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2012 CBA/Lockout talk Part VII..Will a deal get done..

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Old
01-01-2013, 11:52 AM
  #576
Kate08
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
I am pointing out the hypocrisy.

I know why fans care. Thanks for explaining it to me though.

Are you telling me it is bogus when the owners cry poor and have a lockout but we have no idea if they are telling the truth? It is bogus that that affects fans too?

And again, I don't think we should see them. I'd like to, but we have no right.

But that doesn't change the fact many here would become hypocritical immediately in that scenario.
What is considered "poor" in this scenario? What is considered "truth"? Isn't that all subjective, and that's why we're in the mess that we're in right now?

Let's say we did have full access to that information. You and I would easily look at the same set of numbers and come up with 2 different opinions on who is "at fault".

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01-01-2013, 11:57 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
What is considered "poor" in this scenario? What is considered "truth"? Isn't that all subjective, and that's why we're in the mess that we're in right now?

Let's say we did have full access to that information. You and I would easily look at the same set of numbers and come up with 2 different opinions on who is "at fault".
I. Have. Not. Argued. For. Seeing. The. Books.

I have discussed the hypocrisy. You apparently consider it bogus that fans would be interested in a player's contract because it affects the cap, but not in the finances of the league during a lockout.

Whatever.

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01-01-2013, 11:59 AM
  #578
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forget it.

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01-01-2013, 12:01 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
I. Have. Not. Argued. For. Seeing. The. Books.

I have discussed the hypocrisy. You apparently consider it bogus that fans would be interested in a player's contract because it affects the cap, but not in the finances of the league during a lockout.

Whatever.
Honestly, I didn't understand what you were arguing for. It makes sense now, thanks for the clarification.

Happy new year.

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01-01-2013, 12:02 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Kate08 View Post
Do you think the problem comes from Phoenix paying their equipment guys too much?
Or their arena, or their coaching staff, or their gm, or their assistants . . . we have no idea.

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01-01-2013, 12:04 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Or their arena, or their coaching staff, or their gm, or their assistants . . . we have no idea.
Didn't OOG say on the last page that the two parties use independent auditors and that there aren't accounting issues or arguments at hand?

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01-01-2013, 01:21 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Deal Law View Post
[OTE=Ludwig Fell Down;56982261]That's good news, but I'm still confused.

Who is Scut Farkus in your analogy?
Don Fehr, he had yellow eyes, so help me god yellow eyes.

Steve Fehr! Don's crummy little toadie. Mean, rotten, his lips curled over his green teeth.[/QUOTE]

Well played !

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Old
01-01-2013, 02:23 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
I. Have. Not. Argued. For. Seeing. The. Books.

I have discussed the hypocrisy. You apparently consider it bogus that fans would be interested in a player's contract because it affects the cap, but not in the finances of the league during a lockout.

Whatever.
I don't need to see the books either, but I would have preferred the league release SOME numbers to justify the lockout. It's been extraordinarily frustrating to be unable to forge informed opinions about something I'm so emotionally invested in.

I believe if those numbers are ever shared, they're going to look a lot worse than many people would have assumed.

Hey Mike... I don't think I saw a real response from you to the 300 page proposal from the NHL. I really liked it, but I'm curious as to what you think and where you believe they can go from here.

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01-01-2013, 02:31 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I don't need to see the books either, but I would have preferred the league release SOME numbers to justify the lockout. It's been extraordinarily frustrating to be unable to forge informed opinions about something I'm so emotionally invested in.

I believe if those numbers are ever shared, they're going to look a lot worse than many people would have assumed.

Hey Mike... I don't think I saw a real response from you to the 300 page proposal from the NHL. I really liked it, but I'm curious as to what you think and where you believe they can go from here.
You didn't ask, but I'll jump on the snark machine and opine that I hope where the NHL goes from here is Contraction Land, and a world of hurt. The NHL and the game of hockey are not synonymous. I hope they destroy themselves.

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01-01-2013, 02:46 PM
  #585
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But now It's time to make a move. Time to return to NYC and hopefully I'm coming back for the right reason like I said..

Hank is going to save the season.

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01-01-2013, 02:53 PM
  #586
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Bullying was a reference to ownerships "negotiation" strategy of issuing ultimatum after ultimatum and locking the doors on the league. It's taken them until 2013 to give up on undermining the nhlpa leadership and frightening the players and actually start. . . negotiations.

