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Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

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01-01-2013, 03:07 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
All true. So perhaps it makes sense to be patient and allow Burke's picks and young players the same time to develop that it takes everyone else's prospects? Rather than focusing on being in the lottery, let's focus on making every pick count no matter where it is and let's give them ample time to develop.
because the only reason he has prospects in the first place is because of how poorly his team has played. the only time he's gone out and traded for futures are when he expected the team to make or come close to the playoffs only for them to have completely failed. Gardiner/Biggs/Percy/Colborne/lupul probably do not get acquired if things went the way Burke expected. every summer he goes out and adds pieces to this team that he expects to put them in the playoffs and every year it's failed. it really makes me wonder if he knows how to build a team properly, because all we got is a bunch of individuals who don't really play as a team.

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01-01-2013, 03:10 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by PhaNewf View Post
I feel like a member of a patient minority of fans who considers Burke to be the best thing that's happened to the Leafs in a long, long time. In my opinion, Burke was handed the sorriest excuse for an NHL team that I can remember, and it is only by the grace of God that he managed to turn what he inherited into what we have now. I say give him his time, give him an extension, let the man stay and build the team he wants to build. It's going to take time. Everyone with a grain of sense should have known that it would be more than five years to turn that ship around.
but the 07-08 team, the team that burke took over and you feel was the sorriest excuse for an nhl team ever, was actually better than the most recent 11-12 teams under burke.

there's been no improvement under burke from the team he inhereted. in his 4 seasons since 07-08, 3 of those finished with less points, and one had just 2 points more than the sorriest team ever assembled.

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01-01-2013, 03:18 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
because the only reason he has prospects in the first place is because of how poorly his team has played. the only time he's gone out and traded for futures are when he expected the team to make or come close to the playoffs only for them to have completely failed. Gardiner/Biggs/Percy/Colborne/lupul probably do not get acquired if things went the way Burke expected. every summer he goes out and adds pieces to this team that he expects to put them in the playoffs and every year it's failed. it really makes me wonder if he knows how to build a team properly, because all we got is a bunch of individuals who don't really play as a team.
The Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner trade was made to shake up the team and after that they started playing better.

The Kaberle trade for Colborne, 2011 1st round pick (Biggs) and 2012 2nd round pick later traded for Liles was going to happen no matter what. If you remember Kaberle was going to be a UFA and Burke didn't want to loss him for nothing in return since he wasn't going to re-sign him.

As for the Versteeg trade to Philadelphia for a 2011 1st round pick (Percy) and the 3rd round pick, since he wasn't happy with his role in Toronto I say Burke was lucky to at least get the 1st round pick and at the time of that trade they didn't have one.

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01-01-2013, 03:18 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
So acquiring Phaneuf, Kessel, Gardiner, Lupul, Colborne, Ashton, JVR, #22 & #25 2011, is not a step forward. That is 9 1st or former 1st round picks he has acquired in the 3.5 years he has had to work with. That doesn't include Sjostrom, Komisarek, Connolly or Kadri and Rielly.
those acquisitions haven't been a step forward though. you'd have to admit that at this point. the team isn't any better.

we can have our opinions that the team might look better on paper, or might eventually get better, but the fact is it hasn't yet happened. there hasn't been that actual step forward.

any guess as to when it might come?

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Well Ken Holland(isn't he the best?) says it takes 10yrs to see results so why not sit back, quit *****ing, and let the man do his job for at least a few more years.
i see a double standard here.

its ok to applaud the acquisitions you feel are good ones, without giving him 10 years to actually see what happens, yet its not ok to criticize the moves we feel are poor ones until 10 years have expired?

sitting back and letting him do his job for 10 years....shouldn't that include not praising any of these transactions until the 10 year time period is upon us? shouldn't we wait to see the results?

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01-01-2013, 03:25 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
The Beauchemin for Lupul/Gardiner trade was made to shake up the team and after that they started playing better.

The Kaberle trade for Colborne, 2011 1st round pick (Biggs) and 2012 2nd round pick later traded for Liles was going to happen no matter what. If you remember Kaberle was going to be a UFA and Burke didn't want to loss him for nothing in return since he wasn't going to re-sign him.

