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12-31-2012, 04:30 PM
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Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VII

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12-31-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Yup because I said I think I can be a coach & would do all of that

I just think Scott Arniel is an awful coach, not saying I could do a better job. Just basing it off how the team has performed this year compared to last & his past track record.
No no, i wasn't implying you were like that, i was just including how most people are like that in a response to you.

Though i do think you underestimate the coach and overrate this teams potential and their effort level, we dont even have a star player on our team, its a bunch of undersized career ahlers and 2nd tier prospects at best. One that could be considered a top prospect in kassian but sadly power forwards are late bloomers

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12-31-2012, 04:44 PM
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No no, i wasn't implying you were like that, i was just including how most people are like that in a response to you.

Though i do think you underestimate the coach and overrate this teams potential and their effort level, we dont even have a star player on our team, its a bunch of undersized career ahlers and 2nd tier prospects at best. One that could be considered a top prospect in kassian but sadly power forwards are late bloomers
Well you could see why it looked like you were implying I was....

I think he could put players in better positions/situations to help certain aspects of the Wolves game.... like putting Schroeder on the PK like he was last year.

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12-31-2012, 06:17 PM
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I think the narrative being spun about ES and PP goes against all the amounts of evidence out there. Great players don't thrive on bad PPs and bad (or mediocre) players don't put up great results at ES.

Whether you like it or not, players spend more than 60% of their time out at ES and that's what's going to decide their future in the NHL. Otherwise Marc-Andre Bergeron would be a superstar. It's also been proven that statistically, production at ES translates better to the NHL than PP production (at all levels, junior and AHL).

Furthermore, we have ample evidence that if a PP setup is horrible even the best players won't rescue it. See Malkin 2 or 3 years ago when the Pens PP sucked and his points went down massively. Patrick Kane is another such player that has suffered on a poor PP despite all the talent on that team — he had 12 PP points all of last season (good for 129th in the league) but 54 ESP (good for 14th in the league).

To bring our own big league team into this, the Sedins didn't suddenly become bad PP players last season. No, teams figured out our PP and our entry and we couldn't do anything to negate it. I would hardly blame the Sedins for suddenly forgetting how to play hockey or make difference in games. I won't even mention how the 2nd unit did during that whole time.

In fact, there's a reason that you'll see team's PP percentages swing widely with coaching changes and it's one of the areas that's the most dependant on the quality of your coaching. I believe there's even an article out there that talks about how little bringing in better players does to the quality of your PP unless there are actual changes to the system.

And finally, the 2nd PP unit probably gets an average of 30-40 seconds per penalty. That's not even enough time to set up in most cases. The 2nd unit is also composed of such high scoring players as Anton Rodin, Andrew Gordon, Bill Sweatt, and others. Sweatt and Rodin combined have less points than Schroeder.

To come back to Schroeder specifically and the ES discussion, it's more than ridiculous to claim he's not driving the play or not controlling the play. We're talking about a player that's tied for the lead in goals and points on this team while playing with Rodin, Sweatt, Gordon, and other players who still haven't gotten more than 10 points on the year. He has, I believe, 3 or 4 games this year playing with Sterling and/or Kassian, the other top scorers. He has 0 games with Ebbett and like 4 games with Haydar (but Haydar has been an abomination at ES). Who IS driving the play on that line if he isn't?


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-31-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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12-31-2012, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think the narrative being spun about ES and PP goes against all the amounts of evidence out there. Great players don't thrive on bad PPs and bad (or mediocre) players don't put up great results at ES.

Whether you like it or not, players spend more than 60% of their time out at ES and that's what's going to decide their future in the NHL. Otherwise Marc-Andre Bergeron would be a superstar. It's also been proven that statistically, production at ES translates better to the NHL than PP production (at all levels, junior and AHL).

Furthermore, we have ample evidence that if a PP setup is horrible even the best players won't rescue it. See Malkin 2 or 3 years ago when the Pens PP sucked and his points went down massively.

To bring our own big league team into this, the Sedins didn't suddenly become bad PP players last season. No, teams figured out our PP and our entry and we couldn't do anything to negate it. I would hardly blame the Sedins for suddenly forgetting how to play hockey or make difference in games. I won't even mention how the 2nd unit did during that whole time.

In fact, there's a reason that you'll see team's PP percentages swing widely with coaching changes and it's one of the areas that's the most dependant on the quality of your coaching. I believe there's even an article out there that talks about how little bringing in better players does to the quality of your PP unless there are actual changes to the system.

And finally, the 2nd PP unit probably gets an average of 30-40 seconds per penalty. That's not even enough time to set up in most cases. The 2nd unit is also composed of such high scoring players as Anton Rodin, Andrew Gordon, Bill Sweatt, and others. Sweatt and Rodin combined have less points than Schroeder.