As for the rest of your post- no one pays to watch ownership. Their value should be in their ability to manage the league- whoever decided to try and sell hockey in Phoenix shouldn't be guaranteed to make indefinite profits from such a stupid mistake. Charles Wang shouldn't be guaranteed indefinite profits for the way he runs the islanders.
if it was a simple matter of paying to watch the playes play.. the players could go play anywhere and get paid

they need the owners arenas... and promotion.

we pay for a show... when these players retire we will pay for whatever players come next... and when they retire we will pay for the next ones too

if the players could get paid without the owners... they would.

owners will always find new players to promote in those big expensive buildings they own... and we will pay to see whatever players those players are

and as for the players that dont play for those owners in those buildings that are owned by the owners and promoted by the owners... can go play anywhere else they want... anywhere... and we wont watch it

we dont watch the khl
we dont want the ahl
we dont want the swedish elite leagues

the players can still play... but we arent watching cause the owners have a lockout

so i totally disagree with you about that

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01-01-2013, 02:57 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I don't need to see the books either, but I would have preferred the league release SOME numbers to justify the lockout. It's been extraordinarily frustrating to be unable to forge informed opinions about something I'm so emotionally invested in.

I believe if those numbers are ever shared, they're going to look a lot worse than many people would have assumed.

Hey Mike... I don't think I saw a real response from you to the 300 page proposal from the NHL. I really liked it, but I'm curious as to what you think and where you believe they can go from here.
It is still a huge win for the owners. I never thought they were out for blood, but they were, and they got it. This looks "fair" because of their first "proposal." That proposal was so brilliant it amazes me that so many of these genius business owners apparently can't control themselves when they run their hockey team. They didn't care about losing actual games, they don't actually care about the fans or the integrity of the game, and as a result they were willing to go as long as possible in hopes of maximizing how much blood they got.

Honestly, Gary Bettman deserves a raise from his 30 bosses. I genuinely don't think he cares about the game of hockey one iota unless it benefits 30 people. Which is fine, they pay him to do just that. I am not demonizing him. It is what it is.

Kudos to Don Fehr for at least keeping the players from bleeding to death.

I am actually looking forward to not giving the NHL any money, that is how disgusted I am with what has transpired. And I know I get called a union shill, but I supported the owners in 04 because I thought they were right and the league was in trouble. I believe in right and wrong, and I think the owners have been in the wrong the entire time.

The main issues going into this were revenue split, cap-circumventing deals, and cap-circumventing transactions (Redden-type moves). The owners could have gotten this from the players before the lockout if they had been reasonable about them. At least that is what I believe.

So in summary, huge win for the owners, masterfully played to make it look like they made all sorts of "concessions," but I firmly believe it will come at a cost. If they can turn me away from them I doubt I am the only one.

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Old
01-01-2013, 03:03 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
if it was a simple matter of paying to watch the playes play.. the players could go play anywhere and get paid

they need the owners arenas... and promotion.

we pay for a show... when these players retire we will pay for whatever players come next... and when they retire we will pay for the next ones too

if the players could get paid without the owners... they would.

owners will always find new players to promote in those big expensive buildings they own... and we will pay to see whatever players those players are

and as for the players that dont play for those owners in those buildings that are owned by the owners and promoted by the owners... can go play anywhere else they want... anywhere... and we wont watch it

we dont watch the khl
we dont want the ahl
we dont want the swedish elite leagues

the players can still play... but we arent watching cause the owners have a lockout

so i totally disagree with you about that
Arenas and Promotion? Do you think the reason people are willing to pay more to see the Boston Bruins instead of the Providence Bruins is that the building is nicer and they have better PR?

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01-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by 08SeaBass08 View Post
If this is your version of the "bullying" being committed by the league, then we have a very different perspective of what "bullying" is.

You make the owners out to be some kind of benevolent gift-givers, who are simply misunderstood and unappreciated by the recipients of those gifts. I make the owners out to be something very different.

I'll give you a different analogy - Andrew Carnegie. Carnegie gave away almost all of his fortune when he died. That makes him a great man, right? However, he made his fortune by screwing over every rank-and-file employee with low wages, terrible working conditions and the perpetual threat of job loss. So his money, while spent nobly, was as ill-gotten as possible. By your measure, we should ignore how his fortune was made because he did such good with it later.

