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Best F-D-G combination ever?

View Poll Results: FDG
Gordie Howe-Red Kelly-Terry Sawchuk 23 7.99%
Dit Clapper-Eddie Shore-Tiny Thompson 0 0%
Wayne Gretzky-Paul Coffey-Grant Fuhr 65 22.57%
Mario Lemieux-Paul Coffey-Tom Barrasso 7 2.43%
Phil Esposito-Bobby Orr-Gerry Cheevers 21 7.29%
Jean Beliveau-Doug Harvey-Jacques Plante 40 13.89%
Steve Yzerman-Nicklas Lidstrom-Dominik Hasek 66 22.92%
Guy Lafleur-Larry Robinson-Ken Dryden 20 6.94%
Bobby Hull-Pierre Pilote-Glenn Hall 4 1.39%
Frank Nighbor-Sprague Cleghorn-Clint Benedict 0 0%
Mark Messier-Brian Leetch-Mike Richter 0 0%
Joe Sakic-Ray Bourque-Patrick Roy 39 13.54%
Dave Keon-Tim Horton-Johnny Bower 2 0.69%
Syl Apps-Red Horner-Turk Broda 0 0%
Howie Morenz-Sylvio Mantha-George Hainsworth 1 0.35%
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-02-2013, 12:35 AM
  #76
brom7
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Voted for Joe Sakic-Ray Bourque-Patrick Roy

Would think about voting for Crosby-Letang-Fleury if it was up there. No representation of this era of hockey.

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01-02-2013, 12:41 AM
  #77
kmad
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Honest crack at ranking top 15 centers:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Jean Beliveau
4. Stan Mikita
5. Howie Morenz
6. Bobby Clarke
7. Mark Messier
8. Bryan Trottier
9. Phil Esposito
10. Newsy Lalonde
11. Joe Sakic
12. Steve Yzerman
13. Sidney Crosby
14. Milt Schmidt
15. Syl Apps

Sakic/Yzerman is a coinflip, and depending on how you value modern hockey vs. old timer hockey, you can certainly make a case of Yzerman being a top ten center of all time.

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01-02-2013, 12:44 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OduyaLaichBoyes View Post
Voted for Joe Sakic-Ray Bourque-Patrick Roy

Would think about voting for Crosby-Letang-Fleury if it was up there. No representation of this era of hockey.
Modern trios don't stand a chance against all of history. I wouldn't even use Crosby-Letang-Fleury as the top one. If we're going with primes, Jagr-Pronger-Bryzgalov is easily better.

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01-02-2013, 12:56 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
You've got it backwards. More teams create a watered down product, not less. Same amount of talent, more teams to spread it out over.
Sorry man but the rampant goonery in the 70's was a direct result of the league expanding by more than double and losing talent to the WHA all while using strictly North America as a talent pool. I already explained this but you both conveniently ignored it. The average NHLer in the 60's and 80's was simply way more skilled. That's why guys like Lafleur fell off so bad in the 80's at ripe old age of 28. They no longer stood out because of the huge influx of skill injected from the WHA merger and the massive talent pool of Europe actually being used.

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01-02-2013, 12:56 AM
  #80
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Voted Wayne Gretzky-Paul Coffey-Grant Fuhr.

Reason? I was going to vote Yzerman-Lidstrom-Hasek because, like many, I thought that there was going to be no-one able to score on them.

With one noted exception.

But you can't go wrong from two of the best teams in history (Oilers fan, the Habs AINEC), Lafleur-Robinson-Dryden|Plante-Harvey-Beliveau

The Boston trio gets let down by goaltending.

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01-02-2013, 01:00 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
They lost a top 10 all time goalie. It completely changed the culture.

They also lost Jacques Lemaire, an extremely underrated piece that was having 50 goal/90 point seasons on their 2nd line. To go from him to Mario Tremblay as your 2C is a massive loss in depth.

It's not the same team.



And they did win. And they did dominate. They did it their way and they didn't have to do it any other way.

