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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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01-01-2013, 06:56 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
If hockey was a sport where it was crucial to have to highly paid goalies and that keeping that 2nd goalie would somehow make up for other deficiences, then sure, keep Lu. But it doesn't work that way in hockey. It's like hiring two executive chefs for your restaurant but not being able to afford any other staff.

Guarantee me that Luongo will have more value if we wait until next year. He'll be a year older, another year removed from being a true starter and we'll be another year beyond our ideal window to win.

I don't see it. Maybe he holds his value, hell maybe it even slightly goes up, but what do you really think will change other than another year going by?

In my opinion, if we get a shortened season it is a benefit to us. We NEED to go for it and that might just mean taking less that what some of you seem to think we might get. If Luongo was truly as coveted as some think, a deal would have been done before the lockout. Nobody however was willing to take that big of a chance on him.
Thank you bud. I just hate the notion that people think I want to rip off the Canucks, I just understand what that Salary+ NTC is capable of.

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01-01-2013, 06:58 PM
  #577
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Nash is inferior? How many Power forwards in the League have his pedigree of overall package?

Lol, NYR's 1st round pick? That's definitely the same as the Leafs 1st rounder...

In what world, is Tim Erixon a A- prospect? He's not on the level of a prospect like Kadri or a 'graduate' like Gardiner. A-, lol.

Columbus wanted Mcdonagh, they wanted Kreider, Stepan, Hagelin or Del Zotto were not added.

Come on guys.
Nash is inferior, over the past 3-4 NHL seasons he hasn't come close to the impact of Luongo.

Downplay the NYR package all you want but it's much better than Bozak+Franson. Since when do elite players of any age get traded for a #2/3C and a #6 dman?

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01-01-2013, 07:03 PM
  #578
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No. Sometimes in business you have to accept your hand and take a loss. You're telling me the owner that's paying Luongo all that money is going to like the idea of owing him that money on the bench or at the potential of a goalie controversy? You know what the Canadian media is capable of, you'd have to be crazy to think Luongo will be a Canuck to finish the year.

The funny thing is, you have a vast number of both experts and 'amateurs' that understand this concept, but it's just a select few that can't come to terms with it.

Luongo's No trade clause also kills his value.

I know what Luongo is, he's an elite goaltender that's aging. He also comes with a heavy pay cheque and limits the amount of teams that can take him. He's not going to get back the moon, look at what Rick Nash was traded for. Everything Columbus wanted from NYR was not included, it's just hopeless praying...

Heavy Salary+Age+NTC= Grand Slam return?

k
Our ownership doesn't even come into this matter, they have the pockets to pay out Luongo this year for the tune of his salary, if they thought it meant we'd win more with out him. The Aquilini's want to win, period. Hence keeping players like Lukowich and Reinprecht who had multimillion dollar salaries, in the minors in recent times.

His trade value, even assuming you're correct in your assessment, and even if it's debatable, it's not definite, his value to us, is still unaffected by your biased assessment. Even if you throw out his play, like you have, and his service to this team, which shouldn't affect your assessment, why do we accept Bozak, Franson, Kadri and a pick for a player that makes our team better, even to the tune of 5 more wins as a back up then the usual revolving door back up, if those players don't make us better today?

And really, the Rick Nash return wasn't sufficient? It was quantity for quality, but a 1st, a 2nd line center/winger, a potential top six center (who at the very least, is a stellar shutdown third liner in the next few years) and a top 6 defender with more potential? That's Grabovski, Kadri, Franson and a 1st for Nash, care to match? Of course not.

I mean damn, with the way you're cutting down our opinions and our reasoning for NOT GIVING AN ELITE PLAYER AWAY FOR NEXT TO FREE, you're choice of a Kanye West album cover works. You're right, just take him. Take Kesler and the Sedins too. Oh, and Hamhuis. Just take them, they're yours. They can't help us because there is internal competition for their spots, and all of them are cheaper. So better we do Toronto a freaking favor then waste their talents with less ice time here.


Last edited by Cogburn: 01-01-2013 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Not needed.
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01-01-2013, 07:04 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Nash is inferior, over the past 3-4 NHL seasons he hasn't come close to the impact of Luongo.