From what details have been published in the media, I believe this latest offer from management is a good and fair one the players should agree to.

My problem is that management wasn't interested in making any semblance of a fair offer until the NHLPA stood their ground. Had management been more forthright in what the economic realities were from the beginning, I believe this stupidity could have been avoided. Instead, they were committed to making the best deal possible for themselves, and in doing so, created a more adversarial relationship with the NHLPA than was necessary. Some would call this good business. I call it dishonesty, and I don't blame the players at all for responding the way they did.

I refuse to accept the notion the management/labor relationship in any industry has to be adversarial.

To return to your playground bully analogy, the owners thought they could take some lunch money from the weak kid, and when the weak kid punched them back in the face repeatedly, the owners cried to the teacher that the weak kid wasn't playing nicely.
lets see if we can find common ground here... and look at the facts

so we will study it from the players side

they want to play hockey... agreed?

so they have some choices... agreed?

they could start their own league... but they dont... thats one possible choice

they could go to the khl or some other league... and some do... thats another possible choice

they could choose to simply not play hockey... thats another choice...

so lets say they want to play hockey... and lets say that theres complciated labour laws in the land that have penalties against monopolies...

now... thats where we are... i hope you agree

so now lets ask... given these realities.. how much bullying is actually going on?

i believe most owners lose money... i believe the evidence speaks for itself...

and yet you believe the players get bullied.

i dont see many players getting screwed over on their money... they make more then anywhere else...

so what defines bullying to you?

is it the hours they are forced to work?

seems to me they work less then you and i do... so what definies bullying to you?

they say a five year guaranteed deal averaging 2.5 mill a year is bullying...
would you be ok if your boss bullied you that way?

some people say... that we arent like hockey players so stop comparing ourselves to them...

so what definies bullying to you?

if im right.. and most owners lose money... are they the ones being bullied?
is that what im meant to infer by your own example?

are the owners in the nhl.. the rinkraft...

do the players use the threat of antitrust and monoploy right to work rules... against the owners in these cba negotiations?

who is being bullied?
i wonder?

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01-01-2013, 03:10 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
lets see if we can find common ground here... and look at the facts

so we will study it from the players side

they want to play hockey... agreed?

so they have some choices... agreed?

they could start their own league... but they dont... thats one possible choice

they could go to the khl or some other league... and some do... thats another possible choice

they could choose to simply not play hockey... thats another choice...

so lets say they want to play hockey... and lets say that theres complciated labour laws in the land that have penalties against monopolies...

now... thats where we are... i hope you agree

so now lets ask... given these realities.. how much bullying is actually going on?

i believe most owners lose money... i believe the evidence speaks for itself...

and yet you believe the players get bullied.

i dont see many players getting screwed over on their money... they make more then anywhere else...

so what defines bullying to you?

is it the hours they are forced to work?

seems to me they work less then you and i do... so what definies bullying to you?

they say a five year guaranteed deal averaging 2.5 mill a year is bullying...
would you be ok if your boss bullied you that way?


some people say... that we arent like hockey players so stop comparing ourselves to them...

so what definies bullying to you?

if im right.. and most owners lose money... are they the ones being bullied?
is that what im meant to infer by your own example?

are the owners in the nhl.. the rinkraft...

do the players use the threat of antitrust and monoploy right to work rules... against the owners in these cba negotiations?

who is being bullied?
i wonder?
Yes
Yes
Not much, thanks to Fehr
Using threats and force to get what you want
No
Using threats/force to get what you want
Hell yes, I don't generate anywhere near that for my city (though I might if we look long term).
Using threats/force to get what you want
No
Don't think so
Yes after months of the NHL refusing to negotiate.
No one, thanks to Fehr
The last one is too existential.

