HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-01-2013, 08:47 PM
  #376
Four Boilermakers
Sea Bass said that?
 
Four Boilermakers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Total: 32 teams
Canada: 8/32 (1/4)
USA: 24/32 (3/4)
Conferences: 2
Divisions: 8 (4 per conference)
Playoffs: 16/32 teams (8 per conference)

Four Boilermakers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 08:48 PM
  #377
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
No one denies the leafs have had problems. How have the habs sucked for decades? You know the most successful team in the leagues history ? You want to bad lip the leafs, be my guest. If you want to lump the habs in there based on some imagined anti southern cabal,it might be met with some resistance.
Look, I'm a fan of the Habs, but I'm sorry, they haven't been relevant since since Patrick Roy put on an Avs uni on. Since then they've just been another sad-sack franchise unable to win with anything resembling consistency.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 08:49 PM
  #378
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Where does this put the st Louis blues. Have they sucked for decades as well? Should the fans of st Louis abandon their team as well?
If they stayed home it might light a fire under the butts of Blues management and prod them into putting a winner on ice.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 08:54 PM
  #379
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Sometimes you have to cut your losses. What are the metrics that suggest that these markets are working towards self sustainability? When I ask I hear sell outs ( papered numbers or tickets at cut throat prices), I hear % increase in youth hockey registration when the real numbers are paltry, I hear about the great players these teams have and how well they did on the ice which completely conflates two interdependent but fundamentally distinct ideas. And the grand daddy of them all" we need more time, just keep the checks flowing and shut your mouths and ten somehow miraculously we are going to turn a troubled team into a stable team overnight"
Could this information presented to you also be incorrect?? The media in Canada is misrepresenting some of these markets. IE when Baldy tried to move the Preds there was a rally to save the team. Several of the prospective local owners were interviewed that day by TSN, Globe & mail, ect and were called liars by the media people when they gave the number of attendees for the rally. IE the reporters wanted very low numbers to report and still reported the attendance as less than 5000 even though the rally had over 8000 and over 12000 people came there during the day before the rally. Got any real proof of papers houses? Because the Canadian media distorts any real numbers.

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:08 PM
  #380
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Could this information presented to you also be incorrect?? The media in Canada is misrepresenting some of these markets. IE when Baldy tried to move the Preds there was a rally to save the team. Several of the prospective local owners were interviewed that day by TSN, Globe & mail, ect and were called liars by the media people when they gave the number of attendees for the rally. IE the reporters wanted very low numbers to report and still reported the attendance as less than 5000 even though the rally had over 8000 and over 12000 people came there during the day before the rally. Got any real proof of papers houses? Because the Canadian media distorts any real numbers.
To the bolded part, yes. In fact around that period, Nashville was 'papering the house' by about 1,700 to 1,800 per game:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

MAROONSRoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:16 PM
  #381
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Could this information presented to you also be incorrect?? The media in Canada is misrepresenting some of these markets. IE when Baldy tried to move the Preds there was a rally to save the team. Several of the prospective local owners were interviewed that day by TSN, Globe & mail, ect and were called liars by the media people when they gave the number of attendees for the rally. IE the reporters wanted very low numbers to report and still reported the attendance as less than 5000 even though the rally had over 8000 and over 12000 people came there during the day before the rally. Got any real proof of papers houses? Because the Canadian media distorts any real numbers.
There is ample evidence that some teams literally gave away tickets with booze. You can also look at the average cost of tickets and I believe the next time the habs have a bogo promotion or two tickets two sodas and parking for 50 bucks it will be the first.

For the cost of a leafs ticket how many preds tickets does that buy ? Ive been told that it is comparable ( not equal) to see the leafs in away markets compared to home markets, including travel and lodging. Selling out is good, selling out at cheap prices is not something to crow about.

I don't care how many people come to as rally to support the preds. I'd rather focus on the people who support the press by buying tickets.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:21 PM
  #382
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
To the bolded part, yes. In fact around that period, Nashville was 'papering the house' by about 1,700 to 1,800 per game:

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf
1 those number are from 2006-07 am I to believe that the King and Hawks are still comping over 2200 tickets per game.
2. The exact point I was making about the media distorting numbers as those were called false by the NHL in 2007

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:30 PM
  #383
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
There is ample evidence that some teams literally gave away tickets with booze. You can also look at the average cost of tickets and I believe the next time the habs have a bogo promotion or two tickets two sodas and parking for 50 bucks it will be the first.

For the cost of a leafs ticket how many preds tickets does that buy ? Ive been told that it is comparable ( not equal) to see the leafs in away markets compared to home markets, including travel and lodging. Selling out is good, selling out at cheap prices is not something to crow about.

I don't care how many people come to as rally to support the preds. I'd rather focus on the people who support the press by buying tickets.
Once again the marker changes it's no longer sell out every game it's charge what Toronto does. MLSE is charging the highest ticket in the league, screwing it's fans, and doesn't care if they ever win. Give a team some credit for actually wanting to make the game affordable and caring about it's fans.

