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Nikolai Kulemin?

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Old
01-02-2013, 05:02 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I guarantee you Kulemin doesn't score 30 in the NHL next full season.
I also guarantee he doesn't score 7 goals.

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01-02-2013, 05:42 PM
  #177
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Is there any Leaf fans that actually WANT to trade Kulemin? That should indicate to those who don't watch him very much just how valuable his play and 7 goals were for us.

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01-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Let's say Maatta is in the discussion...we would need some sweetener considering his value as a recent 1st rounder and Kulemin's disappointing year.

What would you say to Maatta for Kulemin and Percy?
Percy was the 25th pick in 2011
Maatta was the 22nd pick in 2012

These prospects have roughly the same value. If the Leafs weren't going to give up Kulemin for offers where value was returned why would they trade him for free?

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01-02-2013, 06:18 PM
  #179
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Hard to imagine the Leafs moving Kulemin. Trading him now is going to be selling low. His size, speed and 30 goal season tells you there is a pretty good player there, they won't get enough value if they give up on him now.

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01-02-2013, 06:26 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by vinnybaby View Post
Percy was the 25th pick in 2011
Maatta was the 22nd pick in 2012

These prospects have roughly the same value. If the Leafs weren't going to give up Kulemin for offers where value was returned why would they trade him for free?
I think most would hold Maatta in higher regard, in spite of their respective draft positions. But like I said, it was merely a framework, not a chiseled-in-stone statement.

I certainly don't think Kulemin alone would be enough for Maatta after the season he just had.

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01-02-2013, 06:56 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I think most would hold Maatta in higher regard, in spite of their respective draft positions. But like I said, it was merely a framework, not a chiseled-in-stone statement.

I certainly don't think Kulemin alone would be enough for Maatta after the season he just had.
Respectfully, I don't think Maatta would be enough to land Kulemin. Toronto is swimming in prospects like Maatta, and he's not an overly impressive prospect in his own right -- certainly not impressive enough to land an established top 6/9 player of Kulemin's magnitude. I'm sorry, but Nik's one of the better 3rd liners in the league -- the kind every team needs to be competitive. It just doesn't make sense to trade him AND Percy for a guy who's skillset mirrors Percy's and is further behind in development than Percy as well. That just doesn't make sense from Toronto's POV. At all.

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01-02-2013, 07:01 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Respectfully, I don't think Maatta would be enough to land Kulemin. Toronto is swimming in prospects like Maatta, and he's not an overly impressive prospect in his own right -- certainly not impressive to land an established top 6/9 player of Kulemin's magnitude. I'm sorry, but Nik's one of the better 3rd liners in the league -- the kind every team needs to be competitive. It just doesn't make sense to trade him AND Percy for a guy who's skillset mirrors Percy's. That just doesn't make sense from Toronto's POV. At all.
As a Pens fan, I agree that Matta is not enough to land Kulemin and disagree with your assessment of Matta.

Honestly, now that Staal for Kulemin+ no longer is an option (), I think the only pieces that the Pens have that they might move that the Leafs might want are Bennett, Tangradi, and one of the top defensive prospects. Sutter won't be on the table. I don't think Orpik would be (unless you were talking something like Orpik+something for Kulemin+Gunnarrson).

That said, I'm not sure Shero offers any of that or that Burke even would accept. But, from my perspective, Kulemin is worth it because, IMO, he would hold unique added value in Pittsburgh.

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01-02-2013, 07:05 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Let's say Maatta is in the discussion...we would need some sweetener considering his value as a recent 1st rounder and Kulemin's disappointing year.

What would you say to Maatta for Kulemin and Percy?
No way Pens get Kulemin for anything less than a huge overpayment.

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01-02-2013, 07:08 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
As a Pens fan, I agree that Matta is not enough to land Kulemin and disagree with your assessment of Matta.

Honestly, now that Staal for Kulemin+ no longer is an option (), I think the only pieces that the Pens have that they might move that the Leafs might want are Bennett, Tangradi, and one of the top defensive prospects. Sutter won't be on the table. I don't think Orpik would be (unless you were talking something like Orpik+something for Kulemin+Gunnarrson).

That said, I'm not sure Shero offers any of that or that Burke even would accept. But, from my perspective, Kulemin is worth it because, IMO, he would hold unique added value in Pittsburgh.
Pass on Orpik.

Kulemin won't be moved for anything less than a package for a top line center. Since Staal is gone, the Pens and Leafs don't make good partners (assuming the big guns are off the table).

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01-02-2013, 07:14 PM
  #185
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Kulemin is worth more to the Leafs than any team would like to pay for him.