As for the Versteeg trade to Philadelphia for a 2011 1st round pick (Percy) and the 3rd round pick, since he wasn't happy with his role in Toronto I say Burke was lucky to at least get the 1st round pick and at the time of that trade they didn't have one.
Too bad he didn't cash the pick in, how many players taken after Percy would have been better, or is Percy a better prospect than many think. Why?

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01-01-2013, 03:29 PM
  #206
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Too bad he didn't cash the pick in, how many players taken after Percy would have been better, or is Percy a better prospect than many think. Why?
Last season Percy was injured in the OHL and missed a fair number of games, so he feel behind in his development. However I say let's judge him at what he can do at the NHL level. It's easy to say Burke should have selected Boone Jenner because of what he can do in the OHL and his role on the Canadian Junior team.

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01-01-2013, 03:49 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
It's called a rebuild. It's like you expected all the other teams in the league to stop developing while Toronto got it's **** together. Hello, it doesn't work like that.


So it's failure to have a #1 D-man? Acquired via trade.
So it's failure to have a #2 D-man? AcQuired via trade.
So it's failure to have one of the top 5 most consistant goalscorers in the league? Acquired via trade.
So it's failure to have 2 PPG forwards? Acquired via trade.

Ya he sure has this team headed in the wrong direction. JEsus open your friggin eyes.
Yes.

He does have the team moving in the wrong direction.

Allow me to show you:

2008: 7th last
2009: 7th last
2010: 2nd last (wrong direction)
2011: 9th last
2012: 5th last (wrong direction)

As you can see the team is worse and has been on average worse than JFJ and FLetcher's teams.

This is the wrong direction..becoming a worse team.

This isnt debateable. This is just reality, as others have said before me.

The reality is, this team is worse than the team that was left for Burke.

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01-01-2013, 03:56 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Yes.

He does have the team moving in the wrong direction.

Allow me to show you:

2008: 7th last
2009: 7th last
2010: 2nd last (wrong direction)
2011: 9th last
2012: 5th last (wrong direction)

As you can see the team is worse and has been on average worse than JFJ and FLetcher's teams.

This is the wrong direction..becoming a worse team.

This isnt debateable. This is just reality, as others have said before me.

The reality is, this team is worse than the team that was left for Burke.
That's an awfully myopic view on the structure of the team. While Burke has not moved the team in a positive direction on the scoreboard, he has been GM of the Leafs for a relatively short period of time. In that time he has significantly enhanced the teams future.

But if you are only going to talk standings, then yes, we haven't climbed up the charts you are absolutely right. That is however, just a wrong way to look at how to build a hockey club.

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01-01-2013, 04:01 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by PhaNewf View Post
That's an awfully myopic view on the structure of the team. While Burke has not moved the team in a positive direction on the scoreboard, he has been GM of the Leafs for a relatively short period of time. In that time he has significantly enhanced the teams future.

But if you are only going to talk standings, then yes, we haven't climbed up the charts you are absolutely right. That is however, just a wrong way to look at how to build a hockey club.
The way Brian Burke has structured the team hasnt improved the team in any quantifiable way.

Every team adds to the future every draft, and through trades. The Leafs are no different in that way than any other team.

That's why we analyze the prospects in the system and compare them to how the other GMs have been building for their future, and the consensus has found that Toronto is average

Bringing context to THAT fact now, we see that Toronto has been one of the worst teams in the league thanks to Burke, and despite this, our prospects are only AVERAGE.

Most teams that are one of the worst teams in the league for many years have better than average prospects and pieces on their team.

So, pardon me, but I think I am analyzing quite well with the information we do in fact have.

I don't believe our future is as bright as it should be considering how awful the teams Burke has iced have been.

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01-01-2013, 04:01 PM
  #210
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We seriously need a sticky Burke bashing thread, so all this crap doesn't get regurgitated once every month or so.

The difference between a lottery team, and a team that finishes outside of the bottom 10 is miniscule (4 points). Had Wilson not rode a stone cold Reimer when he had a goalie playing well, we easily would have finished out of the bottom 10. Would people consider that a success, since the team would have done better than in the previous year?

