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Nikolai Kulemin?

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Old
01-02-2013, 08:25 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Except Neal didn't do it for a whole season. And he was playing with Mark Letestu as his center. And when we acquired him, he was producing well and had a better track record of production than Kulemin.

It's great that Kulemin has value outside of production. But production is what gives him the majority of his value. Like I said, guys with his particulars from last year aren't going to return 1st rounders.
Neal wasn't lighting it up in Dallas that season next to Richards either.

Kulemin a utility winger, so production does not give him the majority of his value. If he was strictly a tweener like Raymond or MacArthur who doesn't bring much aside from points and ability to hang in a top 6 role and not look too out of place, then yes.

A 1st for a 225lb forward who is one of the fastest skaters in the league, has great defensive instincts, is good on the forecheck, good in the corners, hits consistently, doesn't have stone hands and has some playmaking abilities is a great deal. I wish that's all the leafs wanted for him. Pens certainly didn't get Kunitz for his production and they seem very happy with him.

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01-02-2013, 08:26 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The KHL is the KHL though, KIRK. If performance in the KHL were the main determining factor in a player's value to the Pens, Shero should be spending every waking moment in Magnitogorsk trying to convince the league's leading scorer of Pittsburgh's virtues, since he's a skilled RH shot who would cost zero assets to acquire.

If I want to take a flier on a potential scoring winger who's struggling to produce recently, I want to buy low. I'm not going to pay a premium for what he does in the KHL with one of the two best centers in the world. I have a feeling that if you threw Stewart or Setoguchi on a line with Malkin and Mozyakin, they'd produce well too.
With respect, not everyone in the KHL plays well with Malkin. Maybe I'm 100% off, but I buy the reason Dave King put a 'lesser talent' like Kulemin with Malkin: What Kulemin did on the ice (the give and go's, mucking in the corners, working in front of the net, playing defensively) freed up Malkin to play his game. Plus, there's a level of trust there, and you know perfectly well that with Malkin it's as much about how much he trusts his linemates as the skill level.

Again, I look at a guy like Malone, who IMO was Malkin's most complementary linemate in his career. Best player? No. Best goal scorer or set up man? No. Best defensive player? No. But, look at the ingredients: Worked the give and go. Played defense. Forechecked hard. Could muck it up and win pucks on the boards in the offensive zone. Helped sustain prolonged offensive zone pressure. Instinctively understood when to give Malkin space and when to support. Drove the net consistently to set up screens for Malkin's wrist shot. IMO, the scoring was a bonus with Malone. How he helped Malkin do what he does best meant a lot more.

Kulemin brings the same attributes to the table. Less snarl, but probably better in a couple of ways. I think he'd give you more on a line with Malkin and Neal than Kunitz did, but maybe that's just me. And, that's really the thing for me: A Stewart or a Seto may have more talent in general, but Kulemin is the infinitely better complement for Malkin specifically.

Nobody is going to pay a Kulemin the 30 goal scorer price. And, Burke isn't going to sell at the Kulemin the 7 goal scorer price. But, my feeling-- and I understand if and why some may disagree-- is that he's worth the value one assigns to Kunitz or might have assigned to Malone in January 2008 (before he went to the next level on a line with Malkin). That costs you a legitimately good chip (one that gives you pause to move), not Tangradi and a 2nd.

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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Neal wasn't lighting it up in Dallas that season next to Richards either.

Kulemin a utility winger, so production does not give him the majority of his value. If he was strictly a tweener like Raymond or MacArthur who doesn't bring much aside from points and ability to hang in a top 6 role and not look too out of place, then yes.

A 1st for a 225lb forward who is one of the fastest skaters in the league, has great defensive instincts, is good on the forecheck, good in the corners, hits consistently, doesn't have stone hands and has some playmaking abilities is a great deal. I wish that's all the leafs wanted for him. Pens certainly didn't get Kunitz for his production and they seem very happy with him.
Kunitz is a really good reference point. Now, his value, when the Pens got him, was higher than Kulemin's is now but a perhaps little lower than Kulemin's value a year ago. BUT, his added value is how his north-south forechecking style complements Crosby (he worked with Malkin and Neal, but he's a far more natural complement with Crosby). I see Kulemin having a similar impact with Malkin. The points will be a bonus.

While I doubt that Shero would do it (and the mere suggestion would raise the ire of most Pens fans), I'd put Bennett or Harrington on the table, because I think that's what it takes to get Burke interested. Sometimes, you've got to give to get.


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01-02-2013, 08:30 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Neal wasn't lighting it up in Dallas that season next to Richards either.

Kulemin a utility winger, so production does not give him the majority of his value. If he was strictly a tweener like Raymond or MacArthur who doesn't bring much aside from points and ability to hang in a top 6 role and not look too out of place, then yes.

