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The Luongo Thread - "Make it stop, make it stop!"

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01-02-2013, 11:44 AM
  #651
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
You might still "draft high" but it likely won't be Burke doing the drafting, and as much as you may not want to give up some decent assets it's not your job thats on the line so it makes it a tad easier for you to have that stance.

Bingo. Couldn't have put it better. If you're Burke, are you even thinking about the draft at all? Your career possibly ends at the end of this regular season. Anything else is presumption for him.

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01-02-2013, 11:46 AM
  #652
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And if Luongo has his usual slow 1st month of the season? Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped. If we had an 82 game season to ride out some issues...okay. But in the dash for cash 48 game year, i'd rather keep my 1st and run what i have. If we fail, we draft high and still have our assets.

I'd like to say to all, i'm not downgrading Luongo in any way. All of my comments are directly linked to the Leafs situation only. Other teams may be okay with paying top dollar, i just don't think the Leafs should/can.
Okay..so answer me this...with your current team as is, where are you expecting them to finish in a shortened season?

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01-02-2013, 11:46 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Protect it if need be, but it is definitely not off the table. If it is, good luck to Burke. In a full season I would have expected him to get his walking papers, but now he just might get away with another failing season. Maybe.



I fully expect Burke not to pay even that price. To covet his protected 1st and a dubious prospect in Kadri like they are integral to his organization, and he would be all the more idiotic for doing it. It wouldn't surprise me.



And a 1st and Kadri is not astonishing. I find it laughable that you think so. Only on HF is a crap shoot 1st rounder and a suspect prospect worth more than an elite goalie, aged or otherwise. _That's_ what is astonishing. Get some perspective LL.
So, without Luongo the Leafs still suck, thus will draft high and have a chance to get that elusive 1C.....you know, like Seguin. Everyone on this board has called Burke an idiot for the Kessel deal, NOW you call him an idiot for coveting his 1st??

How many times do i need to say it? It doesn't matter what you or Gillis thinks of our prospects, they may be terrible by your standards....but they are the best that WE have.

You want perspective....you are asking a premium for a 33 year old on a long deal with a looming 60 million dollar cap on the horizon. Furthermore....you want 1st round pick's, our top NHL ready guy and more. All the while stating "we can't take large salary back"......perspective indeed.

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01-02-2013, 11:48 AM
  #654
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Okay..so answer me this...with your current team as is, where are you expecting them to finish in a shortened season?
Probably no better than last season....which means we have a shot at a young center in the draft. The issue i have with the shortened year is if we deal our 1st+ and still miss....we have taken a huge step back.

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01-02-2013, 11:49 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Bingo. Couldn't have put it better. If you're Burke, are you even thinking about the draft at all? Your career possibly ends at the end of this regular season. Anything else is presumption for him.
Lol....if any of this BS was true, don't you think he would have made a deal already?

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01-02-2013, 11:52 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So, without Luongo the Leafs still suck, thus will draft high and have a chance to get that elusive 1C.....you know, like Seguin. Everyone on this board has called Burke an idiot for the Kessel deal, NOW you call him an idiot for coveting his 1st??


So what's the answer? Stay in the middle of his "retool"? Trade the 1sts for Kessel, say he's retooling instead of rebuilding, flop, and then start coveting his 1sts like their his children and start a rebuild? Which is it? Is it a retool or a rebuild? From the looks of it, it looks like a retool. As in, he has bought into a retool and has traded 1sts to make it happen. Now there's an opportunity to continue the retool, a prime opportunity, and you are advocating a rebuild strategy?



Think about how counter-intuitive that sounds.



Quote:
How many times do i need to say it? It doesn't matter what you or Gillis thinks of our prospects, they may be terrible by your standards....but they are the best that WE have.

You want perspective....you are asking a premium for a 33 year old on a long deal with a looming 60 million dollar cap on the horizon. Furthermore....you want 1st round pick's, our top NHL ready guy and more. All the while stating "we can't take large salary back"......perspective indeed.



We can take on salary, just not salary dumps - get it? You've lost the plot. You have bought into what other leafs fans have been selling LL. Even by your own admission. It's you that has lost perspective here, no doubt about it.

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01-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Lol....if any of this BS was true, don't you think he would have made a deal already?


No, because he is just that terrible at evaluating goalie talent and paying the price for it.

