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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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01-01-2013, 11:48 PM
  #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
I just compiled a list due to needing comparisons. I don't think I was too out of line with any comparison, and I hope people tell me(and show me) I was if they think so.

Kulemin is a very good player, it was noted by many people that the plane crash that tragically took the life of all those in the KHL really effected him negatively because those guys were good friends of his.
Kulemin is not an upgrade on someone like Mason Raymond.

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01-01-2013, 11:53 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is not an upgrade on someone like Mason Raymond.
Offensively and defensively similar, but Kulemin bring size and more physicality at the expense of a bit of skating. Not so much an upgrade as a cross grade that would be an asset. Not something I'd give up a lot for though as it is a cross grade.


Last edited by me2: 01-02-2013 at 12:04 AM.
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01-01-2013, 11:57 PM
  #628
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Kulemin is not an upgrade on someone like Mason Raymond.
Depends on what you are trying to upgrade...physical play, net presence and size would all be upgraded...speed and defense (slightly) would be diminished. Personally I'd prefer to have Kulemin over Raymond, but I wouldn't say its an upgrade that I'd HAVE to have.

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01-01-2013, 11:58 PM
  #629
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Offensively and defensively similar, but Kulemin bring size and more physicality at the expense of a bit of skating. Not so much an upgrade as a cross grade that would be an asset.
That's fair. Except I don't value the difference between the two to be what Roberto Luongo is worse. At best Kulemin and Raymond should be secondary assets flipped for each other as part of a bigger trade.

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01-02-2013, 12:13 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Panthers were inept not just defensively but offensively under the Luongo years. That's the reason why they didn't make the playoffs.
Thanks for the history lesson, the point was they didn't make the playoffs. They didn't look any worse the year after they traded Luongo either. They still missed by a bit. This isn't a knock on Lu, but it was suggested that he could have made a 23-28 point difference last year all by himself.

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01-02-2013, 01:32 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is not an upgrade on someone like Mason Raymond.
If Kulemin can return to being a 20+ goal scorer again he would look very good in any NHL line-up. His speed and size are a very good combo, and he legitimately has a big league shot. He'd look amazing playing with a guy like Kesler, imagine Kesler playing with a 230 pound bull.

It's too bad Kule had an off-year due to many factors, he didn't look right all year and he's usually one of the hardest workers on the team.

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01-02-2013, 08:23 AM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
If Kulemin can return to being a 20+ goal scorer again he would look very good in any NHL line-up. His speed and size are a very good combo, and he legitimately has a big league shot. He'd look amazing playing with a guy like Kesler, imagine Kesler playing with a 230 pound bull.

It's too bad Kule had an off-year due to many factors, he didn't look right all year and he's usually one of the hardest workers on the team.
Kulemin has as many 20+ goal seasons as Raymond does. At least when Raymond scored 25 goals he did so without the aid of an abnormally high shooting percentage, suggesting its more likely that Raymond will one day repeat that performance than Kulemin. Having said that, I don't think either player will score 20+. I see them both as good third line players, one bringing more physicality, and the other bringing more speed.

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01-02-2013, 09:20 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Seconded.

Anisimov - 3rd line shut down center, size, and inconsistent offence with the potential for big improvement.
Erixon - Probably a top 6 on Columbus, high potential.
Dubinsky - Definite top six center, can play wing, very good at both ends of the ice.
A likely late 1st.

Let's hear it.
Not interested, Luongo isn't Nash. You can't say they should have the same value....a goalie and any other position are not comparable.

Lets compare this way.
Age 27 or 33
Contract 6 years or 10

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01-02-2013, 09:26 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not interested, Luongo isn't Nash. You can't say they should have the same value....a goalie and any other position are not comparable.

Lets compare this way.
Age 27 or 33
Contract 6 years or 10
While I agree it isn't fair to make comparables, one could also say:

Cap hit 7.8 or 5.3
The impact of a goalie or a winger on a team
One coming off of a down year while the other bang on his career average.

Just keeping you honest.

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01-02-2013, 09:52 AM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
While I agree it isn't fair to make comparables, one could also say:

Cap hit 7.8 or 5.3
The impact of a goalie or a winger on a team
One coming off of a down year while the other bang on his career average.

Just keeping you honest.
Ok, so tell me this, do you think suppporting teams have an impact on players numbers? What do you think Nash does with the Rangers instead of the Jackets....better..... i think so. Now, ask yourself, does Luongo put up better numbers with the Canucks or Leafs?The impact of any player (goalie or otherwise) is what he brings. I wouldn't give up Kessel's 82 points...and he's a winger.

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01-02-2013, 09:58 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
If the Leafs had league average goaltending last season, they'd have been a playoff team. With Luongo, probably a Top 4 seed. It's absolutely the perfect opportunity for the Leafs; it's simply a question of whether Burke realizes it.


This is all that really needs to be repeated.