Downplay the NYR package all you want but it's much better than Bozak+Franson. Since when do elite players of any age get traded for a #2/3C and a #6 dman?
Nash had insane value because he's a rare breed of player, like Luongo. To a team that already has a star goaltender, Nash's presence is just as great as trading Luongo to a team that needs his net presence. But his salary and NTC killed a lot of his value, it's the way sports work unfortunately.

I'd love to give the Ranger's package for Luongo, under achievers and a B rank prospect for a star? Sign me up, but I don't want to rip off the Canucks because I don't like trades that are very one sided.

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01-01-2013, 07:09 PM
  #580
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Nash had insane value because he's a rare breed of player, like Luongo. To a team that already has a star goaltender, Nash's presence is just as great as trading Luongo to a team that needs his net presence. But his salary and NTC killed a lot of his value, it's the way sports work unfortunately.

I'd love to give the Ranger's package for Luongo, under achievers and a B rank prospect for a star? Sign me up, but I don't want to rip off the Canucks because I don't like trades that are very one sided.
I politely beg to differ, given the evidence so far in the last few pages.

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01-01-2013, 07:10 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
Nash had insane value because he's a rare breed of player, like Luongo. To a team that already has a star goaltender, Nash's presence is just as great as trading Luongo to a team that needs his net presence. But his salary and NTC killed a lot of his value, it's the way sports work unfortunately.

I'd love to give the Ranger's package for Luongo, under achievers and a B rank prospect for a star? Sign me up, but I don't want to rip off the Canucks because I don't like trades that are very one sided.
And Luongo will have "insane value" because he's an elite/HHOF worthy goaltender especially to a team that lacks any starting goalie.

Please do show me what a TO equivalent of NYR's package would be.

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01-01-2013, 07:12 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Our ownership doesn't even come into this matter, they have the pockets to pay out Luongo this year for the tune of his salary, if they thought it meant we'd win more with out him. The Aquilini's want to win, period. Hence keeping players like Lukowich and Reinprecht who had multimillion dollar salaries, in the minors in recent times.

His trade value, even assuming you're correct in your assessment, and even if it's debatable, it's not definite, his value to us, is still unaffected by your biased assessment. Even if you throw out his play, like you have, and his service to this team, which shouldn't affect your assessment, why do we accept Bozak, Franson, Kadri and a pick for a player that makes our team better, even to the tune of 5 more wins as a back up then the usual revolving door back up, if those players don't make us better today?

And really, the Rick Nash return wasn't sufficient? It was quantity for quality, but a 1st, a 2nd line center/winger, a potential top six center (who at the very least, is a stellar shutdown third liner in the next few years) and a top 6 defender with more potential? That's Grabovski, Kadri, Franson and a 1st for Nash, care to match? Of course not.

I mean damn, with the way you're cutting down our opinions and our reasoning for NOT GIVING AN ELITE PLAYER AWAY FOR NEXT TO FREE, you're choice of a Kanye West album cover works. You're right, just take him. Take Kesler and the Sedins too. Oh, and Hamhuis. Just take them, they're yours. They can't help us because there is internal competition for their spots, and all of them are cheaper. So better we do Toronto a freaking favor then waste their talents with less ice time here.
The thing is, NYR 1st is a lot less 'valuable' than the Leafs(perennial scrubs) 1st round pick. It's a lot closer to the Leafs 2nd round pick.

Grabovski is better than Anismov and Dubinsky at this point in their careers, and more consistent in the last couple of years. Erixon is not on the level of Kadri or Gardiner, there is no debating that.

I only use the Nash example to show that what a team desires for an elite talent isn't what is feasible due to the circumstances.

I also love the ending to your post, it actually made me laugh. Believe it or not, I think you guys adding the twin and Kesler would be an over payment on your part Seriously, I mean it when I say I don't want to rip you guys off, it's just my opinion.

If H.Sedin was to be traded to the Leafs it would Start with Gardiner and a 1st, I'm fair when it comes to trades.

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01-01-2013, 07:12 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Nash is inferior, over the past 3-4 NHL seasons he hasn't come close to the impact of Luongo.