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01-01-2013, 03:10 PM
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Arenas and Promotion? Do you think the reason people are willing to pay more to see the Boston Bruins instead of the Providence Bruins is that the building is nicer and they have better PR?
alot of nhl players are playing for providence this year right? do mroe people watch the games? how many more?

does providence get NHL tv ratings now because they have NHL players?

does the KHL?

does Sweden?

personally speaking... heres a challange to you personally... how many of the B players have you followed to their new homes? How many dollars came out of your pocket to watch chara and bergeron and seguin play for their new teams?

ill fess up... i havent spent a penny on it

call me evil and a bad fan... but i watch the boston bruins play. i did it when terry oreilly was my hero. i did it when adam oates was here. he left... and went to washington and edmonton.. and i didnt follow him. instead i watched when marc savard came here and david krecji

and ill watch when the next guys show up too

i love the guys when they are here...
but when they go somewhere else i love whatever new guys come here

and i bet most fans are like me

and the low ratings for khl games and ahl games and wha and ihl games when those leagues were failing tend to back me up

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01-01-2013, 03:14 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
Yes
Yes
Plenty
Using threats and force to get what you want
No
Using threats/force to get what you want
No
Don't think so
Yes after months of the NHL refusing to negotiate.
No one, thanks to Fehr
The last one is too existential.
i love how much you can passionately fight for what you believe in... and still stay so polite. i cant agree with most of what you say but i admire how you say it.

i dont know if we are getting anywhere cause i still disagree and you do too... but it was fun having this disagreement which is amazing considering how little fun im having about the problem we are discussing

ultimately lets hope they do come to an agreement and we can have more fun topics to debate in the future

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01-01-2013, 03:16 PM
  #593
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Everett Mike- great post re the owners strategy. Start unbelievably low, agree to a 50-50 split on HRR (the 7% reduction means an annual $210mm savings on $3b of revenue) then grant a few " concessions" to sway public opinion and thendemonize Fehr. Regardless of which side you support, the strategy is brilliant from a financial sense...it remains to be seen how much the PR hit will impact their calculations.

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01-01-2013, 03:30 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
alot of nhl players are playing for providence this year right? do mroe people watch the games? how many more?

does providence get NHL tv ratings now because they have NHL players?

does the KHL?

does Sweden?

personally speaking... heres a challange to you personally... how many of the B players have you followed to their new homes? How many dollars came out of your pocket to watch chara and bergeron and seguin play for their new teams?

ill fess up... i havent spent a penny on it

call me evil and a bad fan... but i watch the boston bruins play. i did it when terry oreilly was my hero. i did it when adam oates was here. he left... and went to washington and edmonton.. and i didnt follow him. instead i watched when marc savard came here and david krecji

and ill watch when the next guys show up too

i love the guys when they are here...
but when they go somewhere else i love whatever new guys come here

and i bet most fans are like me

and the low ratings for khl games and ahl games and wha and ihl games when those leagues were failing tend to back me up
-Caron is as close as they come.
-Probably, but I don't know
-Don't know
-No but there are plenty of people asking for prov coverage around here lately-
-Don't know
-Don't know, but Seguin has been a freakish sensation overseas
- I just looked up the Alaskan ECHL team for the first time to see if Gomez can score anywhere- and I'd probably watch their games if they were on
-0 but I'm cheap and I figured this wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. I did get down to Providence twice though.

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01-01-2013, 03:36 PM
  #595
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So in summary, huge win for the owners, masterfully played to make it look like they made all sorts of "concessions," but I firmly believe it will come at a cost. If they can turn me away from them I doubt I am the only one.

"QFT"

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01-01-2013, 03:37 PM
  #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
lets see if we can find common ground here... and look at the facts

so we will study it from the players side

they want to play hockey... agreed?

so they have some choices... agreed?

they could start their own league... but they dont... thats one possible choice

they could go to the khl or some other league... and some do... thats another possible choice

they could choose to simply not play hockey... thats another choice...

so lets say they want to play hockey... and lets say that theres complciated labour laws in the land that have penalties against monopolies...

now... thats where we are... i hope you agree

so now lets ask... given these realities.. how much bullying is actually going on?

i believe most owners lose money... i believe the evidence speaks for itself...

and yet you believe the players get bullied.

i dont see many players getting screwed over on their money... they make more then anywhere else...

so what defines bullying to you?

is it the hours they are forced to work?

seems to me they work less then you and i do... so what definies bullying to you?

they say a five year guaranteed deal averaging 2.5 mill a year is bullying...
would you be ok if your boss bullied you that way?

some people say... that we arent like hockey players so stop comparing ourselves to them...

so what definies bullying to you?

if im right.. and most owners lose money... are they the ones being bullied?
is that what im meant to infer by your own example?

are the owners in the nhl.. the rinkraft...

do the players use the threat of antitrust and monoploy right to work rules... against the owners in these cba negotiations?

who is being bullied?
i wonder?
Dude, the problem isn't "bullying."