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:42 PM
  #384
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Once again the marker changes it's no longer sell out every game it's charge what Toronto does. MLSE is charging the highest ticket in the league, screwing it's fans, and doesn't care if they ever win. Give a team some credit for actually wanting to make the game affordable and caring about it's fans.
There is not a sellout discrepancy between the have and have nots. There's is a REVENUE discrepancy. Having 100 tickets for every home game for 10 bucks leaves money on the table. The McDonalds family four play ( 4 tickets and food for a hundred bucks) leaves money on the table.

The leafs are decidedly not screwing their fans, they could increase ticket prices 10% across the board and the market would still have insatiable demand. Could the press survive under Toronto's prices, no. But by literally giving away the tickets ( and being near the roof for capacity) if you don't raise tickets or other ways to maximize revenues, how do you propose to shorten the gap? Ask the leafs to dramatically reduce tickets despite ever increasing demand in order to allow weaker markets to be more proportionally competitive? In what type of enterprise is this not lunacy?

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:45 PM
  #385
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
1 those number are from 2006-07 am I to believe that the King and Hawks are still comping over 2200 tickets per game.
2. The exact point I was making about the media distorting numbers as those were called false by the NHL in 2007
Gnashville, don't you ever get tired of arguing pretty much the same points over and over again, in one thread after another? It's clear that some people on here will look for every opportunity or argument they can come up with the bash certain franchises. It's like it's their primary goal in life or at least their primary goal on these boards. Being a fan of one of those teams being regularly bashed, it must get awfully annoying.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 01-01-2013 at 10:05 PM. Reason: typo
MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:51 PM
  #386
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
There is not a sellout discrepancy between the have and have nots. There's is a REVENUE discrepancy. Having 100 tickets for every home game for 10 bucks leaves money on the table. The McDonalds family four play ( 4 tickets and food for a hundred bucks) leaves money on the table.

The leafs are decidedly not screwing their fans, they could increase ticket prices 10% across the board and the market would still have insatiable demand. Could the press survive under Toronto's prices, no. But by literally giving away the tickets ( and being near the roof for capacity) if you don't raise tickets or other ways to maximize revenues, how do you propose to shorten the gap? Ask the leafs to dramatically reduce tickets despite ever increasing demand in order to allow weaker markets to be more proportionally competitive? In what type of enterprise is this not lunacy?
So every team should charge those prices and try to pocket 30 million a year? Preds ownership is not trying to make tons of money. Maybe the Leafs should lower there prices 10% every year until the make the playoffs again.

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:52 PM
  #387
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
1 those number are from 2006-07 am I to believe that the King and Hawks are still comping over 2200 tickets per game.
2. The exact point I was making about the media distorting numbers as those were called false by the NHL in 2007
Those numbers are from leaked NHL documents and were never disputed by the league.

MAROONSRoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 09:59 PM
  #388
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAROONSRoad View Post
Those numbers are from leaked NHL documents and were never disputed by the league.
I think Daly said they were incorrect I could be wrong though. Still the media has distorted numbers to push their agenda

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:01 PM
  #389
Gnashville
Never trade Weber
 
Gnashville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Gnashville, don't you ever get tired of arguing pretty much the same points over and over again, in one thread after another? It's clear that some people on here will look for every opportunity or arguing they can come up with the bash certain franchises. It's like it's their primary goal in life or at least their primary goal on these boards. Being a fan of one of those teams being regularly bashed, it must get awfully annoying.
Not really I keep the hope that minds can be opened.

Gnashville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:02 PM
  #390
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Gnashville, don't you ever get tired of arguing pretty much the same points over and over again, in one thread after another? It's clear that some people on here will look for every opportunity or arguing they can come up with the bash certain franchises. It's like it's their primary goal in life or at least their primary goal on these boards. Being a fan of one of those teams being regularly bashed, it must get awfully annoying.
So saying that non traditional markets undervalue their tickets is bashing them but suggesting that the habs and leafs are screwing their fans by, god forbid, charging market value is a matter of civic responsibility?

I'm not bashing fans, this isn't a contest about who has the better fans. This is talking about the viability of markets. If your market had troubles and someone points it out, that not bashing. If your position is that you expect the have markets to subsidies the weaker markets in perpetuity , often to their own detriment, you might actually anticipate some resistance.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:04 PM
  #391
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
I think Daly said they were incorrect I could be wrong though. Still the media has distorted numbers to push their agenda
So four tickets and food for 100 bucks is a piece of Canadian planted propaganda?

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:05 PM
  #392
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
So saying that non traditional markets undervalue their tickets is bashing them but suggesting that the habs and leafs are screwing their fans by, god forbid, charging market value is a matter of civic responsibility?
They're screwing their fans by charging market value but delivering a far BELOW market product for those prices.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:12 PM
  #393
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
So saying that non traditional markets undervalue their tickets is bashing them but suggesting that the habs and leafs are screwing their fans by, god forbid, charging market value is a matter of civic responsibility?