Downplay the NYR package all you want but it's much better than Bozak+Franson. Since when do elite players of any age get traded for a #2/3C and a #6 dman?
I guess if you consider the age of both players? Or if you consider the market? Nash apparently had numerous teams interested in him, he went to the highest bidder. Luongo has a NTC, plays for a team with a starter, is older and has a contract signed beyond to when he'll play.

As for Nash and less impact, I am not sure how we compare a goalie on an elite team and a forward languishing for years in an ineptly run organization.

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01-01-2013, 07:14 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
And Luongo will have "insane value" because he's an elite/HHOF worthy goaltender especially to a team that lacks any starting goalie.

Please do show me what a TO equivalent of NYR's package would be.
Seconded.

Anisimov - 3rd line shut down center, size, and inconsistent offence with the potential for big improvement.
Erixon - Probably a top 6 on Columbus, high potential.
Dubinsky - Definite top six center, can play wing, very good at both ends of the ice.
A likely late 1st.

Let's hear it.

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01-01-2013, 07:16 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I guess if you consider the age of both players? Or if you consider the market? Nash apparently had numerous teams interested in him, he went to the highest bidder. Luongo has a NTC, plays for a team with a starter, is older and has a contract signed beyond to when he'll play.

As for Nash and less impact, I am not sure how we compare a goalie on an elite team and a forward languishing for years in an ineptly run organization.
Nash has arguably 5 elite years left vs Luongo's 3-5. Both players have NTCs that heavily influence the offers, the only difference is that Nash's list was leaked while Luongo's has yet to be made.

Why not compare Nash/Luongo? Both are elite players who had teams built around them, Luongo was a huge reason why the Canucks were successful (Jennings, Vezina nom, Nuck's playoff MVP) and Nash was the leading scorer/go to guy of his team.

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01-01-2013, 07:16 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
And Luongo will have "insane value" because he's an elite/HHOF worthy goaltender especially to a team that lacks any starting goalie.

Please do show me what a TO equivalent of NYR's package would be.




In only terms of comparing to the Rangers...

Dubinsky= Kulemin
Anisimov= Bozak or MacArthur
Erixon= Colborne or a Blacker, or a Finn w.e Def not a Kadri or Gardiner...
1st=2nd

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01-01-2013, 07:17 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
And Luongo will have "insane value" because he's an elite/HHOF worthy goaltender especially to a team that lacks any starting goalie.

Please do show me what a TO equivalent of NYR's package would be.
It's a little more than "lacks a starting goalie". At 33 going on 34 this season, is Luongo going to make a difference in the Leafs fortunes? Maybe? If they were a goalie away from being a REAL contender then maybe they pay up big. But they know, just like everyone else does, what his age and contract status are. They also know he wasn't enough to EVER get the Panthers into the playoffs.

This discussion cannot be had meaningfully with people who refuse to consider ALL of the aspects of this situation.

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01-01-2013, 07:20 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
It's a little more than "lacks a starting goalie". At 33 going on 34 this season, is Luongo going to make a difference in the Leafs fortunes? Maybe? If they were a goalie away from being a REAL contender then maybe they pay up big. But they know, just like everyone else does, what his age and contract status are. They also know he wasn't enough to EVER get the Panthers into the playoffs.

This discussion cannot be had meaningfully with people who refuse to consider ALL of the aspects of this situation.
Teams don't just trade for elite talent when they are one of two pieces away. Burke has shown a willingness to trade for players when his team is clearly lacking a supporting cast/players to contend.

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01-01-2013, 07:22 PM
  #589
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Nash has arguably 5 elite years left vs Luongo's 3-5. Both players have NTCs that heavily influence the offers, the only difference is that Nash's list was leaked while Luongo's has yet to be made.

Why not compare Nash/Luongo? Both are elite players who had teams built around them, Luongo was a huge reason why the Canucks were successful (Jennings, Vezina nom, Nuck's playoff MVP) and Nash was the leading scorer/go to guy of his team.
While we're at it, lets also mention they are both males born in Canada who play hockey. OMG, we can totally compare them!!

If Lu's trade value was indeed as great as some of you think, he'd already be traded.

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01-01-2013, 07:22 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
[/B]

In only terms of comparing to the Rangers...