The NHL has gone about this CBA in a way that appears as though they consider the union to be illegitimate. You may not LIKE that there is an NHLPA... But you best damn well accept the reality that it IS reality. It strikes me that with this last proposal, the NHL finally decided to realize it (I'll respond to Mike about my position there in a mo or two).

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01-01-2013, 04:12 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
It is still a huge win for the owners. I never thought they were out for blood, but they were, and they got it. This looks "fair" because of their first "proposal." That proposal was so brilliant it amazes me that so many of these genius business owners apparently can't control themselves when they run their hockey team. They didn't care about losing actual games, they don't actually care about the fans or the integrity of the game, and as a result they were willing to go as long as possible in hopes of maximizing how much blood they got.

Honestly, Gary Bettman deserves a raise from his 30 bosses. I genuinely don't think he cares about the game of hockey one iota unless it benefits 30 people. Which is fine, they pay him to do just that. I am not demonizing him. It is what it is.

Kudos to Don Fehr for at least keeping the players from bleeding to death.

I am actually looking forward to not giving the NHL any money, that is how disgusted I am with what has transpired. And I know I get called a union shill, but I supported the owners in 04 because I thought they were right and the league was in trouble. I believe in right and wrong, and I think the owners have been in the wrong the entire time.

The main issues going into this were revenue split, cap-circumventing deals, and cap-circumventing transactions (Redden-type moves). The owners could have gotten this from the players before the lockout if they had been reasonable about them. At least that is what I believe.

So in summary, huge win for the owners, masterfully played to make it look like they made all sorts of "concessions," but I firmly believe it will come at a cost. If they can turn me away from them I doubt I am the only one.
Marvelous work here sir. I agree with everything, couldn't have said it any better myself.

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Old
01-01-2013, 04:19 PM
  #598
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Marvelous work here sir. I agree with everything, couldn't have said it any better myself.
Seconded.

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01-01-2013, 04:22 PM
  #599
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It is still a huge win for the owners. I never thought they were out for blood, but they were, and they got it. This looks "fair" because of their first "proposal." That proposal was so brilliant it amazes me that so many of these genius business owners apparently can't control themselves when they run their hockey team. They didn't care about losing actual games, they don't actually care about the fans or the integrity of the game, and as a result they were willing to go as long as possible in hopes of maximizing how much blood they got.

Honestly, Gary Bettman deserves a raise from his 30 bosses. I genuinely don't think he cares about the game of hockey one iota unless it benefits 30 people. Which is fine, they pay him to do just that. I am not demonizing him. It is what it is.

Kudos to Don Fehr for at least keeping the players from bleeding to death.

I am actually looking forward to not giving the NHL any money, that is how disgusted I am with what has transpired. And I know I get called a union shill, but I supported the owners in 04 because I thought they were right and the league was in trouble. I believe in right and wrong, and I think the owners have been in the wrong the entire time.

The main issues going into this were revenue split, cap-circumventing deals, and cap-circumventing transactions (Redden-type moves). The owners could have gotten this from the players before the lockout if they had been reasonable about them. At least that is what I believe.

So in summary, huge win for the owners, masterfully played to make it look like they made all sorts of "concessions," but I firmly believe it will come at a cost. If they can turn me away from them I doubt I am the only one.


Do you think that the NHL's opening offer is the same if Paul Kelly is in charge instead of Don Fehr?

The PA had shown no signs of cooperation leading up to that offer. They **** on the re-alignment, wouldn't negotiate, etc..

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01-01-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
Do you think that the NHL's opening offer is the same if Paul Kelly is in charge instead of Don Fehr?

The PA had shown no signs of cooperation leading up to that offer. They **** on the re-alignment, wouldn't negotiate, etc..
I don't know and I don't have any idea. The firing of Paul Kelly has made more and more sense to me as this has gone on. Bettman is all about the owners and not the game, the players needed a guy like that too. You wouldn't want to send a golden retriever in to fight a pitbull on your behalf either. Bettman is who he is, I doubt he would have changed his tactics regardless of the other side and how nice they were.

And I will say this for the 1 millionth time. No one should **** on the players for refusing to negotiate early or **** on the owners for refusing to let the game continue on without a current CBA.

That is the reality, and while it sucks for us, time is leverage.

I have been adamant in my defense of both sides on this issue the entire time.

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