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Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

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12-31-2012, 10:28 PM
  #326
sandysan
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
^^^^^ Perfect example of what I was referring to earlier >>>>>
Wait, all markets are equivalent in your we eyes? That Nashville and Columbus are equivalent to mtl and Toronto? If that is true, why can't they be self sufficient and why are they reliant on the largesse of traditional markets?

Who are you trying to convince that these are viable markets, me or you? Saying that Toronto and mtl are, and will be, better markets than Columbus and Nashville is not some anti-southern conspiracy, its a fact.

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12-31-2012, 10:32 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.
There was a Green Bay team before there was an NFL. While GB benefits from NFL TV money, they have sold out their stadium for about the last 50 years. They are expanding Lambeau Field to seat nearly 80,000. This is for a town of 102,000. I think that the Green Bay Packers have been propping up the NFL, not the other way around.

The Cowboys and Giants combined have 13 titles. The Packers have won 13. Why would two inferior franchises complain about Green Bay?

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12-31-2012, 10:37 PM
  #328
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[QUOTE=BradD;56875731][QUOTE=du5566;56875657]
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Do you have any other team to cut that isn't a contender? I am looking at the list and every other team is a contender or is growing profits. You could maybe cut Buffalo or St. Louis. I understand Minnesota is hockey country but the Wild are most certainly not.

This thread was talking about how many teams should be in the NHL. I said there should be 26. The other reasonable conclusion was 28.

We're not saying the NHL is going to do this or should, we're saying HOW MANY teams should be in the NHL.

I said there shouldn't be a Columbus, Dallas, Florida, Nashville, or Phoenix. I stick by that point. All markets are super weak for hockey or already have another team in the market (see Tampa). There is no need to have TWO hockey teams in Florida.

Carolina and Tampa Bay have built their own. I highly doubt that, even if a team like Florida won the Cup, fans would stick around.

Money wise it is better short term for the NHL, yes, but when these teams start tanking even more it's going to be a huge problem. Dallas has upside and so does Florida, but teams like Nashville and Columbus are ridding themselves of all viable players. They need to not be in the NHL.
So Shea Weber isn't a viable NHL player? And Pekka Rinne, maybe he should be playing in the ECHL? You are thrashing in the quicksand Brad!

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12-31-2012, 10:37 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by adsfan View Post
There was a Green Bay team before there was an NFL. While GB benefits from NFL TV money, they have sold out their stadium for about the last 50 years. They are expanding Lambeau Field to seat nearly 80,000. This is for a town of 102,000. I think that the Green Bay Packers have been propping up the NFL, not the other way around.

The Cowboys and Giants combined have 13 titles. The Packers have won 13. Why would two inferior franchises complain about Green Bay?
The Packers are a VERY small market team that wouldn't exist without the NFL's revenue sharing system (that dates back to around 1960).....Pete Rozelle came right out and said that was the only thing keeping the Packers in Green Bay because otherwise they'd NEVER be able to compete.

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12-31-2012, 10:38 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Wait, all markets are equivalent in your we eyes? That Nashville and Columbus are equivalent to mtl and Toronto? If that is true, why can't they be self sufficient and why are they reliant on the largesse of traditional markets?

Who are you trying to convince that these are viable markets, me or you? Saying that Toronto and mtl are, and will be, better markets than Columbus and Nashville is not some anti-southern conspiracy, its a fact.
Last time I checked they all have an equal vote on the BOG. Hence they are all equivalent in the eyes of the NHL too.

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12-31-2012, 11:15 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
The NHL should be able to sustain 32 markets soon, although there would have to be considerable relocation of current franchises.

I think that, overall, the southern expansion is a good idea for the growth of the game. However, the way it was executed was poor -- it was more guided by expansion fees than actually growing the game in a region where it is not usually played. As such, I think there needs to be a bit of a retreat from the South; the NHL should use its resources to ensure the survival of the approximately 50%+ southern teams that are relatively successful or have hopes of succeeding. Moreover, this will enable the NHL to get a foothold in the Pacific NorthWest, a region it has severely neglected.