Dubinsky= Kulemin
Anisimov= Bozak or MacArthur
Erixon= Colborne or a Blacker, or a Finn w.e Def not a Kadri or Gardiner...
1st=2nd

It's clear that you overrate Leafs' players but you must also think that Nash >> Luongo because that package is >> Bozak/Franson.

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01-01-2013, 07:23 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
If Lu's trade value was indeed as great as some of you think, he'd already be traded.
If Gillis' thought so lowly of Luongo's worth he would've already been a Leaf at the draft. Clearly he's waiting out for higher value.

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01-01-2013, 07:24 PM
  #592
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Teams don't just trade for elite talent when they are one of two pieces away. Burke has shown a willingness to trade for players when his team is clearly lacking a supporting cast/players to contend.
Burke has NEVER, NEVER, EVER shown a tendency to make a big move for a goalie. Give them away? Sure. We can play this game any way you want, the chips are all on my side of the table.

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01-01-2013, 07:26 PM
  #593
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The thing is, NYR 1st is a lot less 'valuable' than the Leafs(perennial scrubs) 1st round pick. It's a lot closer to the Leafs 2nd round pick.

Grabovski is better than Anismov and Dubinsky at this point in their careers, and more consistent in the last couple of years. Erixon is not on the level of Kadri or Gardiner, there is no debating that.

I only use the Nash example to show that what a team desires for an elite talent isn't what is feasible due to the circumstances.

I also love the ending to your post, it actually made me laugh. Believe it or not, I think you guys adding the twin and Kesler would be an over payment on your part Seriously, I mean it when I say I don't want to rip you guys off, it's just my opinion.

If H.Sedin was to be traded to the Leafs it would Start with Gardiner and a 1st, I'm fair when it comes to trades.
The Rangers are likely to finish in playoff position, and could go deep, but it's not for sure. At the same time, I am of the mind that a solid, not even elite, but solid, starting goaltender makes Toronto a playoff team. If you're trading it for immediate improvement, it's not a guaranteed top 5, or even top 10 pick. Offer an equivalent to a later pick if you think that the Leafs will bomb with Luongo, but then I have to ask, why trade for him? I'm not trying to be provocative here, but I'd be curious as to why you go after a 33 year old goalie if you don't think you'll win with him.

Grabovski is better then Anisimov OR Dubinsky, but together they are more valuable. Also, Dubinsky's contract status, being over a million cheaper in cap space, and having an inconsistent offensive skill set, but being very, very, very good defensively (both have scouting reports saying so, so it's not just me thinking this), and none of them being likely to be in our top six permanently this year, cheapness helps the value to us. I'd still value Grabovski more then either, because of his offensive skill (which admittedly we lack), but it's not like Dubi or Anisimov are throw ins.

Also, in my opinion, the amount that Grabovski > Dubinksi, I'd say Anisimov > Kadri, simply because Anisimov has stuck in the NHL with a playoff calibre team.

Erixon vs. Gardiner...no contest, yes, I agree. Kadri is a cusp NHLer, at best, and until he sticks with a team and we see what he's made of, I'm not prepared to say Kadri over Erixon with no discussion.

As for the last post...it genuinely feels like most Leaf fans want that all for their 7th round pick and Komisarek. I was only half sarcastic

And Henrik is a moot point, as he's not being moved. Drop the 1st, it's Kessel+Gardiner+Phaneuf+ for the Sedins just to open negotiations in theory, but they're retiring Canucks. 2 recent Art Ross winners, one of which was a league MVP and the other winning the Ted Lindsay award just aren't being moved, so I'd say the less being said, the better. We value them as 100+ point players at their peak of skill and ability, in spite of a down year (comparatively) last year, along with all our guys.

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01-01-2013, 07:27 PM
  #594
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If Gillis' thought so lowly of Luongo's worth he would've already been a Leaf at the draft. Clearly he's waiting out for higher value.
If his value was high, somebody would have stepped up and grabbed this HHOF quality, elite goalie that will turn a team into a winner with a wave of his magic wand. They would have ignored his age, his contract, the CBA, his NTC and everything else that negatively affects this deal.