I'm not saying the 80's Oilers are a bad team. Matter of fact I think they're #2 all-time and I'd even put them ahead of the 80's Islanders. My point is they're not #1. That's all I'm saying. Not being as good as a team that lost 8 games in 1977 is nothing to be in therapy over.



Well there you go. The Habs have a goal differential that's superior by 100 goals. That's my point.
The 80's oilers lost Gretzky, Coffey AND Fuhr and still won another cup. The 70's Habs lost some big peices but nothing even remotely comparable were dominated by the same Oiler team when they were mostly literally teenagers.

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01-02-2013, 01:01 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Sorry man but the rampant goonery in the 70's was a direct result of the league expanding by more than double and losing talent to the WHA all while using strictly North America as a talent pool.
The goonery in the 70s was a result of people responding to Flyers style hockey.

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01-02-2013, 01:23 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
The goonery in the 70s was a result of people responding to Flyers style hockey.
Stop denying history and watch some games. Half the flyers team would have been in the minors in the 60's or 80's. The average NHLer was simply less skilled. Some of the best players in the world were in the WHA in the 70's and no one seriously used Europe to scout talent.

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01-02-2013, 01:40 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
So they were middle of the pack to above average far from lousy and rediculously good offense more than makes up for that. I personally don't think you could take any team in it's prime through a time machine and have them beat the 80's Oilers. They would dominate skill-wise, dominate physically if you challenged them that way. Dynasty's should have died with the Islanders the Oilers were just that good. Scoring 446 goals and allowing 310 is a similar goal differential. Again the 70's Habs are the only team you can make a case for but your original comment that they "aren't even close" is just flat out rediculous.

Edit: and that's not even taking into account the watered down talent pool you had in the 70's. You had the league more than double in a short span of time plus the WHA essentially all drawing from the talent of North America mostly Canada.
You could probably also throw the 1956 Habs in the conversation for greatest teams. #1 offence and #1 defence (222 GF, 131 GA, that's 1.7 times as many goals for as goals against). And with only 6 teams in the league there's no watering down of talent - every team in the league was decent at least, and most of them were great teams.

This was also the team that caused the NHL to change the power play rule after they scored 3 times on the same minor penalty.

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01-02-2013, 02:10 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
You could probably also throw the 1956 Habs in the conversation for greatest teams. #1 offence and #1 defence (222 GF, 131 GA, that's 1.7 times as many goals for as goals against). And with only 6 teams in the league there's no watering down of talent - every team in the league was decent at least, and most of them were great teams.

This was also the team that caused the NHL to change the power play rule after they scored 3 times on the same minor penalty.
Yep that's fair. Hard to compare those old timers to guys from the modern day because it was such a different game that far back but yeah Beliveau and the gang definately revolutionized things for their time just like the 80's Oilers.

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01-02-2013, 02:51 AM
  #86
kmad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Stop denying history and watch some games. Half the flyers team would have been in the minors in the 60's or 80's. The average NHLer was simply less skilled. Some of the best players in the world were in the WHA in the 70's and no one seriously used Europe to scout talent.
There wasn't enough European talent in the NHL in the early 1980s to make up for the dilution from adding four full teams.

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01-02-2013, 02:54 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
There wasn't enough European talent in the NHL in the early 1980s to make up for the dilution from adding four full teams.
What about all the best WHA players?


There was actually way more teams in the 70's if you consider the WHA was drawing from the same talent pool. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? You keep picking parts of my posts and responding with arguments I've already countered in the parts of my posts you ignore.

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01-02-2013, 03:11 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Ralph View Post
In that season Gretzky and Coffey were #1 and #2 on the team with +71 and +61 respectively

I don't think your argument holds up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Being +71 and +61 has alot to do with putting up 353 points, no?
gretzky's and coffey's +/- were results of offense, not defense, and are perfect examples of the fact that +/- is not at all a measure of defense.

some leagues separate + and -, which is a much better practice than combining them.


most ESGA+SHGA in '86 (aka minuses)
nylund: 137
ellett: 126
gretzky: 120
larson: 119
coffey: 118
ladouceur: 118

+/- of those players
nylund: -32
ellett: -38
gretzky: +71
larson: -31
coffey: +61
ladouceur: -54


Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
True, but I would take Robinson over Harvey.