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01-02-2013, 10:23 AM
  #637
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This is all that really needs to be repeated.
And i'll say it again, it's not a positive opportunity when the price is astronomically high. Burke admitted last season he'd like an upgrade in goal, he isn't however looking to pay anything close to the original price.

If a contending team was a goalie away...sure. The Leafs are not a Luongo away, so unless it's a deal that makes sense there is no reason to do it.

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01-02-2013, 10:32 AM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
While I agree it isn't fair to make comparables, one could also say:

Cap hit 7.8 or 5.3
The impact of a goalie or a winger on a team
One coming off of a down year while the other bang on his career average.
As long as we ignore the needs and timing of the interested parties, I agree.

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01-02-2013, 10:49 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And i'll say it again, it's not a positive opportunity when the price is astronomically high. Burke admitted last season he'd like an upgrade in goal, he isn't however looking to pay anything close to the original price.

If a contending team was a goalie away...sure. The Leafs are not a Luongo away, so unless it's a deal that makes sense there is no reason to do it.



Aside from working off the hyperbole of "astronomical price", this last paragraph is as dumb a reason to not pursue a fix as there is. Leafs being close to what? Winning a cup? This is a paradox: Don't make big moves until you get close, but then you aren't going to get close if you don't make big moves... So when is the right time?



This league is talent deficient. Less and less quality UFAs make it to July 1. Of those, the top end guys sign based on their own criteria - which TOR hasn't been able to meet. So what changes for TO? This team without a big move or two is going to remain consistently mediocre. Book it.



Bottom line, Burke would be an absolute idiot not to pursue Luongo. One of the worst GMing blunders I can possibly imagine over his entire tenure. Close to the asking price is relative. If he can get Luongo by giving up a 1st and Kadri as the main pieces, disregarding whatever else it would take to get "close", he would be daft not to do it. Period.

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01-02-2013, 10:59 AM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Aside from working off the hyperbole of "astronomical price", this last paragraph is as dumb a reason to not pursue a fix as there is. Leafs being close to what? Winning a cup? This is a paradox: Don't make big moves until you get close, but then you aren't going to get close if you don't make big moves... So when is the right time?



This league is talent deficient. Less and less quality UFAs make it to July 1. Of those, the top end guys sign based on their own criteria - which TOR hasn't been able to meet. So what changes for TO? This team without a big move or two is going to remain consistently mediocre. Book it.



Bottom line, Burke would be an absolute idiot not to pursue Luongo. One of the worst GMing blunders I can possibly imagine over his entire tenure. Close to the asking price is relative. If he can get Luongo by giving up a 1st and Kadri as the main pieces, disregarding whatever else it would take to get "close", he would be daft not to do it. Period.
Burke is pursuing Luongo, he would only be an idiot if he paid what Gillis was asking. When is the right time to make a big move? Maybe once we develop young guys like Gardiner,Rielly and other 1st rounders....oh wait....we're giving those for Luongo....nevermind.

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01-02-2013, 11:05 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Burke is pursuing Luongo, he would only be an idiot if he paid what Gillis was asking. When is the right time to make a big move? Maybe once we develop young guys like Gardiner,Rielly and other 1st rounders....oh wait....we're giving those for Luongo....nevermind.
So according to you, what is the perfect price?

To me ONE of these pieces have to be coming back: 2013 first rounder, Gardiner or Rielly

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01-02-2013, 11:11 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Burke is pursuing Luongo, he would only be an idiot if he paid what Gillis was asking. When is the right time to make a big move? Maybe once we develop young guys like Gardiner,Rielly and other 1st rounders....oh wait....we're giving those for Luongo....nevermind.



Around and around we go LL... Did not mention Gardiner or Reilly. The 1st is definitely there. Kadri is definitely there. If some combination with those two assets as the main pieces is not offered by Burke, he is a fool. Bar none.



You can talk about astonishing price this or premium that, but those are the assets, high or low, that will be key. That is not an astonishing return despite what leafs fans want to bandy about, nor is it gutting the leafs of all their futures.



As for the right time to make a move: It's when you suck and an opposing GM is gifting you an asset that is seldom if ever available. That's the right time. Or, you can wait for a mythical contention window that has a very good chance of never materializing... Burke's call there.

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01-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
So according to you, what is the perfect price?

To me ONE of these pieces have to be coming back: 2013 first rounder, Gardiner or Rielly
This will sound dumb, any team that is interested in Luongo is going to have their "perfect price". If it costs ANY 1 of those 3, then i'm not interested. That doesn't mean that Luongo isn't worth the equivilant from another team, all it means is at this time it would be the wrong move for TO.

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01-02-2013, 11:29 AM
  #644
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Around and around we go LL... Did not mention Gardiner or Reilly. The 1st is definitely there. Kadri is definitely there. If some combination with those two assets as the main pieces is not offered by Burke, he is a fool. Bar none.



You can talk about astonishing price this or premium that, but those are the assets, high or low, that will be key. That is not an astonishing return despite what leafs fans want to bandy about, nor is it gutting the leafs of all their futures.



