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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

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Old
01-02-2013, 01:53 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by truebluegoalie View Post
It is, especially when you have to consider that it wouldn't be an issue if they didn't go out and get nash.
they won't have to "dismantle" anything. They have a buyout they can use (supposedly in the new CBA). We MIGHT have to lose gaborik, but thats hardly dismantling. They probably could cut somewhere else and keep Gaborik if a few kids (Miller, Mcilrath, etc) can contribute next year.

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01-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #977
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Dismantle is a bit dramatic, no?
Perhaps - but nowadays, since theres a strong foundation in place, this team goes as about 5-7 players go -- with Gaborik being near the top of that list. Maybe its not dismantling when you lose a 40 goal scorer to what equates to a salary dump, but its certainly a significant and painful blow to the roster. And its looking more and more like a reality.

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01-02-2013, 01:59 PM
  #978
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Fair enough, but you'd have to know coming into this that the Rangers and other large market teams were going to suffer no matter the outcome. This is, and always has been, about Bettman trying to atone for the poor performance of the bottom half team's in the NHL.

Alot of opinions from the start were "I dont care what happens, I just want to see hockey." When its become clearer and clearer that the Rangers might have to dismantle their team this summer, its not so cut and dry anymore.
I don't believe they will have to dismantle as much as make a couple of hard decisions on who they feel is more valuable to the roster long-term.

The cap going down forces them to make decisions with several years ahead in mind.

Like I had been saying earlier, about Del Zotto, is he worth sacrificing McDonagh, Stepan, Staal, Girardi, Callahan, Lundqvist?

You have to accept that you will have to make sacrifices in order to keep the bulk of the core together.

Those players i listed above, IMO, are more important.

Gaborik and Del Zotto have value. Rangers could retain the bulk of the core by clearing the cap space necessary, and restock the system at the same time.

McDonagh and Staal are better defensmen, and are on the left side. Girardi is a better player. Del Zotto isn't reliable enough in his own end, nor is he mature enough to sacrifice other players for.

Again, hard decisions. Del Zotto has a ton of potential. But its a position of strength, at the NHL level and in the organization.

Id rather use that chip, retain the rest of the core, use the remaining free cap space to sign a cheaper right handed veteran defenseman short term, as a stop gap, while Skjei and McIlrath develop. OR, maybe Gaborik brings back a young right handed defenseman that can play in the top four.

We will see.

There are interesting things that can be done. Sather needs to get ceative. He's good with trades.

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01-02-2013, 01:59 PM
  #979
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they won't have to "dismantle" anything. They have a buyout they can use (supposedly in the new CBA). We MIGHT have to lose gaborik, but thats hardly dismantling. They probably could cut somewhere else and keep Gaborik if a few kids (Miller, Mcilrath, etc) can contribute next year.
Perhaps my post didn't read correctly (edited) but I agree. Labeling it as a "dismantle" was being dramatic when in an extreme case you are talking about losing one or two players at most.

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01-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #980
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The Rangers will have to sacrifice much of the bottom 6 veterans for cheaper bottom 6 guys and one cheaper D (unless Sauer isn't coming back anyway). Even on a $60m cap, that's it. They wouldn't have to get rid of anyone in their core, including Del Zotto and Gaborik, if they play this right. Given that the issue is RFAs and not UFAs, I actually have faith that Sather would be able to pull it off.

Of course, raising the cap even to $63m eases the pressure. Let's wait and see.

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01-02-2013, 02:05 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The Rangers will have to sacrifice much of the bottom 6 veterans for cheaper bottom 6 guys and one cheaper D (unless Sauer isn't coming back anyway). Even on a $60m cap, that's it. They wouldn't have to get rid of anyone in their core, including Del Zotto and Gaborik, if they play this right. Given that the issue is RFAs and not UFAs, I actually have faith that Sather would be able to pull it off.

Of course, raising the cap even to $63m eases the pressure. Let's wait and see.
I havent crunched the #'s, but I think its going to be nearly impossible to keep Lundqvist, Richards, Nash, and Gaborik on this roster with a $60M cap. I dont care how much tweaking you do elsewhere.