I would relocate Anaheim, Phoenix, Carolina, and Florida to Portland, Quebec City, Seattle, and Hamilton. This would leave five sun-belt teams; San Jose, Los Angeles, Dallas, Nashville, and Tampa. I would also expand to Omaha and Salt Lake City.

I would hope for a 32 NHL league with a 4-conference, 8-division set up.

Atlantic Conference
NorthEast Division
Boston Bruins
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
New Jersey Devils

SouthEast Division
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Washington Capitals
Tampa Bay Lightning

Northern Conference
Eastern Division
Toronto Maple Leafs
Ottawa Senators
Montreal Canadiens
Quebec Nordiques

Central Division
Detroit Red Wings
Columbus Blue Jackets
Buffalo Sabres
Hamilton (Tigers?)

MidWestern Conference
Upper MidWest Division
Chicago Blackhawks
Minnesota Wild
Winnipeg Jets
Omaha

Lower Midwest Division
St. Louis Blues
Colorado Avalanche
Nashville Predators
Dallas Stars

Western Conference
NorthWestern Division
Edmonton Oilers
Calgary Flames
Vancouver Canucks
Seattle

SouthWestern Division
Portland
Salt Lake City
San Jose Sharks
Los Angeles Kings
Omaha couldn't support an AHL team. SLC may be shaky also. I would re-align your divisions. Portland and Seattle should be in the same divison. I would put the Wild and the Blackhawks with Nashville and St Louis.

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01-01-2013, 12:15 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The Packers are a VERY small market team that wouldn't exist without the NFL's revenue sharing system (that dates back to around 1960).....Pete Rozelle came right out and said that was the only thing keeping the Packers in Green Bay because otherwise they'd NEVER be able to compete.
Packers titles 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967 under Lombardi (7 to 11). The stadium capacity went from 39K to 51K during those years. Where did they get the players for 1961? Was it all of that NFL money that came in or the sellout string than started in 1960 and continues until today or the stock sales to the fans? Why didn't they win another SuperBowl until 1996 (#12) with that NFL revenue? For 2011, the Packers generated 130 million in local revenue, or 43%. They received 172 million in TV money and road receipts. Expenses were 259 million, including 1 home playoff game.

The Packers are still in Green Bay because the team can't be moved. It stays in Green Bay with local ownership or it gets dissolved and the money remaining from the sale after expenses goes to charity. They have no owner, only a board of directors. BTW, with the current expansion, paid for entirely by the team, Lambeau Field will be the 4th largest NFL stadium at nearly 80K capacity for 2013.

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01-01-2013, 12:21 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by adsfan View Post
Packers titles 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967 under Lombardi (7 to 11). The stadium capacity went from 39K to 51K during those years. Where did they get the players for 1961? Was it all of that NFL money that came in or the sellout string than started in 1960 and continues until today or the stock sales to the fans? Why didn't they win another SuperBowl until 1996 (#12) with that NFL revenue? For 2011, the Packers generated 130 million in local revenue, or 43%. They received 172 million in TV money and road receipts. Expenses were 259 million, including 1 home playoff game.

The Packers are still in Green Bay because the team can't be moved. It stays in Green Bay with local ownership or it gets dissolved and the money remaining from the sale after expenses goes to charity. They have no owner, only a board of directors. BTW, with the current expansion, paid for entirely by the team, Lambeau Field will be the 4th largest NFL stadium at nearly 80K capacity for 2013.
You ARE aware there was no free agency back in the 1960s right? Or are you calling Commissioner Rozelle a liar when he testified in court that the NFL's revenue sharing was the only thing keeping the Packers in existence (see Davis vs Rozelle et al). Or perhaps it's just that your a Packers homer who's had his pride wounded when someone points out the economic realities of tiny towns and big league sports.