If we weren't going to be contending, I'm content with having picked up Rielly. Thank you, Reimer.

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01-01-2013, 04:06 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
We seriously need a sticky Burke bashing thread, so all this crap doesn't get regurgitated once every month or so.

The difference between a lottery team, and a team that finishes outside of the bottom 10 is miniscule (4 points). Had Wilson not rode a stone cold Reimer when he had a goalie playing well, we easily would have finished out of the bottom 10. Would people consider that a success, since the team would have done better than in the previous year?

If we weren't going to be contending, I'm content with having picked up Rielly. Thank you, Reimer.
Right and similarly, I would have liked to pick up Nugent Hopkins or Landeskog, Hall or Seguin, and Tavares or Duchene throughout the years Burke has been in charge. It's no different than being happy with Rielly. But the fact is its too late and the damage and opportunities have been lost/.

Because that's what the Leafs needed (and still need) and that's who have been within reach of how bad the Leafs are.

But Brian Burke chose to try and aimlessly make the playoffs and not these extremely rare prospects evidenced by his willingness to trade his own firsts away for instant help and spending to the cap with terrible free agent signings.

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01-01-2013, 04:12 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
10th in scoring when Burke took over. 10th in scoring last season.
30th in goals against when Burke took over. 29th in g/a last season.
23rd in the standings when Burke took over. 25th last season.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to HF and the professional nhl scouts that make THN rankings.
All after 4 bottom ten finishes.

The ONLY positive spin you can put on this disgrace of the team is the claim that, while the team doesn't score more goals, our current star players put up more points than our star players from four years ago.
Is that really good enough after four years of bottom 10 finishes?

I just don't understand...
This really is all that needs to be said to arrive at the conclusion that Burke has been a failure so far for this franchise.

Its a clean summary that presents all the facts.

Does Burke need another year...well he hasn't been fired so far so it looks safe to say that we are in for at least another season of him to see if he can for the first time in years actually improve the team.

He has another year. If he fails again, its just another nail in his coffin.

He made his bed here in Toronto. He has to sleep in it inevitably.

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01-01-2013, 04:38 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Right and similarly, I would have liked to pick up Nugent Hopkins or Landeskog, Hall or Seguin, and Tavares or Duchene throughout the years Burke has been in charge. It's no different than being happy with Rielly. But the fact is its too late and the damage and opportunities have been lost/.

Because that's what the Leafs needed (and still need) and that's who have been within reach of how bad the Leafs are.

But Brian Burke chose to try and aimlessly make the playoffs and not these extremely rare prospects evidenced by his willingness to trade his own firsts away for instant help and spending to the cap with terrible free agent signings.
Burke chose not to deliberately suck for X number of years. He's actively tried to make the team better, which is considerably harder than the job his doorknob counterpart in Edmonton is doing. I can only hope that they will fix the tanking exploit that allows retarded GMs to stockpile future stars, so all these tanking threads can go away for good.

So yes, it's absolutely different than being happy for ending up with Rielly. Our GM actually tried to make stuff happen, and would have likely succeeded in improving the team had it not been for the halfwit coach. He didn't just sit back and wait for the welfare cheque to come in.

The difference between 5th last and 10th last is around 4 points. Minor. The difference between 5th last, and dead last is ~15 points. Not so minor. Not even Reimer could have pulled out that level of suck with the amount of games he was given.

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01-01-2013, 04:41 PM
  #214
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He's building this team nicely. Took it a long way from where it was, have a nice pool of prospects and with the upcoming free agency i think he can make a big impact. Definitely re-sign him, just take a look at what he did for Anaheim, Made Vancouver the team they are today, think he can do the same for us.

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01-01-2013, 04:52 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Burke chose not to deliberately suck for X number of years. He's actively tried to make the team better, which is considerably harder than the job his doorknob counterpart in Edmonton is doing. I can only hope that they will fix the tanking exploit that allows retarded GMs to stockpile future stars, so all these tanking threads can go away for good.