I'm not bashing fans, this isn't a contest about who has the better fans. This is talking about the viability of markets. If your market had troubles and someone points it out, that not bashing. If your position is that you expect the have markets to subsidies the weaker markets in perpetuity , often to their own detriment, you might actually anticipate some resistance.
I'm saying that it's part of "growing the game", to use the well-used refrain. And if people would care to look on the positive side rather than just looking for whatever negative they can find, they'd also see that the Nashville fanbase has been growing. And if there have been some 'minor' setbacks, do any of you ever consider that the general state of the economy can also be a factor, especially in markets that aren't yet fully developed. Now does that mean that the NHL should run away and abandon those markets? Not in my perspective, in which I'm looking at the future of the game, and not simply being conservative and looking backwards and comparing developing markets like Nashville with long-established NHL markets.

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:14 PM
  #394
Mightygoose
I Am Groot
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
They're screwing their fans by charging market value but delivering a far BELOW market product for those prices.
It's all about supply and demand as long as the market is willing to pay at those rates they will.

Always finding it amusing that some think teams like the Leafs and Habs are 'screwing' fans over by not having good teams. Those teams will make allot more $$$$ if they go deep in the playoffs.

It's not a case of teams like the Leafs trying to put a poor product on the ice. They're trying to build a winning team for sure, they're just doing a terrible job at it....something I think we can all agree on

Mightygoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:18 PM
  #395
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
They're screwing their fans by charging market value but delivering a far BELOW market product for those prices.
And Lexus is screwing their customers by selling gussied up camrys. You don't get to unilaterally determine value. The market is the only one that does. If you think the tickets are overpriced, then don't buy them. If other people come to a different conclusion and do buy them ( at a rate that leads to an inability to meet demand) they are by definition not overpriced, but underpriced.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:19 PM
  #396
MoreOrr
B4
 
MoreOrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mexico
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
Always finding it amusing that some think teams like the Leafs and Habs are 'screwing' fans over by not having good teams. Those teams will make allot more $$$$ if they go deep in the playoffs.

It's not a case of teams like the Leafs trying to put a poor product on the ice. They're trying to build a winning team for sure, they're just doing a terrible job at it....something I think we can all agree on
Would have to be something like Canadian broadcast dollars, because they certainly can't fill the arenas any more than they already do, of course other than doing it for more games.

Still can't blame fans in most cities for not spending or not spending top $ if their team isn't being competitive. Being competitive is normally a significant part of that "supply and demand" equation.

MoreOrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:22 PM
  #397
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
And Lexus is screwing their customers by selling gussied up camrys. You don't get to unilaterally determine value. The market is the only one that does. If you think the tickets are overpriced, then don't buy them. If other people come to a different conclusion and do buy them ( at a rate that leads to an inability to meet demand) they are by definition not overpriced, but underpriced.
The problem isn't that Lexus is selling gussied up Camrys, it's that what the Leafs are doing is the equivalent of slapping a Lexus label on a used Yugo.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:27 PM
  #398
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
It's all about supply and demand as long as the market is willing to pay at those rates they will.

Always finding it amusing that some think teams like the Leafs and Habs are 'screwing' fans over by not having good teams. Those teams will make allot more $$$$ if they go deep in the playoffs.

It's not a case of teams like the Leafs trying to put a poor product on the ice. They're trying to build a winning team for sure, they're just doing a terrible job at it....something I think we can all agree on
It's been speculated for quite some time as long as the Leafs don't sign or draft top players the league lets the team owners keep their gold mine. Crap look at the crying now about rev sharing, if the Leafs were good and went deep into the playoffs every year. Heck they'd be forced to pay the entire Yotes payroll every year.



Confucius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:29 PM
  #399
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm saying that it's part of "growing the game", to use the well-used refrain. And if people would care to look on the positive side rather than just looking for whatever negative they can find, they'd also see that the Nashville fanbase has been growing. And if there have been some 'minor' setbacks, do any of you ever consider that the general state of the economy can also be a factor, especially in markets that aren't yet fully developed. Now does that mean that the NHL should run away and abandon those markets? Not in my perspective, in which I'm looking at the future of the game, and not simply being conservative and looking backwards and comparing developing markets like Nashville with long-established NHL markets.
What was the implicit reason to grow the game ? To get that NBA like lucrative contract. How's that going? What if that contract never comes? The TV networks ( the ones paying for these great TV deals) have already shown that they could care less about showing these new market teams. Its going to be north east teams, Detroit, Chicago and the pens because that's what pays the bills.

There is nothing wrong with trying to grow the game, there is something very wrong with simply throwing more money at a poor decision in order to save face. That's not bashing anyone, its simple economics.

Yes the economy is bad, its bad everywhere but the rags and flyers do OK. There will as always be rationalizations for why things did not go as planned. How many can people invoke before they have to wonder whether the business could prosper even if it were perfectly run.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-01-2013, 10:32 PM
  #400
Mightygoose
I Am Groot
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Would have to be something like Canadian broadcast dollars, because they certainly can't fill the arenas any more than they already do, of course other than doing it for more games.

Still can't blame fans in most cities for not spending or not spending top $ if their team isn't being competitive. Being competitive is normally a significant part of that "supply and demand" equation.
Can't blame them either on that matter. Can't speak for the markets south of the 49th parallel, I would gander that there is simply more choice for the sports and entertainment dollar than up here so more discretional can be redirected towards th more competitive team.

Mightygoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.