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Happy New Year! Now Can We Finally Beat These Guys? OKC @ Houston, Tue. 1/1 4PM MDT

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01-01-2013, 07:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Lowe in Oil View Post
Are you saying Acrobello > Gagner?
No, I am saying that Arco could be < Gagner as a short term fix and that Arco + the trade return for Gagner could be > Gagner.

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01-01-2013, 07:20 PM
  #102
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The lack of push back by our team was disgusting. Where were Byers, Teubert, Plante, Pitlick, and Hamilton in terms of the physical side of the game? The latter 2 need to be sent to Stockton and we need to add some grit to the team. Byers has played a very neutered game ever since we've signed Lizon, you'd think that it'd be the opposite since he doesn't have to be the team's heavyweight anymore.

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01-01-2013, 07:21 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowe in Oil View Post
Are you saying Acrobello > Gagner?
Lol Acrobat-bello.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
No, I am saying that Arco could be < Gagner as a short term fix and that Arco + the trade return for Gagner could be > Gagner.
I just don't feel like trading away from our depthless position at centre. What if Arcobello gets injured? We run with Horcoff? What if we buy out Horcoff with the new amnesty plan? RNH - Belanger - Lander - VV, and the defenceman we get back in the Gagner trade?

Too many questions arise for me, at least. Plus, the tale of the tape suggests Gagner > Arcobello.

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01-01-2013, 07:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I've seen enough to know that I am not a fan of the Barons coaching staff, 5 consecutive losses to the same team at this level with the players that we have = completely unacceptable. Pair that with the complete lack of progress from Pitlick, Hamilton, and Teubert this season and I must admit that I am very underwhelmed by our coaching down there. If the NHL starts up and those players don't find themselves by year end I'm none too pleased if I am Tambellini.
Looks like you're onto it. It only matters what these Barons are showing against good clubs that can play a system and compete. They can kick the stuffing against quite a few teams in this league but how about the better clubs? With this lineup you'd think we'd be able to compete with any club. I kind of worry about the development that way and have all season. We're not getting a lot of wins against premium opponents.

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01-01-2013, 07:25 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
No, I am saying that Arco could be < Gagner as a short term fix and that Arco + the trade return for Gagner could be > Gagner.
Nah, thats dangerous slippery slope thinking. The kind of thing that backwards orgs do trading away their good draft picks. We got value with Gagner. Arco I like, but he's not anywhere close. He'd be a cup of coffee player at the NHL level.

Wise clubs hang onto their drafted depth. You don't often get good return for dealing them. Its a losing game doing that. I can't emphasize this enough, ESPECIALLY with a dunce like Tambo as your horse trader.

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01-01-2013, 07:32 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Lol Acrobat-bello.



I just don't feel like trading away from our depthless position at centre. What if Arcobello gets injured? We run with Horcoff? What if we buy out Horcoff with the new amnesty plan? RNH - Belanger - Lander - VV, and the defenceman we get back in the Gagner trade?

Too many questions arise for me, at least. Plus, the tale of the tape suggests Gagner > Arcobello.
Firstly I don't see either as a long term fixture here so I'll get that out of the way. And while Gagner is bigger, Arco seems to have a bit of pitbull in him and seems pretty strong on his skates and scrappy. I'd prefer that we land a bigger/stronger 2C than either guy, but if Arco would give us even 80% of what Gagner does and we can get a useful piece for Gagner I'd be game.

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Looks like you're onto it. It only matters what these Barons are showing against good clubs that can play a system and compete. They can kick the stuffing against quite a few teams in this league but how about the better clubs? With this lineup you'd think we'd be able to compete with any club. I kind of worry about the development that way and have all season. We're not getting a lot of wins against premium opponents.
5 games in a row we have lost to these guys. Yes they have skill, but our top 3 players are better players than theirs, is it any surprise that guys like Granlund and Zucker play better against us than any other team? Hell Plante wasn't even being used as a pylon tonight and IMO has really stepped up his game, yet we still lose. Right now the only bottom 6 forward that is playing worth a damn is House IMO. A very frustrating outcome yet again against the same team, I suppose this maybe what 'Hawks fans felt like when we trounced them a few times, except that I always expected Houston to be a good team unlike our NHL club last year. Hall once again tried to carry the team on his back especially late, we need more of that from other sources IMO.