Gillis can wait as long as he wants, Lu's value isn't going up unless a team that wants to win now loses their goalie and has the assets to pay while still keeping their own team strong.

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01-01-2013, 07:27 PM
  #595
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Burke has NEVER, NEVER, EVER shown a tendency to make a big move for a goalie. Give them away? Sure. We can play this game any way you want, the chips are all on my side of the table.
It's possible in the many years of acquiring mediocre goalies and seeing them fail Burke has realized an elite goaltender (like Giguere) is a much better option. The rumours around the draft would indicate so.

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01-01-2013, 07:29 PM
  #596
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Gillis can wait as long as he wants, Lu's value isn't going up unless a team that wants to win now loses their goalie and has the assets to pay while still keeping their own team strong.
And in the meantime the Canucks can enjoy the best tandem in what will likely be a compact schedule.

There was literally no upside to dealing Luongo pre draft if it didn't improve our team.

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01-01-2013, 07:31 PM
  #597
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It's clear that you overrate Leafs' players but you must also think that Nash >> Luongo because that package is >> Bozak/Franson.
And reason as to why you question my selections?

Dubinsky is not comparable to Kulemin? Both coming off of bad years. Both have second line potentials, the year prior Kulemin had 30 goals lol...

Is Anisimov that much better than Bozak or MacArthur? His PPG doesn't really dictate that, and his two way play doesn't blow either player out of the water although I do give him the edge.

is Erixon better than Kadri or Gardiner?

Is the NYR 1st worth the same as the Leafs?

Instead of just posting smug responses with nothing to back them up, how about you prove me wrong.

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01-01-2013, 07:32 PM
  #598
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It's possible in the many years of acquiring mediocre goalies and seeing them fail Burke has realized an elite goaltender (like Giguere) is a much better option. The rumours around the draft would indicate so.
I am sure Burke would love to get a goalie. Now make him pay for it. This is a guy that road the Cloutier train to his grave, so when he speaks highly of his current netminders you may want to actually believe him.

I have no doubt BB wants a goalie (Luongo or the like), I just don't think he'll overpay when he knows the suitors are limited.


If there was no salary cap & no NTC, I am sure Lu would fetch us a large return. Neither of those things is going away and in fact it might actually be getting worse.

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01-01-2013, 07:34 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
[/B]

In only terms of comparing to the Rangers...

Dubinsky= Kulemin
Anisimov= Bozak or MacArthur
Erixon= Colborne or a Blacker, or a Finn w.e Def not a Kadri or Gardiner...
1st=2nd
Dubinsky's down year was better then Kulemin's down year, IMO, and playing center naturally makes him more valuable. 34 points, +16 for Dubinsky, and 24 goals and 54 points the season prior, vs Kulemin with 28 points and +2, with a high of 30 goals and 57 points last year.

Anisimov is bigger and as good defensively as either Bozak or MacArthur, and he as the potential to be better. I'm not saying either is terrible, but I will take Anisimov over either Bozak or Mac 10 times out of 10.

Erixon and either Colborne or Blacker is close, Finn would be a good comparable too for value (Finn is younger of course), but no one is saying Gardiner. Kadri you clearly value higher then we do though, so in a package like this, I'm fine not asking for him if the other conditions are met.

Toronto's second might be 10 down from New York's 1st, but that's still not equal. 25th overall > beats 35th overall. I also would argue Toronto is a playoff team with Luongo, so honestly, it's likely not top 5 or even top 10, protect it as such, as many other Leafs fans have, if you think differently.

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01-01-2013, 07:34 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
It's a little more than "lacks a starting goalie". At 33 going on 34 this season, is Luongo going to make a difference in the Leafs fortunes? Maybe? If they were a goalie away from being a REAL contender then maybe they pay up big. But they know, just like everyone else does, what his age and contract status are. They also know he wasn't enough to EVER get the Panthers into the playoffs.

This discussion cannot be had meaningfully with people who refuse to consider ALL of the aspects of this situation.
If the Leafs had league average goaltending last season, they'd have been a playoff team. With Luongo, probably a Top 4 seed. It's absolutely the perfect opportunity for the Leafs; it's simply a question of whether Burke realizes it.

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