I think it's overstated how dominant Harvery was both ways just looking at the stats.

From what I've heard he was from a different universe defensively. Offensively, I think he benefits from being one of few defensemen producing in an era that didn't have offensive defensemen.

And it's not like offensive defenseman didn't exist before Harvery's era: Eddie Shore, Ebbie Goodfellow, King Clancy, Art Ross. It certainly wasn't widely accepted and practiced like it is today, but I don't think the concept was as foreign pre-Orr as it's made out to be.
in basically everything i have read from his era, harvey's ability to control the puck and control the tempo of the game was more widely praised than his defensive ability. i have seen some video of harvey, and he looked sort of like a modern d-man playing in '50s.

from HHOF site:
Quote:
Dick Irvin very quickly discovered Harvey's greatest skill – the ability to control the tempo of a game. Methodically, Doug carried the puck, at his own speed, surveying the ice landscape before he committed to any play. At first, it drove his coach and teammates to distraction, until they learned that there was method to Harvey's madness – the other team couldn't score if Doug controlled the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Thats because you don't understand the stats. Back in Harveys day defenseman did not rush the puck or have almost any offensive impact. Harvey was Bobby Orr before anything like that ever existed. Harvey revolutionized the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Again, this is the idea that offensive defensemen didn't exist before Doug Harvey. I just don't buy it.

Rushing the puck was invented by Art Ross in 1905. This is before Harvey was born.
there were offensive d-men in the NHL with harvey and before harvey. doug mohns, flash hollett, bill quackenbush, bill gadsby, etc.

red kelly very likely would have won 4 norris (all before harvey's 7), and was a better offensive d-man than harvey.

Quote:
On the attack, the Red Wings in general play a slam-bang, puck-hounding game, relying on manpower rather than on finesse to wear down their opponents. Their offensive sorties frequently have the advantage of a "fourth forward," the great Red Kelly, perennial All-Star defenseman and a natural play-builder, shown at right (No. 4) as he leads a rush toward the Rangers' goal. Three of the last four seasons, Kelly has ranked among the top ten scorers, the only defenseman to climb into that exalted circle.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...9407/index.htm


it was not very uncommon for d-men to rush the puck, but d-men were much less involved in the offense. ken reardon's rushes were famous, but reardon was not a high scorer.

i have seen video from mid-'50s of bob goldham, a defensive d-man rushing the puck into the offensive zone. tim horton and marcel pronovost were not really offensive d-men, but were known for rushing the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of adding Trottier-Potvin-Smith.
certainly should be in the poll. they would be a decent option b/c of the 2 way ability of trottier and potvin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Then why did the 81 oilers manage to beat them? Did everyone fall off a cliff in 3 years?
habs were not the same after '79. bowman, dryden, lemaire and savard were gone by '81. lapointe was often injured and missed most of '81 playoffs. lafleur had a bad car accident in '81 and was often injured after '79.

plus, players from '70s rarely stayed elite after age 30. for example, trottier and lafleur had their last point per game seasons at age 31 (and scoring was a lot higher, so ppg seasons were not rare).


Last edited by nik jr: 01-02-2013 at 04:02 AM.
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01-02-2013, 03:21 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
plus, players from '70s rarely stayed elite after age 30. for example, trottier and lafleur had their last point per game seasons at age 31 (and scoring was a lot higher, so ppg seasons were not rare).
That's because the league got harder for the reasons I already outlined. The 80's Oilers won a cup without the entire trio in this poll which is substatial more significant than what the Habs lost from 79-81.

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01-02-2013, 05:06 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
What about all the best WHA players?


There was actually way more teams in the 70's if you consider the WHA was drawing from the same talent pool. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? You keep picking parts of my posts and responding with arguments I've already countered in the parts of my posts you ignore.
Cool down man. This is a discussion, not a high school debate. The purpose is to enlighten, not to win.