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01-01-2013, 07:33 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He's stronger on his skates than Gagner is or at least comparable so I don't buy the "he'd get killed" BS. The biggest differences between the AHL and NHL are speed and skill, player strength is VERY comparable between the two leagues.
He looks stronger on his skates in the AHL, big difference in the NHL.
Arcobello has never been a big difference maker in the AHL until he got put on the top line with highly skilled NHLers, it's skewing his numbers a lot.
Gagner for as many faults as he has, is still a proven NHL caliber top 6 player so to say that Arcobello would be a suitable replacement for Gagner is really far fetched. I sure hope that Oilers management doesn't think this way.
I like Arcobello as an AHLer, possible call up to the NHL in case of injury but to bank on him as an everyday top 6 NHLer is way too risky.

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01-01-2013, 07:34 PM
  #108
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All Wild teams shall eat Oilers teams.
It's ****ing stupid.

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01-01-2013, 07:35 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Nah, thats dangerous slippery slope thinking. The kind of thing that backwards orgs do trading away their good draft picks. We got value with Gagner. Arco I like, but he's not anywhere close. He'd be a cup of coffee player at the NHL level.

Wise clubs hang onto their drafted depth. You don't often get good return for dealing them. Its a losing game doing that. I can't emphasize this enough, ESPECIALLY with a dunce like Tambo as your horse trader.
At this point I'm not into trading Gagner for draft picks, seeing so many of our higher picks from "the magnificent Stu" not even being able to tread water at the AHL level has left me quite jaded as well. If we move Gagner it needs to be for an established player instead of another Curtis Hamilton.

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01-01-2013, 07:38 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
He looks stronger on his skates in the AHL, big difference in the NHL.
Arcobello has never been a big difference maker in the AHL until he got put on the top line with highly skilled NHLers, it's skewing his numbers a lot.
Gagner for as many faults as he has, is still a proven NHL caliber top 6 player so to say that Arcobello would be a suitable replacement for Gagner is really far fetched. I sure hope that Oilers management doesn't think this way.
I like Arcobello as an AHLer, possible call up to the NHL in case of injury but to bank on him as an everyday top 6 NHLer is way too risky.
It really isn't, like I've said strength between the leagues isn't much different, if you think that his skating is sub par, his skills won't translate, he doesn't think the game fast enough, then I'd be fine with that line of thinking. Just based on strength? I'm not buying it at all. It might well be risky, however since I don't see Gagner here long term anyway IMO it at least gives us an option not named Horcoff or Belanger until we can find something worth keeping. Also he was one of the Barons top scorers in the regular season and playoffs last year so it's not like he's been an AHL bum.

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01-01-2013, 07:45 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
It really isn't, like I've said strength between the leagues isn't much different, if you think that his skating is sub par, his skills won't translate, he doesn't think the game fast enough, then I'd be fine with that line of thinking. Just based on strength? I'm not buying it at all. It might well be risky, however since I don't see Gagner here long term anyway IMO it at least gives us an option not named Horcoff or Belanger until we can find something worth keeping. Also he was one of the Barons top scorers in the regular season and playoffs last year so it's not like he's been an AHL bum.
He's not an AHL bum at all but he's not a big enough difference maker to the point that he is too good for the league and ready for a big promotion to a full time NHL top 6 position.

If they are replacing Gagner, it should be with an established NHL player otherwise, we should expect more lottery finishes. It's time for Tambellini to start planning a winning mentality and stop filling positions with players who have never handled such a high level of responsibility before.

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01-01-2013, 07:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
It's ****ing stupid.
Its not by any means accidental.