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01-01-2013, 02:49 AM
  #334
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Well, like I said Kimota, Im well aware that such sentiments do exist, however, I dont encounter them myself beyond this site and in the scribblings of some less than enlightened media pundits primarily from central Canada. Personally, I was initially against Expansion in 67-68, however, after seeing how people responded in places like St.Louis & Philadelphia etc, the way the teams were put together, the interesting players who we'd have otherwise likely never have gotten to appreciate, I changed my tune, and wish others would do the same. Embrace these newer teams, support their efforts to succeed, welcome them.
Personaly I would like to, but give me a reason to care. Wich teams I care about for example? Nashville and Carolina because they are well-run franchises.

But really this sentiment I talked about, was mostly seen over time by me when I talk hockey with colleges, friends, family members, guys I play hockey with and it's even shared by most hockey tv personalities in Quebec. I did not travel far for it, but it's a perception I presume is shared by people living in Saskatchowan or any parts in Canada and hockey hot beds. Especially hardworking people that live and breath hockey. Although I may be wrong.

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01-01-2013, 02:57 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Whether you like it or not they're still a part of the history of the NHL and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make that go away. The Habs and the Leafs haven't been relevant in 20 years (hell, the Leafs haven't been relevant in 45 years).....but the Devils, Avalanche, and Stars have.
Strangely winning is not the only thing that makes you relevant when you are a popular franchise. Look at the Red Sox, they didn't win for a long time but they have not stopped being revelvant. Hell even after the winning ways of the Devils, the Avs and Stars, they fell back down and the Habs are more relevant even if they sucked for a long time, even after a crappy season last year. When you are in a hockey hot bed, you have the fortune that teams from other places, don't. In a shaky maket, you have to win or else.

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01-01-2013, 05:31 AM
  #336
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32

new teams in Seattle and Quebec City

I imagine that's exactly what will end up happening in the near future too

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01-01-2013, 09:14 AM
  #337
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32

new teams in Seattle and Quebec City

I imagine that's exactly what will end up happening in the near future too
If there are two new teams and you end up with 32, what happens to phoenix ? Im okay with 30 with some teams in new markets. I think it is better for the league to move struggling teams into slam dunk markets rather than keep the struggling teams in difficult/untenable markets and expand into the slam dunk markets.

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01-01-2013, 09:51 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Strangely winning is not the only thing that makes you relevant when you are a popular franchise. Look at the Red Sox, they didn't win for a long time but they have not stopped being revelvant. Hell even after the winning ways of the Devils, the Avs and Stars, they fell back down and the Habs are more relevant even if they sucked for a long time, even after a crappy season last year. When you are in a hockey hot bed, you have the fortune that teams from other places, don't. In a shaky maket, you have to win or else.
Really, the Habs were more relevant than the Devils last season? But the real comedy is when you basically say in your last few sentences that Habs fans will blindly love and passionately follow their team even when poor management results in an awful showing on the ice. What a great business model they have up there, where else can you fail your fan base with moves like the Gomez one and they'll still spend heavily on you and support you.. I guess you could look at that like its a wonderful thing, but to me it's kind of pathetic.. Not to mention that you have Habs and Leafs fans blasting the league for southern expansion while partially supporting those teams through their undying love of their own team

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01-01-2013, 10:05 AM
  #339
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Really, the Habs were more relevant than the Devils last season? But the real comedy is when you basically say in your last few sentences that Habs fans will blindly love and passionately follow their team even when poor management results in an awful showing on the ice. What a great business model they have up there, where else can you fail your fan base with moves like the Gomez one and they'll still spend heavily on you and support you.. I guess you could look at that like its a wonderful thing, but to me it's kind of pathetic.. Not to mention that you have Habs and Leafs fans blasting the league for southern expansion while partially supporting those teams through their undying love of their own team
If you run a model of only focusing on the last year I can see why southern teams have to win to stay relevant. Fans in Montreal and Toronto will support their respective teams in good times and bad. The leafs could be as bad for another decade and still be a better draw than the southern teams.

