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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
01-02-2013, 02:18 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the plan was to put teams in those markets in order to secure a national TV deal then the plan has failed and therefore Bettman has failed at his own stated goal. In my view extreme damage has been done to the league and the game in the last 20 years. Certainly the lockouts haven't been good. If revenues were at $3.2 billion, what would they be if the league hadn't locked out for 2 going on 2.5 seasons? We don't know. If I remember correctly you claimed in an earlier post that most of the country is too stupid for hockey. I think one could make the argument that the NHL has been to stupid for the country.

I can say that I live in Detroit. A strong hockey market with a strong franchise. I have seen a massive decline in the quality of the team and the NHL in general since the last CBA. They are still competitive relative to the rest of the league they just aren't as good as they used to be as a direct result of the salary cap. Along with the decline in overall quality the interest has also declined. I have been following the Redwings since they were the Deadwings. I watched an owner resurrect the Redwing brand and build it into a profitable machine. Arguably one of the best management staffs in the league succeeded in bringing 4 Stanley Cup Championships in the last 16 years after a 42 year drought. They did so with full support from ownership with a total commitment to winning the Cup. In 1997-98 the fervor for hockey in this town was rabid. There were Redwing flags on almost every car and water cooler conversation often revolved around the Wings. In 2008 it was much less so. I blame the reduction in quality as well as the constant lockouts. Bettman has to go.
No, I didn't say that people are too stupid. I said they didn't get it. They don't bother with it because the rules are so complex....plus the violence and fighting, but these are just my opinions.

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01-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the plan was to put teams in those markets in order to secure a national TV deal then the plan has failed and therefore Bettman has failed at his own stated goal. In my view extreme damage has been done to the league and the game in the last 20 years. Certainly the lockouts haven't been good. If revenues were at $3.2 billion, what would they be if the league hadn't locked out for 2 going on 2.5 seasons? We don't know. If I remember correctly you claimed in an earlier post that most of the country is too stupid for hockey. I think one could make the argument that the NHL has been to stupid for the country.

I can say that I live in Detroit. A strong hockey market with a strong franchise. I have seen a massive decline in the quality of the team and the NHL in general since the last CBA. They are still competitive relative to the rest of the league they just aren't as good as they used to be as a direct result of the salary cap. Along with the decline in overall quality the interest has also declined. I have been following the Redwings since they were the Deadwings. I watched an owner resurrect the Redwing brand and build it into a profitable machine. Arguably one of the best management staffs in the league osucceeded in bringing 4 Stanley Cup Championships in the last 16 years after a 42 year drought. They did so with full support from ownership with a total commitment to winning the Cup. In 1997-98 the fervor for hockey in this town was rabid. There were Redwing flags on almost every car and water cooler conversation often revolved around the Wings. In 2008 it was much less so. I blame the reduction in quality as well as the constant lockouts. Bettman has to go.

I am sorry that you feel things haven't worked out in Detroit since the last work stoppage but the reality is the league has had record revenues the last few years and they did land a national TV contract. So while I would agree that the NHL under Bettman has had it's ups and downs it most defenitley has not been a failure.

As far as the cap goes I can offer a different perspective being a Bruins fan for 25+ years. Our owner, Jeremy Jacobs, was never willing to spend the money necessary to compete with the other big market teams under the old system and the fans suffered for it. But under the cap there is league wide parity and the Bruins have thrived which has revitalized the orginazation in Boston. Under the cap the Bruins are a stronger orginazation and have more fan support than they have had in nearly 20 years. It's been amazing to watch the turnaround. Hockey is back in Boston and its a beutiful thing.

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01-02-2013, 02:43 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I am sorry that you feel things haven't worked out in Detroit since the last work stoppage but the reality is the league has had record revenues the last few years and they did land a national TV contract. So while I would agree that the NHL under Bettman has had it's ups and downs it most defenitley has not been a failure.

As far as the cap goes I can offer a different perspective being a Bruins fan for 25+ years. Our owner, Jeremy Jacobs, was never willing to spend the money necessary to compete with the other big market teams under the old system and the fans suffered for it. But under the cap there is league wide parity and the Bruins have thrived which has revitalized the orginazation in Boston. Under the cap the Bruins are a stronger orginazation and have more fan support than they have had in nearly 20 years. It's been amazing to watch the turnaround. Hockey is back in Boston and its a beutiful thing.

Let's not overlook the role of 'smart' hockey management in building the last B's Cup team. It took a cap system to pry a future Norris Trophy defenseman out of a small market team, and then some astute trades for prospects and picks. They knew when it made sense to spend.