The WHA was a joke of a league. Its purpose from the start (as is the case with any rebel league) was to be absorbed by the NHL to gain profit for the WHA team owners. The business was failing consistently. Teams would relocate more than once in the middle of a season. The majority of NHL-level talents in the WHA were aging and unable to remain stars on their NHL squads (like Dave Keon, Gordie Howe). Many of the rest just wanted a quick payday. A good chunk of the rest were going to the WHA to gain leverage in contract disputes. And the remainder were kids who were too young to be drafted into the NHL (which at that time had the draft age set at 20, something that was modified to 18 when the WHA merged), but were eligible to be drafted into the WHA, and wanted to chase a couple years of quick professional-grade cash (Gretzky, Messier, Gartner).

Most players who were decent in the WHA were unable to make it happen in the NHL. Most notably Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson - superstars in the WHA, mediocre in the NHL.

Four teams, 20 players on a roster = 80 new roster spots. Find me 80 players that came from the WHA and Europe to find jobs in the NHL for the 1979-80 season and I'll agree with your point that the game was more diluted before the merger.

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01-02-2013, 06:14 AM
  #91
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Very good poll. I have to go with the Edmonton trio, because Wayner was that damn good... but the two Detroit trios are very tempting.

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01-02-2013, 07:41 AM
  #92
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Beliveau-Harvey-Plante

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01-02-2013, 08:46 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OduyaLaichBoyes View Post
Voted for Joe Sakic-Ray Bourque-Patrick Roy

Would think about voting for Crosby-Letang-Fleury if it was up there. No representation of this era of hockey.
I tend to think that people overlook current era players like Crosby, but that trio is not even close to the ones above. Crosby is the best in the World, but so were a lot of forwards up there at the time, Letang is great but he's still only like a top 5-10 defensemen right now and Fleury is a below average starter.

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01-02-2013, 10:22 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
LMAO this is the most biased post ever.
Rankings from HOH polls:

Joe Sakic - 32nd on the 70 best players of all time list

Steve Yzerman - 36th on the 70 best players of all time list

Raymond Bourque - 10th on the 70 best players of all time list and 3rd on the 60 best defenseman of all time list

Nicklas Lidstrom - 17th on the 70 best players of all time list and 5th on the 60 best defenseman of all time list

Patrick Roy - 14th on the 70 best players of all time list and 1st on top goaltenders list

Dominik Hasek - 12th on the 70 best players of all time list and 2nd on top goaltenders list

Next time do your homework before accusing someone of baseless bias.

I repeat anyone selecting the 90's Red Wings trio over the one with Howe in it is out to lunch and he or she shouldn't be taken seriously under any circumstance.

And finally once again Beliveau (3rd best center to ever play the game), Harvey (2nd best defenseman to ever play the game) and Plante (3rd best goalie to ever play the game) is the correct answer here. For those advocating Gretzky, Coffey, Fuhr, sure Gretzky has a big edge on Le Gros Bill, but Harvey has an even bigger one on Coffey and even putting Plante and Fuhr in the same sentance is beyond ridiculous.

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01-02-2013, 10:36 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Steve Yzerman is a reasonable vote for a top 10 center all time. Sakic over Yzerman is not an easy position.
Sakic and Yzerman are at worst (when taking Joe's side) neck and neck. I'd always pick Joe over Stevie Y because he didn't have to sacrify his offensive game to become a great two way player like Yzerman did.

Centers who are easily better than both Yzerman and Sakic:

Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Morenz, Mikita, Trottier, Espo, Clarke and Messier.

And then you have Lalonde, Schmitt, Apps and Malone who can all make a pretty good case that they're batter than Sakic and Yzerman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
Dude.. Yzerman, lidstrom and Hasek are pretty much as a whole.. Even with Sakic, Bourque, Roy.... In fact

Sakic = Yzerman
Bourque =< lidstrom
Roy >= Hasek ( I personally rather have Hasek he's my favorite player of all time along with Bure )
I've never seen a serious hockey analyst put Lidstrom over Bourque.