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01-02-2013, 07:15 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
No way Pens get Kulemin for anything less than a huge overpayment.
I don't disagree that it will take an offer that most here would consider an overpayment, but I disagree that Kulemin only will be moved as part of a package for a number one center. For example, if the return is an overpayment that includes the type of players/prospects who might appeal more than Kulemin to a team willing to move a number one center, then you never know. Kulemin, IMO, holds unique value for the Pens because of the history and chemistry with Malkin. For another team, is he really someone who'd be viewed as a centerpiece in a deal for a top center? I don't think so, and I really, really like Kulemin (objectively speaking, he's probably seen as a second/third line tweener with value along the lines of or probably a little lower than a Chris Kunitz . . . and IMO a guy like Kunitz isn't the centerpiece in a deal for a first line center).

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01-02-2013, 07:15 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Respectfully, I don't think Maatta would be enough to land Kulemin. Toronto is swimming in prospects like Maatta, and he's not an overly impressive prospect in his own right -- certainly not impressive to land an established top 6/9 player of Kulemin's magnitude. I'm sorry, but Nik's one of the better 3rd liners in the league -- the kind every team needs to be competitive. It just doesn't make sense to trade him AND Percy for a guy who's skillset mirrors Percy's. That just doesn't make sense from Toronto's POV. At all.
Then there's really nothing more to discuss. Kulemin is not worth a recent 1st rounder at this point, and suggesting otherwise seems pretty unrealistic.

He has value outside of production, but his defense and physical play really aren't good enough to warrant a 1st rounder on their own. Bigger wingers who score around 30 points, handle about a minute of PK time a game, and notch a little over a hit a game aren't all that rare. I can't remember the last time a player like that yielded a 1st, to be honest. It'd probably be unprecedented.

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01-02-2013, 07:16 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Mojo19 View Post
Kulemin is worth more to the Leafs than any team would like to pay for him.
Now that I think really is the case.

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01-02-2013, 07:18 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Then there's really nothing more to discuss. Kulemin is not worth a recent 1st rounder at this point, and suggesting otherwise seems pretty unrealistic.

He has value outside of production, but his defense and physical play really aren't good enough to warrant a 1st rounder on their own. Big guys who score around 30 points, handle about a minute of PK time a game, and notch a little over a hit a game aren't all that rare.
Rowdy, I think you know he'd hold a little more value to that than Pittsburgh. It's hard to find someone who's a known quantity with Crosby or Malkin, and Kulemin is that with Malkin.

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01-02-2013, 07:23 PM
  #190
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You guys are too busy arguing about Kulemin and Raymond that you completely ignored my trade proposal two or three pages back, which was actually on topic....

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01-02-2013, 07:23 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Rowdy, I think you know he'd hold a little more value to that than Pittsburgh. It's hard to find someone who's a known quantity with Crosby or Malkin, and Kulemin is that with Malkin.
I don't subscribe to the idea that a player should have added value because of what he might do on the Pens with Crosby or Malkin. I sure hope Shero doesn't.

A player is worth what he does on the team he's on, not what he might do here.

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01-02-2013, 07:34 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Then there's really nothing more to discuss. Kulemin is not worth a recent 1st rounder at this point, and suggesting otherwise seems pretty unrealistic.

He has value outside of production, but his defense and physical play really aren't good enough to warrant a 1st rounder on their own. Bigger wingers who score around 30 points, handle about a minute of PK time a game, and notch a little over a hit a game aren't all that rare. I can't remember the last time a player like that yielded a 1st, to be honest. It'd probably be unprecedented.
So Alex Ovechkin is worth less than James Neal eh?

Ovy didn't have a great season by his high standards and Neal had a career year. By your logic, value is based entirely off the season you just had, as opposed to career averages and past peaks in combination with a number of different factors.

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01-02-2013, 07:40 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I think most would hold Maatta in higher regard, in spite of their respective draft positions. But like I said, it was merely a framework, not a chiseled-in-stone statement.

I certainly don't think Kulemin alone would be enough for Maatta after the season he just had.
Kulemin certainly had a poor season offensively. But, the season before that he scored 30 goals and near 60 points. I think most Leaf fans expect a higher output in the next season. Probably 40-50+ points, while being 230lbs, being one of your fastest skaters, best defensive players.

He is more valuable to Toronto than a late first. Especially, when the Leafs have similar calibre defensive prospects such as Percy, Finn and Blacker. Regardless, of your opinion of Stuart Percy.

I like the Penguins prospects, but I don't see a deal to be made. I don't feel comfortable trading Kulemin for a gamble or two.

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01-02-2013, 07:52 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by vinnybaby View Post
Kulemin certainly had a poor season offensively. But, the season before that he scored 30 goals and near 60 points. I think most Leaf fans expect a higher output in the next season. Probably 40-50+ points, while being 230lbs, being one of your fastest skaters, best defensive players.

He is more valuable to Toronto than a late first. Especially, when the Leafs have similar calibre defensive prospects such as Percy, Finn and Blacker. Regardless, of your opinion of Stuart Percy.

I like the Penguins prospects, but I don't see a deal to be made. I don't feel comfortable trading Kulemin for a gamble or two.
I see Matta as a better caliber but agree why the feeling is that it's not enough in terms of caliber to be the centerpiece. Personally, I suspect it would take Shero talking Bennett, Harrington, or a 1st to arouse Burke's interest (and I don't see Shero doing that).