As for the right time to make a move: It's when you suck and an opposing GM is gifting you an asset that is seldom if ever available. That's the right time. Or, you can wait for a mythical contention window that has a very good chance of never materializing... Burke's call there.
Find me a team that has finished as low as TO has recently that would deal you a 1st+ in this draft for Luongo. If EDM or the Jackets are willing, more power to them. But in a shortened season with a much lower cap a good possibility...good luck. I also find it funny that you feel a "combo" that consists of our 1st, our top NHL ready player and MORE not astonishing. Once again, it comes down to what a team can offer....not what Gillis wants. Yes, Gillis has Luongo, but there is no law which states Burke MUST trade for him.

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01-02-2013, 11:32 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
This will sound dumb, any team that is interested in Luongo is going to have their "perfect price". If it costs ANY 1 of those 3, then i'm not interested. That doesn't mean that Luongo isn't worth the equivilant from another team, all it means is at this time it would be the wrong move for TO.
Respect your opinion on the matter.

I disagree with you on it though...especially if Burke can get Luongo with the 1st and another one of your prospects (not Gardiner or Reilly) as the center piece. In a shortened season, you could probably play Luongo for 40 games and make the playoffs in the East (which makes that pick in the 16-30 range)

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01-02-2013, 11:38 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Find me a team that has finished as low as TO has recently that would deal you a 1st+ in this draft for Luongo. If EDM or the Jackets are willing, more power to them. But in a shortened season with a much lower cap a good possibility...good luck. I also find it funny that you feel a "combo" that consists of our 1st, our top NHL ready player and MORE not astonishing. Once again, it comes down to what a team can offer....not what Gillis wants. Yes, Gillis has Luongo, but there is no law which states Burke MUST trade for him.



Protect it if need be, but it is definitely not off the table. If it is, good luck to Burke. In a full season I would have expected him to get his walking papers, but now he just might get away with another failing season. Maybe.



I fully expect Burke not to pay even that price. To covet his protected 1st and a dubious prospect in Kadri like they are integral to his organization, and he would be all the more idiotic for doing it. It wouldn't surprise me.



And a 1st and Kadri is not astonishing. I find it laughable that you think so. Only on HF is a crap shoot 1st rounder and a suspect prospect worth more than an elite goalie, aged or otherwise. _That's_ what is astonishing. Get some perspective LL.

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01-02-2013, 11:39 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Respect your opinion on the matter.

I disagree with you on it though...especially if Burke can get Luongo with the 1st and another one of your prospects (not Gardiner or Reilly) as the center piece. In a shortened season, you could probably play Luongo for 40 games and make the playoffs in the East (which makes that pick in the 16-30 range)
And if Luongo has his usual slow 1st month of the season? Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped. If we had an 82 game season to ride out some issues...okay. But in the dash for cash 48 game year, i'd rather keep my 1st and run what i have. If we fail, we draft high and still have our assets.

I'd like to say to all, i'm not downgrading Luongo in any way. All of my comments are directly linked to the Leafs situation only. Other teams may be okay with paying top dollar, i just don't think the Leafs should/can.

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01-02-2013, 11:40 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Respect your opinion on the matter.

I disagree with you on it though...especially if Burke can get Luongo with the 1st and another one of your prospects (not Gardiner or Reilly) as the center piece. In a shortened season, you could probably play Luongo for 40 games and make the playoffs in the East (which makes that pick in the 16-30 range)


There's just no point. Every leafs asset, even of the marginal variety, is gold. It cannot be moved for a player that is a long-tenured, high-end member of the NHL. Nope, the long-shots rule here. Clearly, the futures are what it takes to build a winner, not the actual players that help you win in the here and now.

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01-02-2013, 11:42 AM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And if Luongo has his usual slow 1st month of the season? Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped. If we had an 82 game season to ride out some issues...okay. But in the dash for cash 48 game year, i'd rather keep my 1st and run what i have. If we fail, we draft high and still have our assets.

I'd like to say to all, i'm not downgrading Luongo in any way. All of my comments are directly linked to the Leafs situation only. Other teams may be okay with paying top dollar, i just don't think the Leafs should/can.
You might still "draft high" but it likely won't be Burke doing the drafting, and as much as you may not want to give up some decent assets it's not your job thats on the line so it makes it a tad easier for you to have that stance.

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01-02-2013, 11:43 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And if Luongo has his usual slow 1st month of the season? Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped. If we had an 82 game season to ride out some issues...okay. But in the dash for cash 48 game year, i'd rather keep my 1st and run what i have. If we fail, we draft high and still have our assets.

I'd like to say to all, i'm not downgrading Luongo in any way. All of my comments are directly linked to the Leafs situation only. Other teams may be okay with paying top dollar, i just don't think the Leafs should/can.

Top dollar is 5th overall, Gardiner, Bozak and Frattin. That was top dollar. What we are talking about here is well short of that... I wouldn't confuse the situation to now look at a 1st that could be mid-pack and Kadri as _still_ being top dollar. This is the mistake you are making.

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