A 1st for a 225lb forward who is one of the fastest skaters in the league, has great defensive instincts, is good on the forecheck, good in the corners, hits consistently, doesn't have stone hands and has some playmaking abilities is a great deal. I wish that's all the leafs wanted for him.
Neal was on pace for Kulemin's career best that year. Calculate for yourself: 21 goals in 59 games.

Kulemin scored 30 goals a couple years ago. No 30 goal winger whose all-around game consists of a minute of PK time a game and a little over a hit per game is going to derive most of his value from his non-productive aspects. Daniel Winnik can Kulemin's non-productive aspects. He's not worth a 1st rounder.


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01-02-2013, 08:32 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Let's say Maatta is in the discussion...we would need some sweetener considering his value as a recent 1st rounder and Kulemin's disappointing year.

What would you say to Maatta for Kulemin and Percy?
I'd want a prospect coming back to replace Kule if we are replacing Maata for you.

Kulemin + Percy for Bennett + Maata.

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01-02-2013, 08:36 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
I'd want a prospect coming back to replace Kule if we are replacing Maata for you.

Kulemin + Percy for Bennett + Maata.
You still shouldn't do it.

The chance one of those prospects are half as good as Kulemin isn't likely.

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01-02-2013, 09:03 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
With respect, not everyone in the KHL plays well with Malkin. Maybe I'm 100% off, but I buy the reason Dave King put a 'lesser talent' like Kulemin with Malkin: What Kulemin did on the ice (the give and go's, mucking in the corners, working in front of the net, playing defensively) freed up Malkin to play his game. Plus, there's a level of trust there, and you know perfectly well that with Malkin it's as much about how much he trusts his linemates as the skill level.
I didn't say they did, KIRK. Good to see you around here again, by the way.

I said that there's a guy who's performing much better with Malkin who'd cost nothing to acquire, so if chemistry with Malkin in the KHL is paramount, that should be our focus. I also said that there are other potential targets around the NHL who may well have performed as well as Kulemin did with Malkin if given the opportunity. Not everyone is so fortunate.

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Again, I look at a guy like Malone, who IMO was Malkin's most complementary linemate in his career. Best player? No. Best goal scorer or set up man? No. Best defensive player? No. But, look at the ingredients: Worked the give and go. Played defense. Forechecked hard. Could muck it up and win pucks on the boards in the offensive zone. Helped sustain prolonged offensive zone pressure. Instinctively understood when to give Malkin space and when to support. Drove the net consistently to set up screens for Malkin's wrist shot. IMO, the scoring was a bonus with Malone. How he helped Malkin do what he does best meant a lot more.
Malkin has only played with 4 wingers that most people would consider legitimate scoring line options - Malone, Sykora, Kunitz, and Neal. All were very different, and all thrived. Malkin doesn't need a specific kind of scoring winger, he just needs a non-plug.

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Kunitz is a really good reference point. Now, his value, when the Pens got him, was higher than Kulemin's is now but a perhaps little lower than Kulemin's value a year ago. BUT, his added value is how his north-south forechecking style complements Crosby (he worked with Malkin and Neal, but he's a far more natural complement with Crosby). I see Kulemin having a similar impact with Malkin. The points will be a bonus.
I like what Kulemin could bring to Malkin's line. I don't like it enough to pay a premium that other potential targets wouldn't command. A 1st rounder for a potential scoring winger coming off a 7 goal season is too rich for my blood no matter how robust his all-around game or what his history is with our superstar.

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While I doubt that Shero would do it (and the mere suggestion would raise the ire of most Pens fans), I'd put Bennett or Harrington on the table, because I think that's what it takes to get Burke interested. Sometimes, you've got to give to get.
Ugh, God no. Malkin's talents are not so particular that he requires us to overpay for a guy who would be a flier for any other team.

Get him any winger who knows his head from his ass in the offensive zone and he'll do just fine. There are no counter-examples to refute this idea.

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01-02-2013, 09:05 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
I'd want a prospect coming back to replace Kule if we are replacing Maata for you.

Kulemin + Percy for Bennett + Maata.
Bennett's not happening. He's not a guy coming off a down year...he's produced every year at every level.

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01-02-2013, 09:09 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Bennett's not happening. He's not a guy coming off a down year...he's produced every year at every level.
I know that. That's why I would want him coming back for Kule.

Kule didn't have a bad year. Maybe offensively, but even then he's our best defensive forward and is built like a truck.

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01-02-2013, 09:15 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
I know that. That's why I would want him coming back for Kule.

Kule didn't have a bad year. Maybe offensively, but even then he's our best defensive forward and is built like a truck.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: all other things being equal, a guy who goes from 30 goals to 7 goals has had a down year. It doesn't mean he was bad, but he clearly has not lived up to his previous standard.

Bennett is a total non-starter. He's the lone forward prospect in our pool who can create offense on his own, even on an offense-deprived WBS team.