Its one org stressing system hockey and players HAVING to buy into systems and another hoping to get by on individual talents alone.

In a team sport guess which wins almost every time?

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01-01-2013, 07:51 PM
  #113
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How screwed is this team if the lockout ends.

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01-01-2013, 07:54 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its not by any means accidental.

Its one org stressing system hockey and players HAVING to buy into systems and another hoping to get by on individual talents alone.

In a team sport guess which wins almost every time?
The Wild (and Aeros, it seems) are one of the best at system-based hockey. It seems to work exceptionally well against the Oilers, who, well, often don't have a system.

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01-01-2013, 07:57 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its not by any means accidental.

Its one org stressing system hockey and players HAVING to buy into systems and another hoping to get by on individual talents alone.

In a team sport guess which wins almost every time?
You constantly seem to be overrating the talent on the Barons beyond the top five or six guys. These are the Edmonton Oilers, except now their handful of elite talent is legitimately the best in the league, and their scraps are rookies and AHL, beer league bad rather than bad NHL players. At least the bad NHL players on the Oilers are, for the most part, still NHL players. Bad AHL players are people who should be finding day jobs.

It doesn't just boil down to coaching or systems, it's the fact that beyond the elite talent on the Barons, other teams are better everywhere else.

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01-01-2013, 08:07 PM
  #116
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You constantly seem to be overrating the talent on the Barons beyond the top five or six guys. These are the Edmonton Oilers, except now their handful of elite talent is legitimately the best in the league, and their scraps are rookies and AHL, beer league bad rather than bad NHL players. At least the bad NHL players on the Oilers are, for the most part, still NHL players. Bad AHL players are people who should be finding day jobs.

It doesn't just boil down to coaching or systems, it's the fact that beyond the elite talent on the Barons, other teams are better everywhere else.
We've had as many as 9-10 NHL players in the AHL lineup for some of the games this year. We've had several other players that have played well at this level before. What is the problem then?
I don't buy that other clubs have better depth when we're icing half our NHL team here.

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01-01-2013, 08:13 PM
  #117
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We've had as many as 9-10 NHL players in the AHL lineup for some of the games this year. We've had several other players that have played well at this level before. What is the problem then?
I don't buy that other clubs have better depth when we're icing half our NHL team here.
Who do you count as NHLers other than the big 3, Schulz, Paajarvi, and maybe Hartikainen? They might have NHL experience, but I would not call any of Lander, Plante, Teubert, Vande Velde, and Green NHLers at this point.

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01-01-2013, 08:18 PM
  #118
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Could have guessed this result. Eberle, Schultz, and Hall aren't going to beat a team like the Aeros by themselves

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01-01-2013, 08:37 PM
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Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle are by far the best players in the AHL right now.

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01-01-2013, 08:49 PM
  #120
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Am I reading this right? Schultz didn't have any points?

What a bust.

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01-01-2013, 08:56 PM
  #121
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Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle are by far the best players in the AHL right now.
By a landslide. The AHL has some quality players this year, but a guy who was an NHL all star last season should be the best player in the league, and he has proven he is.

We are now seeing them come into their own. Eberle still played well at the beginning of the season, but you could tell there was going to be an adjustment period, just as he mentioned that he found the NHL to AHL adjustment to be much harder than his transition from juniors to the NHL.

There was little doubt that these guys wouldn't wreck the league once they adapted to this style of play, the only question was how long that adjustment phase would take.

Coming from one in OKC who doesn't get to watch all the Oilers' games, am I crazy to say that I'm most impressed by Eberle out of Hall/Eberle/RNH? I realize he is the oldest and most experienced, but there is not a night that I don't walk away thinking that Eberle has some of the best hands in the world, it's unreal. I realize that RNH is still very raw and will only get better and stronger, but I look at Eberle and still can't believe that he was a guy drafted that late in the 1st round. Is Eberle the best out of the three right now, but the other two have higher ceilings? I guess it is truly hard to gauge them against each other since all excel at different aspects of the game.