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01-02-2013, 07:55 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't subscribe to the idea that a player should have added value because of what he might do on the Pens with Crosby or Malkin. I sure hope Shero doesn't.

A player is worth what he does on the team he's on, not what he might do here.
Not on what he might do with the Pens but on the history of what he has done (and is doing) playing with Malkin, admittedly in the KHL.

Maybe I've just watched him play a little more or maybe it's a bromance thing (), but IMO Kulemin will have (and has shown) more natural chemistry with Malkin than anyone he's played with since Malone. And, IMO, while he doesn't play with the same snarl, Kulemin would bring in every other way Malone like qualities.

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01-02-2013, 07:56 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
So Alex Ovechkin is worth less than James Neal eh?

Ovy didn't have a great season by his high standards and Neal had a career year. By your logic, value is based entirely off the season you just had, as opposed to career averages and past peaks in combination with a number of different factors.
I never said that. Kulemin's most recent season was his worst, and he has scored closer to 30 points than 50 in 3 of his 4 seasons. His one high-scoring year is taken into account - in fact, it's about the only thing even puts him in the discussion for a 1st rounder.

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Originally Posted by vinnybaby View Post
Kulemin certainly had a poor season offensively. But, the season before that he scored 30 goals and near 60 points. I think most Leaf fans expect a higher output in the next season. Probably 40-50+ points, while being 230lbs, being one of your fastest skaters, best defensive players.

He is more valuable to Toronto than a late first. Especially, when the Leafs have similar calibre defensive prospects such as Percy, Finn and Blacker. Regardless, of your opinion of Stuart Percy.

I like the Penguins prospects, but I don't see a deal to be made. I don't feel comfortable trading Kulemin for a gamble or two.
The discrepancy in value stems from Leafs fans treating the most recent season as an aberration and other fans treating Kulemin as a legitimate gamble considering both his down year and his overall track record.

That being the case, I agree. There's no deal to be made on HF, likely with any fanbase.

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01-02-2013, 08:05 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Not on what he might do with the Pens but on the history of what he has done (and is doing) playing with Malkin, admittedly in the KHL.

Maybe I've just watched him play a little more or maybe it's a bromance thing (), but IMO Kulemin will have (and has shown) more natural chemistry with Malkin than anyone he's played with since Malone. And, IMO, while he doesn't play with the same snarl, Kulemin would bring in every other way Malone like qualities.
The KHL is the KHL though, KIRK. If performance in the KHL were the main determining factor in a player's value to the Pens, Shero should be spending every waking moment in Magnitogorsk trying to convince the league's leading scorer of Pittsburgh's virtues, since he's a skilled RH shot who would cost zero assets to acquire.

If I want to take a flier on a potential scoring winger who's struggling to produce recently, I want to buy low. I'm not going to pay a premium for what he does in the KHL with one of the two best centers in the world. I have a feeling that if you threw Stewart or Setoguchi on a line with Malkin and Mozyakin, they'd produce well too.


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01-02-2013, 08:05 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Last year Kulemin scored SEVEN goals, yet people are acting like he's a top 6 forward. Oh well. Add him to the overrated pile I guess.
In four full years in the league Kuelmin has scored 15, 16, 30, and 7 goals, yet in your mind he is only a 7 goal scorer.

Good job talent evaluator supreme

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01-02-2013, 08:11 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The discrepancy in value stems from Leafs fans treating the most recent season as an aberration and other fans treating Kulemin as a legitimate gamble considering both his down year and his overall track record.

That being the case, I agree. There's no deal to be made on HF, likely with any fanbase.
His play didn't fall off the map this season, just his scoring. He had all markings of a snakebit forward who was still in great shape and doing all the right things on the ice. Very comparable to James Neal who was an offensive black hole right after joining the pens but still played well. It's not like Kulemin pulled a Rene Bourque.

If Pens trade for him they'd probably be looking to put him with Crosby since he plays like a more physical, more skilled Dupuis.

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01-02-2013, 08:19 PM
  #200
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His play didn't fall off the map this season, just his scoring. He had all markings of a snakebit forward who was still in great shape and doing all the right things on the ice. Very comparable to James Neal who was an offensive black hole right after joining the pens but still played well. It's not like Kulemin pulled a Rene Bourque.
Except Neal didn't do it for a whole season. And he was playing with Mark Letestu as his center. And when we acquired him, he was producing well and had a better track record of production than Kulemin.

It's great that Kulemin has value outside of production. But production is what gives him the majority of his value. Like I said, guys with his particulars from last year aren't going to return 1st rounders - probably not guys with his particulars in '07-'08 and '08-'09 either.

But I don't see these discussions going anywhere considering where both sides are at, so I should just drop it, haha. Maatta plus would not fly with me at all.

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