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01-02-2013, 09:30 PM
  #210
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Leafs wont move him. He will either find his stride or take a walk as a free agent when his contract is up. At this point if his value is that of a average Dman prospect, there is really no point in moving him at all. We can plug him on the 3rd line and he would still be a productive player; even outside the scoresheet.

No point in looking at random fans tell us that he isn't worth their 4th best prospect who hasn't even scratched the NHL. However, i see where they are coming from, but lets get real. (in terms of not wanting to move much , for a guy that took a major step back offensively)


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01-02-2013, 09:32 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: all other things being equal, a guy who goes from 30 goals to 7 goals has had a down year. It doesn't mean he was bad, but he clearly has not lived up to his previous standard.

Bennett is a total non-starter. He's the lone forward prospect in our pool who can create offense on his own, even on an offense-deprived WBS team.
Then the deal is a nonstarter. Have to give to get, and you obviously are looking for a garage sale price for Kuley, something no one is going to hand him over for.

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01-02-2013, 09:40 PM
  #212
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If Kulemin scored 30 goals a year a couple of times or came close to that number a couple of times but he hasn't and he has played 4 years in the NHL. Kulemin is more like a good two-way 20 goal scorer and he's not worth Maata, no matter if you belittle Maata by calling him an average dman prospect.

You were a lottery team last year and the question is whether you want to trade Kulemin and go for the likes of a Drouin or Barkov next year because that is a likely scenario even though it may seem very remote to Leaf fans now.

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01-02-2013, 09:47 PM
  #213
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Then the deal is a nonstarter. Have to give to get, and you obviously are looking for a garage sale price for Kuley, something no one is going to hand him over for.
No, I'm looking for a price that actually takes into account his precipitous drop in production. A recent 23rd overall is not a garage sale price for a winger coming off a 7 goal season, no matter how solid he is in other aspects of the game.

Leafs fans want prospective trade partners to completely ignore his last season. That's not reasonable to me, at all.

We're so far off on value that it's really not worth discussing further. Keep Kulemin - hopefully he'll justify your faith in him returning to form in Toronto.

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01-02-2013, 09:50 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I'm looking for a price that actually takes into account his precipitous drop in production. A recent 23rd overall is not a garage sale price for a winger coming off a 7 goal season, no matter how solid he is in other aspects of the game.

Leafs fans want prospective trade partners to completely ignore his last season. That's not reasonable to me, at all.

We're so far off on value that it's really not worth discussing further. Keep Kulemin - hopefully he'll justify your faith in him returning to form in Toronto.
Percy is a recent 25th overall pick

So you think Kulemin + 25th overall is worth the 23rd overall pick? That's what your proposal was.

Also, I wouldn't trade Kulemin for Maata straight up either

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01-02-2013, 09:53 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Percy is a recent 25th overall pick

So you think Kulemin + 25th overall is worth the 23rd overall pick? That's what your proposal was.

Also, I wouldn't trade Kulemin for Maata straight up either
I threw it out there, open for alterations since I expected sweetener from the other side. Nobody responded with anything reasonable.

But since Maatta isn't even enough, again, it's not worth pursuing. We should look elsewhere at that price.

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01-02-2013, 09:57 PM
  #216
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If Kulemin scored 30 goals a year a couple of times or came close to that number a couple of times but he hasn't and he has played 4 years in the NHL. Kulemin is more like a good two-way 20 goal scorer and he's not worth Maata, no matter if you belittle Maata by calling him an average dman prospect.

You were a lottery team last year and the question is whether you want to trade Kulemin and go for the likes of a Drouin or Barkov next year because that is a likely scenario even though it may seem very remote to Leaf fans now.
Kulemin's first two seasons can't really be used against him in terms of production. He was a 30-40 point player playing on the 3rd line, that's all you can ask of a player in that situation. When he got guaranteed top-6 minutes he scored 30 goals. The last season he was certainly poor offensively, but this year he is 7th in KHL scoring and PPG, guess who's in front of him?

Maatta is an average D-man propect. A late first excites no one. Kulemin as a 20-goal, 2-way player is still much more valuable then maybe a 2nd pairing D-man, 3-4 years down the road, and he is more likely to becomes a 2nd pair defenseman in the FEL than the NHL.

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01-02-2013, 10:02 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I'm looking for a price that actually takes into account his precipitous drop in production. A recent 23rd overall is not a garage sale price for a winger coming off a 7 goal season, no matter how solid he is in other aspects of the game.

Leafs fans want prospective trade partners to completely ignore his last season. That's not reasonable to me, at all.

We're so far off on value that it's really not worth discussing further. Keep Kulemin - hopefully he'll justify your faith in him returning to form in Toronto.
Keep Maata - hopefully he reaches potential and doesn't turn into an Aki Berg type.