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01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And if Luongo has his usual slow 1st month of the season? Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped. If we had an 82 game season to ride out some issues...okay. But in the dash for cash 48 game year, i'd rather keep my 1st and run what i have. If we fail, we draft high and still have our assets.

I'd like to say to all, i'm not downgrading Luongo in any way. All of my comments are directly linked to the Leafs situation only. Other teams may be okay with paying top dollar, i just don't think the Leafs should/can.
I agree with this point. For TO, there is far more value to leave things as they are in a short season. They will get a good sense of what their goalies can do and at worst, pick up a good player in the draft. I think Van needs to wait and see which contending playoff team(s) is desperate for a goalie as we head into the deadline.

IMO, TO is out of the mix this year (if we have a season).

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01-02-2013, 11:54 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Lol....if any of this BS was true, don't you think he would have made a deal already?
Why? By waiting he might get a better deal...instead of Gardiner or Reilly, he might be able to give up less...plus they weren't likely to make a deal until they know the CBA landscape.

And you are pretty naive if you don't think Burke is under any pressure to get into the playoffs.

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Old
01-02-2013, 11:59 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by blendini View Post
I agree with this point. For TO, there is far more value to leave things as they are in a short season. They will get a good sense of what their goalies can do and at worst, pick up a good player in the draft. I think Van needs to wait and see which contending playoff team(s) is desperate for a goalie as we head into the deadline.

IMO, TO is out of the mix this year (if we have a season).



Not to mince words, but this is TOR's best shot to make the post-season. A shortened season is perfect for them. Over the long-haul, the cracks started to show and they couldn't keep pace. Over a shortened season, they can rely on bursts of good offense to rack up points. Match that with good-great goaltending, and they don't have a better shot than this year IMO.



It's all in how you see their team performing given the new parameters. I think they'll do better, especially with Carlyle behind the bench. TOR fans fear that they will do worse. Can't blame them, but I think it's an inaccurate assessment. They were right there over 50 games, then the wheels fell off.

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01-02-2013, 12:00 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
So what's the answer? Stay in the middle of his "retool"? Trade the 1sts for Kessel, say he's retooling instead of rebuilding, flop, and then start coveting his 1sts like their his children and start a rebuild? Which is it? Is it a retool or a rebuild? From the looks of it, it looks like a retool. As in, he has bought into a retool and has traded 1sts to make it happen. Now there's an opportunity to continue the retool, a prime opportunity, and you are advocating a rebuild strategy?



Think about how counter-intuitive that sounds.








We can take on salary, just not salary dumps - get it? You've lost the plot. You have bought into what other leafs fans have been selling LL. Even by your own admission. It's you that has lost perspective here, no doubt about it.
You are 100% wrong. I have not bought in to anything, i can think for myself. We have a ton of cap next year giving us room to make moves/signings.

I feel you are upset at myself and other Leaf fans because you see an opportunity to move a long contract for good pieces and can't figure out why we aren't chomping at the bit.

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01-02-2013, 12:02 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Why? By waiting he might get a better deal...instead of Gardiner or Reilly, he might be able to give up less...plus they weren't likely to make a deal until they know the CBA landscape.

And you are pretty naive if you don't think Burke is under any pressure to get into the playoffs.
Because Bleach seems to feel that Burke will only consider his own carreer....a litlle risky to wait...no?

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01-02-2013, 12:06 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You are 100% wrong. I have not bought in to anything, i can think for myself. We have a ton of cap next year giving us room to make moves/signings.

I feel you are upset at myself and other Leaf fans because you see an opportunity to move a long contract for good pieces and can't figure out why we aren't chomping at the bit.




To quote you: Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped





And you haven't lost perspective? I'm a 100% wrong? Or could you be more hypocritical?



What good pieces are you referring to? The 1st is the only piece I regard as good. Petrovic is good. Bjugstad is good. Kadri is _not_ good. And I think even less of Bozak. So what are you referring to? What great haul am I looking forward to? Have I not admitted that I expect VAN to "lose" this deal from the outset?... The Leafs koolaid awaits you LL, drink up.

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01-02-2013, 12:08 PM
  #664
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Probably no better than last season....which means we have a shot at a young center in the draft. The issue i have with the shortened year is if we deal our 1st+ and still miss....we have taken a huge step back.
If that is how you feel, then I can see why you are hesitant to make that trade. I personally think you are selling your team short. I feel without Luongo, you are in that 9-12 range in your conference. With Luongo , you make the playoffs

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01-02-2013, 12:14 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
If that is how you feel, then I can see why you are hesitant to make that trade. I personally think you are selling your team short. I feel without Luongo, you are in that 9-12 range in your conference. With Luongo , you make the playoffs
And likely not only THIS playoffs, but a consistent threat to make the playoffs every year. If they get a top 8-12 pick, thats likely not going to impact the team for 2-3 years...Burke definitely doesn't have the time to see that pan out.

