JJ makes.....it would only piss me off.

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01-01-2013, 10:55 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by CharaTriedToEatMe View Post
Its in the players best interests. Public knowledge keeps stuff like Alan Eagleson from happening.

And player salary is as important an part of their overall value as their skating speed Lucic's popularity ebbs and flows with his production in relation to his pay. You think he'll be a cult hero if he ends a year on 19 goals while making 6 mil? People will burn him at the stake.
Oh, I agree about the Eagleson thing, even had the same thought as I typed it. I was just addressing his point that we have no right to know anyone's private finances. Seems you have to be consistent.

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Originally Posted by The Special K View Post
I see your point but the two are not really comparable. If there were no salary cap, I would not care how much an individual player gets paid, but when you have a salary cap that limits how much your team can spend on the team that you pay to watch...I can understand why the fan would want to know. Knowing how much your team's owner earns does not affect that in any way...so no, I see no need to know how much JJ makes.....it would only piss me off.
It certainly impacts fans when they are crying poor and having a lockout. Might not happen if we could see their books.

I just think you can't have it both ways.

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01-01-2013, 10:56 AM
  #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Not saying you are wrong, but do you feel this way when contract terms are announced for players?

Would you be happy if they were all kept secret?
Who announces them though? JJ has a long standing policy "Per club policy, financial terms of the deal will not be disclosed." And you will find that every time the team announces a signing.

More than enough times, the $$ comes from player agents who release numbers to the media. Very rarely, do they come from the teams.

So does that give us the right to want to know management/coaches/other staff's salaries?

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01-01-2013, 11:01 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Who announces them though? JJ has a long standing policy "Per club policy, financial terms of the deal will not be disclosed." And you will find that every time the team announces a signing.

More than enough times, the $$ comes from player agents who release numbers to the media. Very rarely, do they come from the teams.

So does that give us the right to want to know management/coaches/other staff's salaries?
whoop, there it is!

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01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
  #568
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Who announces them though? JJ has a long standing policy "Per club policy, financial terms of the deal will not be disclosed." And you will find that every time the team announces a signing.

More than enough times, the $$ comes from player agents who release numbers to the media. Very rarely, do they come from the teams.

So does that give us the right to want to know management/coaches/other staff's salaries?
I was addressing his rational for saying why we have no right to know JJ's finances. I didn't even say I disagreed with him, just his reasoning.

I also think professional sports owners overwhelmingly lie about their finances. US taxpayers have been falling for it for 30 years in the form of taxpayer funded stadiums and tax breaks. Considering they are allowed to run their leagues with special laws that no other industry gets, there is absolutely an argument for why they should have to open their books.

I might not agree with it, but I understand it.

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01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Who announces them though? JJ has a long standing policy "Per club policy, financial terms of the deal will not be disclosed." And you will find that every time the team announces a signing.

More than enough times, the $$ comes from player agents who release numbers to the media. Very rarely, do they come from the teams.

So does that give us the right to want to know management/coaches/other staff's salaries?
Transparancy is always a good thing, no?

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01-01-2013, 11:15 AM
  #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Transparancy is always a good thing, no?
Yes it is.

But who needs to know? In this case it's the NHL and the NHLPA that need to know and I would suggest that not every Tom, Dick and Harry need to know.

The NHLPA has the right to look at the NHL's books. The league and the Union have agreed on independent accountants and auditors as well as using their own.

I have yet to see anywhere that the NHLPA has disagreed with the NHL's accounting (or the independent accountants or their own). They have disagreed in what should be counted as HRR, projections etc., but not actual numbers or accounting.

Until then, I am satisfied that the NHLPA is satisfied and until they disagree on that, knowing the numbers changes nothing.

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01-01-2013, 11:21 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Yes it is.

But who needs to know? In this case it's the NHL and the NHLPA that need to know and I would suggest that not every Tom, Dick and Harry need to know.

The NHLPA has the right to look at the NHL's books. The league and the Union have agreed on independent accountants and auditors as well as using their own.

I have yet to see anywhere that the NHLPA has disagreed with the NHL's accounting (or the independent accountants or their own). They have disagreed in what should be counted as HRR, projections etc., but not actual numbers or accounting.

Until then, I am satisfied that the NHLPA is satisfied and until they disagree on that, knowing the numbers changes nothing.
Maybe it wouldn't change a thing, maybe it would foster a little trust between the fans and the league (certainly none of that at the moment) and that could change quite a bit.

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01-01-2013, 11:28 AM
  #572
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I have a feeling that if the Bruins announced they signed a new deal with Tuukka Rask, and no one leaked the deal, either in years or dollars or cap hit, that most people here would be apopleptic, regardless of how they feel about the fairness of anyone's finances being public knowledge.

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01-01-2013, 11:34 AM
  #573
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
I have a feeling that if the Bruins announced they signed a new deal with Tuukka Rask, and no one leaked the deal, either in years or dollars or cap hit, that most people here would be apopleptic, regardless of how they feel about the fairness of anyone's finances being public knowledge.
That's because it affects the cap.

Fans care about the terms of player deals because of the impact it has on the team, not because fans are nosy busy bodies that harbor ill will and resentment towards highly compensated athletes.

The comparison is bogus, IMO.

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01-01-2013, 11:37 AM
  #574
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That's because it affects the cap.

Fans care about the terms of player deals because of the impact it has on the team, not because fans are nosy busy bodies that harbor ill will and resentment towards highly compensated athletes.

The comparison is bogus, IMO.
I am pointing out the hypocrisy.

I know why fans care. Thanks for explaining it to me though.

Are you telling me it is bogus when the owners cry poor and have a lockout but we have no idea if they are telling the truth? It is bogus that that affects fans too?

And again, I don't think we should see them. I'd like to, but we have no right.

But that doesn't change the fact many here would become hypocritical immediately in that scenario.

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01-01-2013, 11:45 AM
  #575
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That's because it affects the cap.

Fans care about the terms of player deals because of the impact it has on the team, not because fans are nosy busy bodies that harbor ill will and resentment towards highly compensated athletes.

The comparison is bogus, IMO.
But dont the team's other expenses impact the team? The league is claiming that they have to change the cap because other expenses have risen so much since the last CBA. Well, why not let the fans see em? If the Bruins have to cut players because Phoenix's "expenses" are too great, wouldn't you want to know how the Coyotes are spending their money ?

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