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01-01-2013, 09:44 PM
  #122
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I'm a huge Arcobello fan but he's nowhere close to Gagner short term or long term right now. Remember that Gagner is younger than Arcobello. Gagner was a better player at age 18, let alone now.

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01-01-2013, 09:55 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
He's not an AHL bum at all but he's not a big enough difference maker to the point that he is too good for the league and ready for a big promotion to a full time NHL top 6 position.

If they are replacing Gagner, it should be with an established NHL player otherwise, we should expect more lottery finishes. It's time for Tambellini to start planning a winning mentality and stop filling positions with players who have never handled such a high level of responsibility before.
Well I am all for filling the 2C position for the next 10 years but besides a top 5 pick or a Schultz-like gift I'm not sure how it gets done. Who do we have that has enough value to pry away an elite #2C? Do you float Nail for Benn? Would Dallas bite? Who else? Do you go with a RFA offersheet for him or O'Reilly? IMO if we can fill a much needed hole with a guy that isn't in the long term plans you do it regardless of the potential short term effects. Personally I'd be looking at adding lower cost guys like Nick Palmieri and Zac Dalpe as guys that might blossom with the right opportunity.

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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
Hmm...
Alright. I'll bite. It gives us something to do.

So, we trade Gagner (I'm not a fan of that. I'm a believer in HRH Snowpants. Makes me a dreamer).
What do our lines look like this season?
Or we don't trade Gagner. What do our lines look like?

Hall-Arco-Ebs Hall-RNH-Ebs
Yakupov-RNH-Hemsky Yakupov-Gagner-Hemsky
Smyth-Horcoff-Jones Smyth-Horcoff-Jones
Petrell-Belanger-Eager Petrell-Belanger-Eager
Ext: Hartski, Hordi, Paajarvi

Smid-Petry Smid-Petry
Schultz^2 Schultz^2
Whitney - Addition on Blueline Whitney-Peckman/Potter

Dubs/Danis/Khabi

Phew, that took a lot of effort.
Which one looks like better? Note: the addition on the blueline is likely >> Potter/Peckman.

EDIT: I wonder if this is thread worthy.
Why not? It's not like we have a ton of stuff to talk about anyway. I'll take your post and start a thread with it.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
We've had as many as 9-10 NHL players in the AHL lineup for some of the games this year. We've had several other players that have played well at this level before. What is the problem then?
I don't buy that other clubs have better depth when we're icing half our NHL team here.
As I see it right now:

Guys that are surefire NHLers: Eberle, Hall, Schultz, RNH

Guys that have a 50% or better shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: Hartikainen and Paajarvi

Guys that have a 25% or better shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: Lander and Marincin

Guys that have a 10-20% chance shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: House, Vande Velde, Teubert, Deck

Guys that are fading into oblivion in a hurry: Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Fedun

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01-01-2013, 10:04 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post

Guys that have a 50% or better shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: Hartikainen and Paajarvi

Guys that are fading into oblivion in a hurry: Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Fedun
Remember when many of these names (especially the two bolded ones) were getting penciled into everyone's "oil of the future" second line?

Good times.

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01-01-2013, 10:28 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
As I see it right now:

Guys that are surefire NHLers: Eberle, Hall, Schultz, RNH

Guys that have a 50% or better shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: Hartikainen and Paajarvi

Guys that have a 25% or better shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: Lander and Marincin

Guys that have a 10-20% chance shot at playing in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee: House, Vande Velde, Teubert, Deck

Guys that are fading into oblivion in a hurry: Pitlick, Hamilton, Martindale, Fedun
Really...? I would put the bolded in at least the 25% category. Fedun has been playing sound, reliable defence, and Deck has been playing quite smart, albeit with dat Schultz, which likely means his stats and appearance are a tad elevated.

In any case, Fedun can't be any worse, probably much better, than Potter or Peckham in a number 6/7 role.

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