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01-02-2013, 12:20 PM
  #666
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If that is how you feel, then I can see why you are hesitant to make that trade. I personally think you are selling your team short. I feel without Luongo, you are in that 9-12 range in your conference. With Luongo , you make the playoffs


It's fear. Fear about not being able to accurately project one's team. When you see a team compete hard for 50 games, only to have them result in a bizarre train wreck, it can leave you bewildered. The paid management has to figure out which is the real team? The 50 game show, or the trainwreck? If it's the former, there's no logical argument against trading for Luongo, even at a good price. If it's the latter, then dump your assets and stock picks. This middle of the road business is going to ensure TO remains and afterthought for years to come.

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01-02-2013, 12:39 PM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
To quote you: Like i've said, i have admittedly flipflopped





And you haven't lost perspective? I'm a 100% wrong? Or could you be more hypocritical?



What good pieces are you referring to? The 1st is the only piece I regard as good. Petrovic is good. Bjugstad is good. Kadri is _not_ good. And I think even less of Bozak. So what are you referring to? What great haul am I looking forward to? Have I not admitted that I expect VAN to "lose" this deal from the outset?... The Leafs koolaid awaits you LL, drink up.
Yes, i have flipped. I've also stated why. It has nothing to do with what anyone else says, it has everything to do with my own opinion. Bjugstad is good, he also won't be traded for Luongo. Kadri is not good...only PPG in his AHL carreer...but that sucks i guess.

Koolaid my arse....a 60 mil cap (possibly), Luongo's NTC, the length of his deal, the fact he wants FLA first, the possibility of a 48 game season and Luongo's consistant slow starts, the fact we will have a pile of cap space next season to make moves/signings, the fact that it will cost more than i think the Leafs can afford....etc...etc. All reasons i have shifted...on my own, with my own brain.

Tell me Bleach, if the cap goes to 60 mil next season....who takes Luongo?

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01-02-2013, 12:42 PM
  #668
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With the lockout looking like it's going to end....can we put up a seperate prediction thread on the return for Luongo (or Schneider)? I think everyone should go on teh record with their top two outcomes. Eternal love and affection for being right.

Mods.....can we do this now?

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01-02-2013, 12:44 PM
  #669
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
If that is how you feel, then I can see why you are hesitant to make that trade. I personally think you are selling your team short. I feel without Luongo, you are in that 9-12 range in your conference. With Luongo , you make the playoffs
Not only is it how i feel.....it has been backed up by fact. We finished above only MTL and the Isles last season, i think i can say that with adding JVR and McClement....not exactly gonna rocket up. I do think Carlyle makes us better.

Again, if it was a full 82 game year, i'm on board. Gives us time to ride out some bumps.

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01-02-2013, 01:00 PM
  #670
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Gardiner and Rielly are two players that will not be traded for Luongo.

I'm sorry, it just won't happen. His age, salary and NTC are reasons why neither of those players will be traded for him. It would be a different story had luongo been younger, cheaper and have no restrictions.

Gardiner and Rielly would only be used to trade for players like the twins and kesler, but they aren't moving so no point mentioning them

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01-02-2013, 01:02 PM
  #671
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Yes, i have flipped. I've also stated why. It has nothing to do with what anyone else says, it has everything to do with my own opinion. Bjugstad is good, he also won't be traded for Luongo. Kadri is not good...only PPG in his AHL carreer...but that sucks i guess.


The AHL is littered with PPG players that couldn't make the jump. Scoring was never Kadri's issue.



Also, do you know for a fact Bjugstad won't be traded for Luongo? Or do you _know_ anything in trade talks as _fact_? Not report/rumour, but fact. No, because the only way to _know_ for sure is when Luongo actually gets traded.



Quote:
Koolaid my arse....a 60 mil cap (possibly), Luongo's NTC, the length of his deal, the fact he wants FLA first, the possibility of a 48 game season and Luongo's consistant slow starts, the fact we will have a pile of cap space next season to make moves/signings, the fact that it will cost more than i think the Leafs can afford....etc...etc. All reasons i have shifted...on my own, with my own brain.