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01-02-2013, 02:10 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I havent crunched the #'s, but I think its going to be nearly impossible to keep Lundqvist, Richards, Nash, and Gaborik on this roster with a $60M cap. I dont care how much tweaking you do elsewhere.
It would be tight for sure. There's $51,841,667 committed in 2013-14 to 16 players (10 F, 4 D, 2 G) with Del Zotto, McDonagh, Stepan unsigned.

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01-02-2013, 02:11 PM
  #983
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Perhaps my post didn't read correctly (edited) but I agree. Labeling it as a "dismantle" was being dramatic when in an extreme case you are talking about losing one or two players at most.
Call my use of dismantle dramatic if you want.

Allow me to call you ignorant for simplifying the loss "of one or two players," when one of the players is a 40 goal scorer and your chief offensive threat.

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01-02-2013, 02:13 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I havent crunched the #'s, but I think its going to be nearly impossible to keep Lundqvist, Richards, Nash, and Gaborik on this roster with a $60M cap. I dont care how much tweaking you do elsewhere.
I demonstrated a few pages back, but I'll do so again right here. Keep in mind that Lindberg, Yogan and Hrivik are place holders. They can be replaced by veterans at similar prices or by other youngsters. Also keep in mind that the bonus cushion will be in place for every season according to the league's proposals. It should give the Rangers the flexibility they need through the season.

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($2.600m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Carl Hagelin ($1.500m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Andrew Yogan ($0.800m)
Marek Hrivik ($0.685m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Micheal Haley ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / Ryan McDonagh ($3.500m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)


CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,886,667; BONUSES: $1,037,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $113,333


Last edited by Tawnos: 01-02-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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01-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Call my use of dismantle dramatic if you want.

Allow me to call you ignorant for simplifying the loss "of one or two players," when one of the players is a 40 goal scorer and your chief offensive threat.
Ignorant? wow, that is taking it to another level isn't it? Sensitive much? Settle down with the insults, no need for them.

When you start talking about losing 3-4 forwards, top 2 dmen, and your vezina goalie, then you can talk to me about the team being dismantled.

As it stands you are talking about MAYBE losing 1 40 goal scorer and POSSIBLY a dman. Does it sting? Yes, no doubt, but that is hardly the dismantling of a team. You want to talk about dismantling a team? Ask a Florida Marlins fan what that actually means.

Dismantle:
: to take to pieces; also : to destroy the integrity or functioning of


Last edited by truebluegoalie: 01-02-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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01-02-2013, 02:22 PM
  #986
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That does assume they can get rid of guys like Rupp and Asham

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01-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I demonstrated a few pages back, but I'll do so again right here. Keep in mind that Lindberg, Yogan and Hrivik are place holders. They can be replaced by veterans at similar prices or by other youngsters. Also keep in mind that the bonus cushion will be in place for every season according to the league's proposals. It should give the Rangers the flexibility they need through the season.

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($2.600m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Carl Hagelin ($1.500m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Andrew Yogan ($0.800m)
Marek Hrivik ($0.685m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Micheal Haley ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / Ryan McDonagh ($3.500m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)


CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,886,667; BONUSES: $1,037,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $113,333
I agree Sather knew the cap could go down and all the RFAs we had coming up I'm sure he took all that into consideration when he traded for Nash

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01-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I demonstrated a few pages back, but I'll do so again right here. Keep in mind that Lindberg, Yogan and Hrivik are place holders. They can be replaced by veterans at similar prices or by other youngsters. Also keep in mind that the bonus cushion will be in place for every season according to the league's proposals. It should give the Rangers the flexibility they need through the season.

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($2.600m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Carl Hagelin ($1.500m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Andrew Yogan ($0.800m)
Marek Hrivik ($0.685m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Micheal Haley ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / Ryan McDonagh ($3.500m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)


CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,886,667; BONUSES: $1,037,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $113,333
That works mathematically, but you have to admit its not very likely.

Kids are either have to grow up and be NHL ready VERY VERY quickly, or Sather will be using his offseason to sign 4-5 bottom 6 guys to <$1M contracts. Thats not even getting into who he'll need to get rid of as well.