Yeah the habs have made some bad decisions, but when we do we don't go crying to the rest of the league to bail us out, we eat them and move on.

If you think that the most successful hockey franchise who could likely draw more fans to an inter squad scrimmage than teams in non traditional markets do for real games is pathetic, that's fine by me. If the process of staying away from games to try and get management to implement the fans will is a valid perspective, the southern teams must have lots of beefs with management because they have largely perfected staying away.

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01-01-2013, 10:26 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
If you run a model of only focusing on the last year I can see why southern teams have to win to stay relevant. Fans in Montreal and Toronto will support their respective teams in good times and bad. The leafs could be as bad for another decade and still be a better draw than the southern teams.

Yeah the habs have made some bad decisions, but when we do we don't go crying to the rest of the league to bail us out, we eat them and move on.

If you think that the most successful hockey franchise who could likely draw more fans to an inter squad scrimmage than teams in non traditional markets do for real games is pathetic, that's fine by me. If the process of staying away from games to try and get management to implement the fans will is a valid perspective, the southern teams must have lots of beefs with management because they have largely perfected staying away.
I suspect when the Preds have their 75 year anniversary, they will be more beloved and more popular than those teams because they treat their fans much better than those two teams. If Nashville continues to be as well managed as they have been, they will be more popular.

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01-01-2013, 10:53 AM
  #341
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32.

I don't like >50% of teams making the playoffs.

I'd love a team in the Pacific Northwest and another team in Ontario/Quebec City.

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01-01-2013, 11:20 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
32

new teams in Seattle and Quebec City

I imagine that's exactly what will end up happening in the near future too
I see 2 new expansion teams into CA they can get alot more $$$ for them and eventually Seattle getting PHX once their new building is ready.

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01-01-2013, 11:44 AM
  #343
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The NFL has been propping up Green Bay, Jacksonville, and Arizona in perpetuity.....but you don't hear the Cowboys and Giants complaining about it.
The NFL has been propping up Green Bay?


Last edited by mouser: 01-01-2013 at 12:19 PM. Reason: We're not 4chan
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01-01-2013, 11:56 AM
  #344
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The NFL has been propping up Green Bay?

"That the Green Bay Packers had managed to survive as a part of the National Football League was a source of great pride to Pete Rozelle. It was also central to the iconography of League Think. Left to Green Bay's native economic base, Rozelle was quick to point out, the Packers would have died in the modern age. The town had no media market to speak of, but thanks to the television-sharing policy initiated by the commissioner in 1961, that didn't matter. 'Where else could a place like Green Bay play the likes of New York and Los Angeles?' Rozelle asked. 'It says a lot for our League that they are still, and always will be part of it.'

- "The League" by David Harris, pages 154-155


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01-01-2013, 12:14 PM
  #345
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I suspect when the Preds have their 75 year anniversary, they will be more beloved and more popular than those teams because they treat their fans much better than those two teams. If Nashville continues to be as well managed as they have been, they will be more popular.
Are you serious ? I really can't tell. In 60 years there is a far better chance that the predators won't be in Nashville than them surpassing the leafs or habs. You would need to have unfettered exponential growth of that market for most of that time period to achieve this. Based on what I've seen so far, steady linear growth is questionable, much less exponential.

I personally would be tickled pink if it happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

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01-01-2013, 12:34 PM
  #346
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Are you serious ? I really can't tell. In 60 years there is a far better chance that the predators won't be in Nashville than them surpassing the leafs or habs. You would need to have unfettered exponential growth of that market for most of that time period to achieve this. Based on what I've seen so far, steady linear growth is questionable, much less exponential.

I personally would be tickled pink if it happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

I suspect you'll be tickled pink then. Your post makes me think you haven't actually watched many or any Predators games much less actually been to a Predators game in Nashville. They treat their fans like important customers and make sure they enjoy themselves. They put a great product on the ice.