Tell me Bleach, if the cap goes to 60 mil next season....who takes Luongo?



The bold is the only thing that's changed, and it's changed for everyone. Everything else was constant even at July 1. So basically, your opinion went from offering up more value than almost any Leafs fan would give, to nothing... That's really keeping it even keel there LL. Especially, when a 48 game season doesn't indicate anything in the way of an advantage or disadvantage to the leafs as opposed to an 82 game season. Sure you get to use Luongo more over 82 games, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have a less proportional affect on your teams chances. It's the same number of games for all teams.



And the slow start crap is just garbage. Point me to a season where AV actually had this team going in the preseason, instead of constantly fluctuating the line-up, then I'll be worried about slow-starter Luongo.

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01-02-2013, 01:04 PM
  #672
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Gardiner and Rielly are two players that will not be traded for Luongo.

I'm sorry, it just won't happen. His age, salary and NTC are reasons why neither of those players will be traded for him. It would be a different story had luongo been younger, cheaper and have no restrictions.

Gardiner and Rielly would only be used to trade for players like the twins and kesler, but they aren't moving so no point mentioning them



If Luongo was younger, cheaper and without NTC, he would be in FLA already. Or another team. The market is what it is for TO _because_ Luongo is the age he is, has the contract he has, and can choose where to go. Hell, he'd be in CLB colours right now if that were the case.

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01-02-2013, 01:09 PM
  #673
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I feel like people should say "I doubt [insert players name] will be moved for Luongo" instead of making 100% guaranteed statements. I always get a bit of a laugh since in so many trades that eventually do happen, many times it involves players the fan base could have sworn would "never" have been traded for said player.

Is it highly unlikely Gardiner or Reilly would be traded for Luongo? Probably. But not many people saw Joe Thornton going for Sturm, Primeau and Stuart. From the outside looking in, it's hard to know what is motivating a GM.

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01-02-2013, 01:16 PM
  #674
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The AHL is littered with PPG players that couldn't make the jump. Scoring was never Kadri's issue.



Also, do you know for a fact Bjugstad won't be traded for Luongo? Or do you _know_ anything in trade talks as _fact_? Not report/rumour, but fact. No, because the only way to _know_ for sure is when Luongo actually gets traded.








The bold is the only thing that's changed, and it's changed for everyone. Everything else was constant even at July 1. So basically, your opinion went from offering up more value than almost any Leafs fan would give, to nothing... That's really keeping it even keel there LL. Especially, when a 48 game season doesn't indicate anything in the way of an advantage or disadvantage to the leafs as opposed to an 82 game season. Sure you get to use Luongo more over 82 games, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to have a less proportional affect on your teams chances. It's the same number of games for all teams.



And the slow start crap is just garbage. Point me to a season where AV actually had this team going in the preseason, instead of constantly fluctuating the line-up, then I'll be worried about slow-starter Luongo.
The 48 game year is my main bone of contention. That and the possible 60 mil cap. I would still make a decent offer, i'd just rather run with what we have in a short season. It's not a knock on Luongo at all. I would like to see the landscape of who becomes available if the cap drops. Again, you seem angry because i have changed my mind. The Leafs are not the only option for trade.

Nope...i nor anyone else know anything for fact. My apologies, i should have said i doubt.

The slow start "crap" as you put it comes directly from Canuck fans.

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01-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
I feel like people should say "I doubt [insert players name] will be moved for Luongo" instead of making 100% guaranteed statements. I always get a bit of a laugh since in so many trades that eventually do happen, many times it involves players the fan base could have sworn would "never" have been traded for said player.

Is it highly unlikely Gardiner or Reilly would be traded for Luongo? Probably. But not many people saw Joe Thornton going for Sturm, Primeau and Stuart. From the outside looking in, it's hard to know what is motivating a GM.




Exactly. The only way to _know_ is when it goes down. You can even go so far as saying you have insight into team ownership, that you heard a discussion directly from the GM, or you have tapped the phones of both organizations... but to _know_?? Not possible. Not until it actually happens.




And like you said, it will probably be for someone we haven't even considered or a party we hadn't thought to be involved. It's the nature of things NHL. Before Booth was headed here, I didn't think all it would take would be Samuelsson and Sturm... Nor did I think Ballard would command a 1st _and_ Grabner. You just can't say for sure until it actually happens... but it hasn't stopped anyone.

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