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01-02-2013, 02:31 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I agree Sather knew the cap could go down and all the RFAs we had coming up I'm sure he took all that into consideration when he traded for Nash
You give Sather as a pragmatist far too much credit. Im more inclined to believe he had a reply like "We'll deal with that when we get there."

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01-02-2013, 02:34 PM
  #990
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The 60 million dollar figure isn't agreed upon yet. Let's also not forget that you will be able to trade for cap space (3 or 4 million MAX I believe) in the new CBA.

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01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
  #991
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The 60 million dollar figure isn't agreed upon yet. Let's also not forget that you will be able to trade for cap space (3 or 4 million MAX I believe) in the new CBA.
And before we dont forget that, lets also not forget that this is total fiction.

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01-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I demonstrated a few pages back, but I'll do so again right here. Keep in mind that Lindberg, Yogan and Hrivik are place holders. They can be replaced by veterans at similar prices or by other youngsters. Also keep in mind that the bonus cushion will be in place for every season according to the league's proposals. It should give the Rangers the flexibility they need through the season.

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Brad Richards ($6.667m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Chris Kreider ($1.325m) / Derek Stepan ($2.600m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.275m)
Carl Hagelin ($1.500m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.760m) / Andrew Yogan ($0.800m)
Marek Hrivik ($0.685m) / Brian Boyle ($1.700m) / Micheal Haley ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Girardi ($3.325m)
Anton Stralman ($1.700m) / Ryan McDonagh ($3.500m)
Stu Bickel ($0.750m) / Michael Del Zotto ($2.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m)
Martin Biron ($1.300m)


CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,886,667; BONUSES: $1,037,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $113,333
Flexibility? You have a 20 man roster. Where's the room for a spare forward and spare d-man? Hell, even if you wanted to have Bickel play the role of both, that still leaves you with only $113k to sign another d-man, which of course is impossible.

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01-02-2013, 02:43 PM
  #993
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Losing Gaborik would be a HUGE blow to this team. I don't see how anyone can honestly disagree with that. We can argue over whether or not it is a "dismantling" but losing him for a salary dump would undoubtedly be a tremendous problem going forward. For a few years now, NYR has been the team that's got solid D and solid goaltending but falls just short in the offense department. Gaborik has, except for some spells, been the backbone of that "almost good enough" offense. His goal scoring numbers here have been nothing short of incredible. To lose him at this point, effectively replacing him with Nash, a guy who might be able to do what Gaborik has been doing for a few years now, more or less sets this team back the entire Nash trade. Good D, great goaltending, just short on offense.

Also, I think that people need to realize that Sather is the one making the roster decisions. What we'd do isn't terribly important - what Sather would/will do is really what matters. I don't think he'd trade any of the big name guys who sell tickets and win games unless he absolutely had to. He loves big names. He loves players that have that game breaking potential. As much as I might not agree with it, I'm very, very confident that one of Girardi, Staal or McD will be sacrificed to keep Gaborik if it comes down to that. Most likely Girardi or Staal. Girardi has less star power but he's shown that he and McD make a solid NHL first pair. You can't keep 3 first pairing guys and have a first line like Nash- Richards - Gaborik all at once in this league, especially with the cap going down. I don't see Sather losing any of those offensive guys unless he has to. I think he'll move one of those d-men and try to fleece some other GM into taking guys like Asham and Rupp, replacing them with cheaper utility guys.

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01-02-2013, 02:43 PM
  #994
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Flexibility? You have a 20 man roster. Where's the room for a spare forward and spare d-man? Hell, even if you wanted to have Bickel play the role of both, that still leaves you with only $113k to sign another d-man, which of course is impossible.
Bonus cushion provides the flexibility, along with injuries (I believe they put into place some flexibility on how emergency recalls affect the cap). It's a 20-man roster and that sucks, but carrying a 20-man roster is preferable to losing either Gaborik or Del Zotto. Especially since it's only for one season.

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01-02-2013, 02:45 PM
  #995
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And before we dont forget that, lets also not forget that this is total fiction.
Perhaps I missed something, but wasn't that part of the players proposal a few months back which was accepted?

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01-02-2013, 02:46 PM
  #996
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That works mathematically, but you have to admit its not very likely.