The Leafs and Habs treat their customers horribly, put a lousy product on the ice and charge them as if both are icing the 76 Habs. They aren't, they are bad, poorly run teams who treat their customers with disdain. It's a perfect recipe to lose them.

Just because a team is popular doesn't mean it will stay popular forever.

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01-01-2013, 12:50 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
I suspect you'll be tickled pink then. Your post makes me think you haven't actually watched many or any Predators games much less actually been to a Predators game in Nashville. They treat their fans like important customers and make sure they enjoy themselves. They put a great product on the ice.

The Leafs and Habs treat their customers horribly, put a lousy product on the ice and charge them as if both are icing the 76 Habs. They aren't, they are bad, poorly run teams who treat their customers with disdain. It's a perfect recipe to lose them.

Just because a team is popular doesn't mean it will stay popular forever.
They change what the market will bear. Its just that for the habs and the leafs, their markets can bear a whole lot more than any of the southern teams.

The have and leafs are poorly run teams ? Man, that's rich. If being two of there three most powerful economic engines ( one being the mosr successful) in the league is treating their fans with distain, I'm okay being distained..

Just because a team is not popular doesn't mean it will be popular in the future. If Nashville built a rink a year for 60 years they would still be behind Montreal and Toronto. In the first 14 years, how many new rinks have been built?

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01-01-2013, 01:02 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
I suspect you'll be tickled pink then. Your post makes me think you haven't actually watched many or any Predators games much less actually been to a Predators game in Nashville. They treat their fans like important customers and make sure they enjoy themselves. They put a great product on the ice.

The Leafs and Habs treat their customers horribly, put a lousy product on the ice and charge them as if both are icing the 76 Habs. They aren't, they are bad, poorly run teams who treat their customers with disdain. It's a perfect recipe to lose them.

Just because a team is popular doesn't mean it will stay popular forever.
They change what the market will bear. Its just that for the habs and the leafs, their markets can bear a whole lot more than any of the southern teams.

The have and leafs are poorly run teams ? Man, that's rich. If being two of there three most powerful economic engines ( one being the mosr successful) in the league is treating their fans with distain, I'm okay being distained..

Just because a team is not popular doesn't mean it will be popular in the future. If Nashville built a rink a year for 60 years they would still be behind Montreal and Toronto. In the first 14 years, how many new rinks have been built?

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01-01-2013, 03:01 PM
  #349
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They change what the market will bear. Its just that for the habs and the leafs, their markets can bear a whole lot more than any of the southern teams.

The have and leafs are poorly run teams ? Man, that's rich. If being two of there three most powerful economic engines ( one being the mosr successful) in the league is treating their fans with distain, I'm okay being distained..

Just because a team is not popular doesn't mean it will be popular in the future. If Nashville built a rink a year for 60 years they would still be behind Montreal and Toronto. In the first 14 years, how many new rinks have been built?
Economic success today coupled with poor value is not something to brag about. Its a bad strategy. Its a strategy that they will regret if they don't begin treating their fans as if they care about them.

Building rinks is no indication of professional sports success.

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01-01-2013, 03:18 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Economic success today coupled with poor value is not something to brag about. Its a bad strategy. Its a strategy that they will regret if they don't begin treating their fans as if they care about them.

Building rinks is no indication of professional sports success.
I'm sorry, how do the habs and leafs treat their fans poorly? I don't know about Toronto but I have no problems with the ownership and we have a far better gm now. The coach is +/- right now.

And building rinks is one of the best ways to develop fans. I don't think it is a coincidence that the successful markets are also good hockey markets. The day the little kid laces them up or gets a jersey for Christmas and wants to emulate local players, you have a fan for life. Having a good hockey market makes having a good NHL market soo much easier. It allows kids from those markets to see the team and see the way forward if they want to take up the game.

I suppose you could develop a fan base without this, but having a growing hockey culture makes it so much easier.

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