The only Cup winner over the course of that last CBA that didn't have generational talents at the helm, or Norris-caliber defenders quarterbacking the team was probably Carolina, iirc. Oilers goalie injury helped in that instance as well, or Pronger would have two Cups now.

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01-02-2013, 03:03 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I am sorry that you feel things haven't worked out in Detroit since the last work stoppage but the reality is the league has had record revenues the last few years and they did land a national TV contract. So while I would agree that the NHL under Bettman has had it's ups and downs it most defenitley has not been a failure.

As far as the cap goes I can offer a different perspective being a Bruins fan for 25+ years. Our owner, Jeremy Jacobs, was never willing to spend the money necessary to compete with the other big market teams under the old system and the fans suffered for it. But under the cap there is league wide parity and the Bruins have thrived which has revitalized the orginazation in Boston. Under the cap the Bruins are a stronger orginazation and have more fan support than they have had in nearly 20 years. It's been amazing to watch the turnaround. Hockey is back in Boston and its a beutiful thing.
Same for the Rangers. The salary cap era has been a blessing for our team.

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01-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #580
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No, I didn't say that people are too stupid. I said they didn't get it. They don't bother with it because the rules are so complex....plus the violence and fighting, but these are just my opinions.
I'm not sure I buy that considering you apparently need a bachelors degree in statistics in order to properly appreciate baseball.

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01-02-2013, 03:56 PM
  #581
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No, I didn't say that people are too stupid. I said they didn't get it. They don't bother with it because the rules are so complex....plus the violence and fighting, but these are just my opinions.
Haha, can someone please explain to me how the rules of the NHL are more complex than the rules of the MLB and the NFL? I mean they have ex-refs as part of the broadcast teams in the NFL to explain exactly what is happening to the viewers and the MLB? Baseball is so quirky and complex it's ridiculous, tell Bill James baseball is a simple sport.

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01-02-2013, 04:03 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I am sorry that you feel things haven't worked out in Detroit since the last work stoppage but the reality is the league has had record revenues the last few years and they did land a national TV contract. So while I would agree that the NHL under Bettman has had it's ups and downs it most defenitley has not been a failure.

As far as the cap goes I can offer a different perspective being a Bruins fan for 25+ years. Our owner, Jeremy Jacobs, was never willing to spend the money necessary to compete with the other big market teams under the old system and the fans suffered for it. But under the cap there is league wide parity and the Bruins have thrived which has revitalized the orginazation in Boston. Under the cap the Bruins are a stronger orginazation and have more fan support than they have had in nearly 20 years. It's been amazing to watch the turnaround. Hockey is back in Boston and its a beutiful thing.
du,

I agree that the Bruins in their recent incarnation are playing hockey and 'that's its a beautiful thing'.

My thought is that it isn't a "CAP" as much as it is J. Jacobs allowing (or trusting) the Bruins Hockey Management the latitude to spend the money the CAP allows.

I submit, that it's one: more Chirelli and Complany's doing than the CAP. Having a CAP allowed J. Jacobs to feel comfortable enough to ultimately trust the B's Hockey Management team to psend the money on players they felt would improve the team.

Chirelli has spent wisely for the most part and has delivered results.

If all the other owners and J. Jacobs just made a firm decision to control salaries there wouldn't really be a need for a CAP.

Of course, we know the owners are loose cannons and won't control their GM's anymore than they can control their out sized egos and arrogance.

Only time will tell but I can forsee a time 10 yrs in the future when the next CBA battleground will be the elimination of the CAP altogether. especially if the 2 Billion dollar TV deal works out for the NHL.

The issue is spreading the success (read profits) around to emergiing and developing markets that are necessary to make a National TV deal economically feasible.

It worked in MLB and to some respects the NFL and NBA. Salary Cap's weren't the solution, REVENUE SHARING was.

Learn, adapt or die. LOL

F1

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01-02-2013, 04:14 PM
  #583
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The hockey guys are spoiled, most know it...