And I don't think you guys even understand why I brought up the Avs trio when talking about the Wings trio from the 90's, it was just to show how ridiculous it is to pick the Wings trio since the three of them didn't even hit their primes at the same time, or on the same team. They and the Avs trio don't even belong in the same discussion as the Oilers, Habs and Howe's wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasso09 View Post
If youre talking about Career wise, both Sakic and Yzerman are good candidates for top 10... But if we're basing it off of top 10 at their Peak.... Those guys get bumped off by guys like Lindros, Crosby, Foppa and Malkin
No just no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
True, but I would take Robinson over Harvey.

I think it's overstated how dominant Harvery was both ways just looking at the stats.

From what I've heard he was from a different universe defensively. Offensively, I think he benefits from being one of few defensemen producing in an era that didn't have offensive defensemen.

And it's not like offensive defenseman didn't exist before Harvery's era: Eddie Shore, Ebbie Goodfellow, King Clancy, Art Ross. It certainly wasn't widely accepted and practiced like it is today, but I don't think the concept was as foreign pre-Orr as it's made out to be.
And you've lost me at the bolded part of your post. Big Bird doesn't even belong in the same sentence as Doug.

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01-02-2013, 10:47 AM
  #96
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These are some good lineups, but gonna stick with Gretz/Coffey/Fuhr

I mean, seriously, it's Gretzky (not one of the top 10 best ever... THE best ever), Coffey (excellent defensemen) and Fuhr (amazing goalie during his prime). You can make arguements about the defense another line might be able to put up, but who cares? These three will account for more goals than any of these other line ups. More goals than the other team = win.

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01-02-2013, 11:02 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Cool down man. This is a discussion, not a high school debate. The purpose is to enlighten, not to win.

The WHA was a joke of a league. Its purpose from the start (as is the case with any rebel league) was to be absorbed by the NHL to gain profit for the WHA team owners. The business was failing consistently. Teams would relocate more than once in the middle of a season. The majority of NHL-level talents in the WHA were aging and unable to remain stars on their NHL squads (like Dave Keon, Gordie Howe). Many of the rest just wanted a quick payday. A good chunk of the rest were going to the WHA to gain leverage in contract disputes. And the remainder were kids who were too young to be drafted into the NHL (which at that time had the draft age set at 20, something that was modified to 18 when the WHA merged), but were eligible to be drafted into the WHA, and wanted to chase a couple years of quick professional-grade cash (Gretzky, Messier, Gartner).

Most players who were decent in the WHA were unable to make it happen in the NHL. Most notably Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson - superstars in the WHA, mediocre in the NHL.

Four teams, 20 players on a roster = 80 new roster spots. Find me 80 players that came from the WHA and Europe to find jobs in the NHL for the 1979-80 season and I'll agree with your point that the game was more diluted before the merger.
That's not how it worked first off WHA teams were able to protect their best players and prospects so it wasn't 80 new roster spots. I don't know how many players came back from the WHA but I do know 67 left the NHL for the WHA it's first year with more following suit over the years. That's enough right there not even counting the influx of Europeons. It's not difficult to figure out if you simply watch games in the 60's, 70's and 80's the average NHLer is simply more skilled in the 60's and 80's.

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01-02-2013, 11:12 AM
  #98
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How does Boston only have 12 votes? The Colorado and Detroit trios had players not even in their primes with Bourque/Roy and Hasek. Cheevers isn't the best goalie of all time, but he's still probably the second best goalie the Bruins have ever had in their 90 year history. Then you have two guys that owned the league for over half a decade, one of whom is either the best or second best player of all time, depending on who you're asking.

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01-02-2013, 11:13 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
It's because people are voting based on "peak/prime" because it wasn't specified.

And in a poll of peak/prime, that group should win; it has three of the ten best players ever.
then the avs trio should be kicking butt, 2nd best defensemen to ever play the game, best goalie to ever play the game, and could be argued top 10 forward to play the game

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01-02-2013, 12:08 PM
  #100
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LMAO this is the most biased post ever.

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