In all seriousness though. I see what you mean, and all leaf fans should. A FAN is likely not open to trading away young prospects for a player who has clearly taken a step back. (albeit still very young) However, on the leafs side our fans don't want to see him go over there and play with arguably the best player in the league; at the cost of a fringe prospect who might make it. (I mean that with all respect; but at this time he is no more of a threat to take a D spot than Stuart Percy or Jesse Blacker)

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01-02-2013, 10:16 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I'm looking for a price that actually takes into account his precipitous drop in production. A recent 23rd overall is not a garage sale price for a winger coming off a 7 goal season, no matter how solid he is in other aspects of the game.

Leafs fans want prospective trade partners to completely ignore his last season. That's not reasonable to me, at all.

We're so far off on value that it's really not worth discussing further. Keep Kulemin - hopefully he'll justify your faith in him returning to form in Toronto.
I think you are looking for a price that puts an inordinate weight on one season as opposed to multiple requests to represent his country at the highest stage, league MVP awards, steadily rising point production (save one year). So far last year looks like the anomaly in the mix.

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01-02-2013, 10:17 PM
  #219
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Keep Maata - hopefully he reaches potential and doesn't turn into an Aki Berg type.

In all seriousness though. I see what you mean, and all leaf fans should. A FAN is likely not open to trading away young prospects for a player who has clearly taken a step back. (albeit still very young) However, on the leafs side our fans don't want to see him go over there and play with arguably the best player in the league; at the cost of a fringe prospect who might make it. (I mean that with all respect; but at this time he is no more of a threat to take a D spot than Stuart Percy or Jesse Blacker)
Yeah, I don't begrudge TO fans for wanting to hang onto Kulemin - everybody thinks their players are just going through a slump (especially if they're younger), and he does bring value outside his point totals. It'd also hurt to see him tear it up with Malkin like Neal did.

But the prices being asked just aren't worth it to a prospective trade partner. No harm, no foul.

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01-02-2013, 10:24 PM
  #220
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I think you are looking for a price that puts an inordinate weight on one season as opposed to multiple requests to represent his country at the highest stage, league MVP awards, steadily rising point production (save one year). So far last year looks like the anomaly in the mix.
International presence is nice, though not at all rare for any Russian NHL forward his age. His MVP came before his NHL career, so I don't see that holding much weight.

As it stands, Kulemin has played 4 NHL seasons, and has been around a 30 point scorer for 3 of those seasons. So far, the 30 goal season is the anomaly.

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01-02-2013, 10:45 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: all other things being equal, a guy who goes from 30 goals to 7 goals has had a down year. It doesn't mean he was bad, but he clearly has not lived up to his previous standard.

Bennett is a total non-starter. He's the lone forward prospect in our pool who can create offense on his own, even on an offense-deprived WBS team.
Listen man I understand where you are coming from but you have to realize why we are asking for what we are. We have no real reason to move Kulemin if anything we need more of guys like him on top of everything his value is at an all time low. He may not be the 30 goal scoring PWF he showed us but he is not this 7 goal scoring guy we saw last year he is more of less a 18 to 25 goal scoring winger who will put up 50 points and play an amazing defensive game. So what I am trying to get at is unless you want to overpay for his services then just forget it he has become a bit of a favorite for leaf fans.

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01-02-2013, 10:59 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
Listen man I understand where you are coming from but you have to realize why we are asking for what we are. We have no real reason to move Kulemin if anything we need more of guys like him on top of everything his value is at an all time low. He may not be the 30 goal scoring PWF he showed us but he is not this 7 goal scoring guy we saw last year he is more of less a 18 to 25 goal scoring winger who will put up 50 points and play an amazing defensive game. So what I am trying to get at is unless you want to overpay for his services then just forget it he has become a bit of a favorite for leaf fans.
I think we came to this conclusion a while ago. We understand each other.

It's a no-go.

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01-02-2013, 11:02 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
International presence is nice, though not at all rare for any Russian NHL forward his age. His MVP came before his NHL career, so I don't see that holding much weight.

As it stands, Kulemin has played 4 NHL seasons, and has been around a 30 point scorer for 3 of those seasons. So far, the 30 goal season is the anomaly.
Sure, you can ignore his career and focus on one year. Don't be surprised when no one else does.

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01-02-2013, 11:07 PM
  #224
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I think we came to this conclusion a while ago. We understand each other.

It's a no-go.
Yeah I thought so it is just people love to beat a dead horse on HFBoards *cough* Luongo *cough* But I will give them the benefit of the doubt it is due to the lockout.

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01-02-2013, 11:18 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
Sure, you can ignore his career and focus on one year. Don't be surprised when no one else does.
I repeat, he has been a ~30 point scorer in 3 of his 4 NHL seasons.

And just to clarify, 3 is greater than 1. Three times greater, in fact.

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