They do get single rooms, but after being a vet for so many years...it's just the kids that share rooms which really shouldn't be that big a deal...
My friend who makes 35 k a year gets single room when he travels for work, there no way adults should have to share room for work

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01-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #584
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My friend who makes 35 k a year gets single room when he travels for work, there no way adults should have to share room for work
Actually lots of business' and companies will book rooms for multiple employees to save money. Add to that these players arent staying in 3 star hotels. I say put 4 to a room and the insecure thomas types can pay for single rooms out of their pocket

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01-02-2013, 05:34 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Haha, can someone please explain to me how the rules of the NHL are more complex than the rules of the MLB and the NFL? I mean they have ex-refs as part of the broadcast teams in the NFL to explain exactly what is happening to the viewers and the MLB? Baseball is so quirky and complex it's ridiculous, tell Bill James baseball is a simple sport.
There are more rules governing the shootout than there are governing all of baseball. LOL. Cite a quirky baseball rule and I'll cite 2 quirkier hockey rules.

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01-02-2013, 05:46 PM
  #586
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Actually lots of business' and companies will book rooms for multiple employees to save money. Add to that these players arent staying in 3 star hotels. I say put 4 to a room and the insecure thomas types can pay for single rooms out of their pocket
well that won't happen. I have never worked for a company that has put more than one person in a room. they might give you a low limit on the amount you can spend but they won't put two in a room.

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01-02-2013, 05:52 PM
  #587
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There are more rules governing the shootout than there are governing all of baseball. LOL. Cite a quirky baseball rule and I'll cite 2 quirkier hockey rules.
No there isn't but that's beside the point. If you want to continue pretending like football and baseball are simplistic in nature compared to the “complex” sport of hockey and that the complexity of hockey drives away fans looking for a simpler form of entertainment then so be it. I just personally think your perspective is drastically flawed and the theory is laughable at best.


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01-02-2013, 05:52 PM
  #588
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There are more rules governing the shootout than there are governing all of baseball. LOL. Cite a quirky baseball rule and I'll cite 2 quirkier hockey rules.
The balk, the fact that the rules in baseball are literally different in each stadium you play in probably trumps everything though.

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01-02-2013, 05:53 PM
  #589
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*sigh*

Baseball vs Hockey?!

Really people?

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01-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #590
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Massive decline since the last CBA, are you kidding me, the Wings have been a force ongoing, but guys have aged, and without Lidstrom being replaced, who knows...
They have been competitive in the league but the team that won the Cup in 2008 wasn't nearly as good as the teams in 97, 98, or 2002. Lidstrom retired along with his cap hit and they won't even be able to attempt to fill the void because of cap space. Even if they spend to the cap they will be one Nick Lidstrom less talented. The quality is plummeting from the top of the league.

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01-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #591
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du,

I agree that the Bruins in their recent incarnation are playing hockey and 'that's its a beautiful thing'.

My thought is that it isn't a "CAP" as much as it is J. Jacobs allowing (or trusting) the Bruins Hockey Management the latitude to spend the money the CAP allows.

I submit, that it's one: more Chirelli and Complany's doing than the CAP. Having a CAP allowed J. Jacobs to feel comfortable enough to ultimately trust the B's Hockey Management team to psend the money on players they felt would improve the team.

Chirelli has spent wisely for the most part and has delivered results.

If all the other owners and J. Jacobs just made a firm decision to control salaries there wouldn't really be a need for a CAP.

Of course, we know the owners are loose cannons and won't control their GM's anymore than they can control their out sized egos and arrogance.

Only time will tell but I can forsee a time 10 yrs in the future when the next CBA battleground will be the elimination of the CAP altogether. especially if the 2 Billion dollar TV deal works out for the NHL.

The issue is spreading the success (read profits) around to emergiing and developing markets that are necessary to make a National TV deal economically feasible.

It worked in MLB and to some respects the NFL and NBA. Salary Cap's weren't the solution, REVENUE SHARING was.

Learn, adapt or die. LOL

F1
I agree for the most part but the fact remains if there is no cap then there is no Chara in Boston and if there is no Chara there is no cup.

If there was no cap teams WOULD over spend for free agents and Jacobs would refuse. Then the Bruins, other teams with conscious spending owners, and small market teams would suffer. The honor system; in regards to spending, would not work in an uncapped NHL.


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01-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by schminksbro View Post
If the plan was to put teams in those markets in order to secure a national TV deal then the plan has failed and therefore Bettman has failed at his own stated goal. In my view extreme damage has been done to the league and the game in the last 20 years. Certainly the lockouts haven't been good. If revenues were at $3.2 billion, what would they be if the league hadn't locked out for 2 going on 2.5 seasons? We don't know. If I remember correctly you claimed in an earlier post that most of the country is too stupid for hockey. I think one could make the argument that the NHL has been to stupid for the country.