So yes, it's absolutely different than being happy for ending up with Rielly. Our GM actually tried to make stuff happen, and would have likely succeeded in improving the team had it not been for the halfwit coach. He didn't just sit back and wait for the welfare cheque to come in.

The difference between 5th last and 10th last is around 4 points. Minor. The difference between 5th last, and dead last is ~15 points. Not so minor. Not even Reimer could have pulled out that level of suck with the amount of games he was given.
He chose not to deliberately suck, yet we still suck in the standings.

He chose not to deliberately suck, and our prospect system is that much worse for it.

Everyone has their own opinion on the method...but the results have been an undeniable failure.

The Leafs' NHL roster has been a failure and the prospects are average because Burke was too stubborn to let the team be as bad as it can be.

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01-01-2013, 06:57 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Why so fiercely loyal to the GM with the worst record in Maple Leaf history? Mind boggling.
Worst than McNamara, Imalch pt 2, Stellick?

Link?

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01-01-2013, 07:18 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhaNewf View Post
I feel like a member of a patient minority of fans who considers Burke to be the best thing that's happened to the Leafs in a long, long time. In my opinion, Burke was handed the sorriest excuse for an NHL team that I can remember, and it is only by the grace of God that he managed to turn what he inherited into what we have now. I say give him his time, give him an extension, let the man stay and build the team he wants to build. It's going to take time. Everyone with a grain of sense should have known that it would be more than five years to turn that ship around.
Now you know how many people don't have a grain of sense.

They should to the Rangers board, and ask that Sather get fired.

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01-01-2013, 07:21 PM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Yes, I really lament the fact JFj was not given the same time as Burke. He's 12 years younger, so he could have stayed with the franchise a decade longer.

For all the time Burke has been a GM he's only won 1 Cup, same as Feaster. Would everyone give Feaster 10 years here with the same results?

Don't listen to what he says, evaluate what he does.
Feaster hasn't won a Cup, AND built another SC Finalist.

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01-01-2013, 07:24 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Worst than McNamara, Imalch pt 2, Stellick?

Link?
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/toronto...eafs-8490.html


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01-01-2013, 07:27 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
2012: 5th last (wrong direction)

This isn't debatable. This is just reality, as others have said before me.

The reality is, this team is worse than the team that was left for Burke.
As I mentioned there are factors in this season. How long during this season were they 5th last for?. Were they in any other position?

Reality: If you watched the season, you should know it wasn't that
black and white.

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01-01-2013, 07:28 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Feaster hasn't won a Cup, AND built another SC Finalist.
I know where Burke won a Cup, but I don't know where he was a SC Finalist.

Hope you aren't suggesting his Canucks went to the Finals, because they didn't.
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/vancouv...ucks-8756.html

Luongo has nothing to do with Burke.

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01-01-2013, 07:29 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
As I mentioned there are factors in this season. How long during this season were they 5th last for?. Were they in any other position?

Reality: If you watched the season, you should know it wasn't that
black and white.
JFj's Leafs were in the playoffs until the Devils lost on the final day of the season, in a shoot-out.

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01-01-2013, 07:37 PM
  #223
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With new ownership...

He may only get this season as his look see.Burke has some glaring question marks like putting Bozak as his number one center and laying all his eggs on Reimer.He wins most of his trades but his fee agent signings were atrocious.He failed to lure anyone of note and overpaid all of the them except MacA.I would say Burke will not have the option to tank and will be needing a true number one center. The mere addition of Luongo will not put this team in the playoffs,so in a way Burke has put himself on the teeters edge,only success will do now,forget about MacKinnon.

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01-01-2013, 07:39 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Worst than McNamara, Imalch pt 2, Stellick?

Link?
Stellick was only there for 1 year.

The Leafs made the playoffs 4 times in 7 years with McNamara at the helm (with some awful win/loss results, I'll grant you).

They made the playoffs 2 times out of 3 years with Imlach pt. 2.

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01-01-2013, 07:40 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Burke chose not to deliberately suck for X number of years. He's actively tried to make the team better, which is considerably harder than the job his doorknob counterpart in Edmonton is doing.
so burke has tried to make the team better, but hasn't made the team any better.

and we're supposed to be applauding him for this? we should be happy with this?

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