Kids are either have to grow up and be NHL ready VERY VERY quickly, or Sather will be using his offseason to sign 4-5 bottom 6 guys to <$1M contracts. Thats not even getting into who he'll need to get rid of as well.
3 bottom 6 guys, not 4-5. And I believe it's more likely than getting rid of MDZ or Gaborik.

Quote:
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That does assume they can get rid of guys like Rupp and Asham
And Pyatt. They'll be able to. Teams are constantly looking for bottom 6 players via trade.

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01-02-2013, 02:48 PM
  #997
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Perhaps I missed something, but wasn't that part of the players proposal a few months back which was accepted?
No proposals have been accepted, certainly not anything from a few months back. I think people are mistaking this for being able to trade guys and retain a portion of their contract. An example is what happened with Jagr just before the last CBA. The Rangers acquired him and the Capitals were paying part of his deal. The portion the Caps were paying for hit their salary cap number while the portion the Rangers were paying for hit ours.

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01-02-2013, 02:50 PM
  #998
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Losing Gaborik would be a HUGE blow to this team. I don't see how anyone can honestly disagree with that. We can argue over whether or not it is a "dismantling" but losing him for a salary dump would undoubtedly be a tremendous problem going forward. For a few years now, NYR has been the team that's got solid D and solid goaltending but falls just short in the offense department. Gaborik has, except for some spells, been the backbone of that "almost good enough" offense. His goal scoring numbers here have been nothing short of incredible. To lose him at this point, effectively replacing him with Nash, a guy who might be able to do what Gaborik has been doing for a few years now, more or less sets this team back the entire Nash trade. Good D, great goaltending, just short on offense.

Also, I think that people need to realize that Sather is the one making the roster decisions. What we'd do isn't terribly important - what Sather would/will do is really what matters. I don't think he'd trade any of the big name guys who sell tickets and win games unless he absolutely had to. He loves big names. He loves players that have that game breaking potential. As much as I might not agree with it, I'm very, very confident that one of Girardi, Staal or McD will be sacrificed to keep Gaborik if it comes down to that. Most likely Girardi or Staal. Girardi has less star power but he's shown that he and McD make a solid NHL first pair. You can't keep 3 first pairing guys and have a first line like Nash- Richards - Gaborik all at once in this league, especially with the cap going down. I don't see Sather losing any of those offensive guys unless he has to. I think he'll move one of those d-men and try to fleece some other GM into taking guys like Asham and Rupp, replacing them with cheaper utility guys.
Good points about the offense and how this team is constructed. Unless you've OD'd on Kreider kool aid, or think Hagelin has some untapped potential, its quite evident that the Rangers are not developing any pure goal scorers. Those have been, and will continually need to be imported via other means.

What is the point of splitting hairs about the definition of "dismantling" and saying its cool when the Rangers would only be losing 1 or 2 roster players - when that roster player is one of the top goal scorers in the NHL? This is a quality vs. quantity argument.

But I suppose that stance is better than putting on a tin foil hat and insisting that the Rangers can keep all of their high-paid imports and field a team with the cap coming in at $60M.

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01-02-2013, 02:50 PM
  #999
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Losing Gaborik would be a HUGE blow to this team. I don't see how anyone can honestly disagree with that.
I haven't seen anyone who has.

If Gaborik does need to moved, it will be a blow. But if he's traded for a cheap 2nd/3rd line tweener then the team will be in roughly the same spot as last season only with Nash instead of Gaborik (expect all the youngins will be 2 years older and wiser). And that team lost the President's trophy on the last day of the season and was six wins away from winning the Stanley Cup.

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01-02-2013, 02:51 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You give Sather as a pragmatist far too much credit. Im more inclined to believe he had a reply like "We'll deal with that when we get there."
My own belief is that Slats is under the impression that Nash can replace Gaborik's 40 goals while being more of a "Torts guy" on the ice. Nash can kill penalties and brings a physical game that Gaborik could never hope to match. He fits the mold of this team better than Gabby does. Get one season of both, then ship off Gabby for a high-end prospect, picks and/or a 2nd line RW.

I don't love the idea, but that's my take.

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