I can say that I live in Detroit. A strong hockey market with a strong franchise. I have seen a massive decline in the quality of the team and the NHL in general since the last CBA. They are still competitive relative to the rest of the league they just aren't as good as they used to be as a direct result of the salary cap. Along with the decline in overall quality the interest has also declined. I have been following the Redwings since they were the Deadwings. I watched an owner resurrect the Redwing brand and build it into a profitable machine. Arguably one of the best management staffs in the league succeeded in bringing 4 Stanley Cup Championships in the last 16 years after a 42 year drought. They did so with full support from ownership with a total commitment to winning the Cup. In 1997-98 the fervor for hockey in this town was rabid. There were Redwing flags on almost every car and water cooler conversation often revolved around the Wings. In 2008 it was much less so. I blame the reduction in quality as well as the constant lockouts. Bettman has to go.
This post is nothing more than a long complaint against parity using the team you're passionate about as an example as to why it doesn't work out for everyone. While the Redwings have presumably dropped down a notch there are a bunch of other teams that have gone up one.

These arguments always tend to hold more weight when discussed in a broader sense like how it impacts the quality of the game and viewership statistics for fans not loyal to a specific team.

Regardless of costs, when revenues go up it usually indicates positive things for a league as fans typically vote with their money

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01-02-2013, 06:06 PM
  #593
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Nope, none of those examples get a set percentage of the revenues as their salary. Many times the salaries take large share to the revenues but in no other business do the employees get a fixed % of the revenues as their salaries.
Every commission salesperson gets a percentage of revenue.

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01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #594
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I am pro-cap..... I think it's improved the NFL, NBA and the NHL. I also believe not having one has really hurt the MLB. And I am a big market fan; the Patriots, Bruins, Celtics and Red Sox could (and in the case of the Sox do) over spend with the best of them.


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01-02-2013, 06:13 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by lush View Post
This post is nothing more than a long complaint against parity using the team you're passionate about as an example as to why it doesn't work out for everyone. While the Redwings have presumably dropped down a notch there are a bunch of other teams that have gone up one.

These arguments always tend to hold more weight when discussed in a broader sense like how it impacts the quality of the game and viewership statistics for fans not loyal to a specific team.

Regardless of costs, when revenues go up it usually indicates positive things for a league as fans typically vote with their money
I simply used the Redwings as an example to demonstrate that in a broader sense parity reduces overall quality especially from the top down.

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01-02-2013, 06:21 PM
  #596
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I simply used the Redwings as an example to demonstrate that in a broader sense parity reduces overall quality especially from the top down.
How is spreading out the talent to all 30 teams reducing the overall quality of the league? If 4-5 teams compete for and sign all the high end developed talent in the league how does that improve the overall quality?

I agree with the above poster in that you; like most anti cap posters, seem to be simply venting frustration in your favorite team’s current dry spell or mediocrity and channeling all that frustration into anti-cap (not being able to simply buy a good team) posts. It’s a selfish and narrow view of the issues at hand and the league as a whole.


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01-02-2013, 07:37 PM
  #597
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No there isn't but that's beside the point. If you want to continue pretending like football and baseball are simplistic in nature compared to the “complex” sport of hockey and that the complexity of hockey drives away fans looking for a simpler form of entertainment then so be it. I just personally think your perspective is drastically flawed and the theory is laughable at best.
OK. It's an easier sport to follow, has all the ingredients that Americans love, the rules are simpler.......yet the sport struggles to gain market traction here......because Vegas has trouble making odds. OK sure.

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01-02-2013, 08:19 PM
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OK. It's an easier sport to follow, has all the ingredients that Americans love, the rules are simpler.......yet the sport struggles to gain market traction here......because Vegas has trouble making odds. OK sure.
It struggles because the MLB, NFL and NBA have a stranglehold on the American sports fan and have for decades; well that in the fact that the NHL has been mismanaged for 20 years. But it could reasonably catch the NBA and may have already done so if not for the past 2 lockouts.

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01-02-2013, 08:28 PM
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Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the NHL is doomed, the game is too complex for American fans, the NHL's system is flawed and destined to fail, the league will eventually collapse on itself and will be reduced to a 10 team league with a cult following, and at last the MLS will over take the NHL in North America.

Either way I am going to continue to root for the Bruins and watch the NHL because that's what I do. I am a hockey fan.

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01-02-2013, 08:34 PM
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Actually lots of business' and companies will book rooms for multiple employees to save money. Add to that these players arent staying in 3 star hotels. I say put 4 to a room and the insecure thomas types can pay for single rooms out of their pocket
Fine but if they snore and I can't sleep, don't chew when I get outraced to the puck by the goalie.

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