To come back to Schroeder specifically and the ES discussion, it's more than ridiculous to claim he's not driving the play or not controlling the play. We're talking about a player that's tied for the lead in goals and points on this team while playing with Rodin, Sweatt, Gordon, and other players who still haven't gotten more than 10 points on the year. He has, I believe, 3 or 4 games this year playing with Sterling and/or Kassian, the other top scorers. He has 0 games with Ebbett and like 4 games with Haydar (but Haydar has been an abomination at ES). Who IS driving the play on that line if he isn't?
Well said.

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12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
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No but why even compare their numbers then? To show comparing numbers is silly? I think you bringing up comparisons of his numbers vs players much much better actually went against what you were implying

Im simply disagreeing that these stars would all of a sudden suffer if they came here. Stars are stars. They are highly touted for a reason.

We dont even have a star or top 10 pick potential, so to judge what a player could do here if they played on this team is a bit strange to me

RNH would still be dominating on the PP here or any team he played on. Just like the NHL, a star will get his points, they always do. Nash isn't going to get any more pts in New York. Its teh fringe and 2nd tier players where it matters when and where they play
I'm not sure if you're getting the point of such a comparison with ES points.

It's that even at 5-on-5 - with much worse linemates to boot - JS has been able to nearly match the Oilers' stars on an ES pts/game basis: 0.536 vs. 0.585 averaged for RNH, Eberle and Schultz, not counting today's game.

AND they have the benefit of playing with skilled players literally all the time, plus 1st line ice-time whereas on this team Arniel keeps force-feeding Ebbett and Haydar top minutes at evens and PP.

Now PP's are what really separate their point totals, and if you still contend that "Well, if a star player like RNH or Eberle were on the Wolves, they'd still put up lots of PP points", then you're really neglecting the team aspect of the game. Hockey is such a team sport that it's generally difficult for a star player to dominate one contest, let alone over 30. You need good teammates with you to do well (coaching too I might add). It's unrealistic to think that one of those guys could just be a one man show on the Wolves' PP when you factor in who they'd be out there with.

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12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
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PP's are what really separate their point totals, and if you still contend that "Well, if a star player like RNH or Eberle were on the Wolves, they'd still put up lots of PP points", then you're really neglecting the team aspect of the game. Hockey is such a team sport that it's generally difficult for a star player to dominate one contest, let alone over 30. You need good teammates with you to do well. It's unrealistic to think that one of those guys could just be a one man show on the Wolves' PP when you factor in who they're out there with.
Kane, Towes, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Leddy, etc. — sounds like you could put together an amazing PP, right? Wrong, they were Bottom 5 last year. A good system and coaching matters so much more. Unless we're claiming that after years of being great PP players, Kane, Toews, and Hossa suddenly forgot how to put up points on a man advantage. Can't neglect to mention the lack of Campbell who could really QB a PP.

Wolves don't have the coaching, nor the D to run a PP. As it stands, keeping everything the same, you could put up the best forwards in the AHL on the Wolves PP and I have little doubt that it would continue to be mediocre.

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12-31-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Kane, Towes, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Leddy, etc. — sounds like you could put together an amazing PP, right? Wrong, they were Bottom 5 last year. A good system and coaching matters so much more. Unless we're claiming that after years of being great PP players, Kane, Toews, and Hossa suddenly forgot how to put up points on a man advantage. Can't neglect to mention the lack of Campbell who could really QB a PP.

Wolves don't have the coaching, nor the D to run a PP. As it stands, keeping everything the same, you could put up the best forwards in the AHL on the Wolves PP and I have little doubt that it would continue to be mediocre.
You can truly see this when watching them play. Too much standing around, not enough screening of the goalie with consistency, and the guys on D seem unable to get their shots through. No 'true' PP QB too - as Connauton is more of a trigger man - who has the puck skills, confidence, vision, skating and instincts to really run it from the point. Good post above btw.

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12-31-2012, 07:31 PM
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You can truly see this when watching them play. Too much standing around, not enough screening of the goalie with consistency, and the guys on D seem unable to get their shots through. No 'true' PP QB too - as Connauton is more of a trigger man - who has the puck skills, confidence, vision, skating and instincts to really run it from the point. Good post above btw.
They also make strange decisions like having Sterling screening the goalie... not exactly an area where he has thrived. I've also seen countless times Schroeder be the one that screens the goalie (???).

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12-31-2012, 08:18 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I think the narrative being spun about ES and PP goes against all the amounts of evidence out there. Great players don't thrive on bad PPs and bad (or mediocre) players don't put up great results at ES.

Whether you like it or not, players spend more than 60% of their time out at ES and that's what's going to decide their future in the NHL. Otherwise Marc-Andre Bergeron would be a superstar. It's also been proven that statistically, production at ES translates better to the NHL than PP production (at all levels, junior and AHL).

Furthermore, we have ample evidence that if a PP setup is horrible even the best players won't rescue it. See Malkin 2 or 3 years ago when the Pens PP sucked and his points went down massively. Patrick Kane is another such player that has suffered on a poor PP despite all the talent on that team — he had 12 PP points all of last season (good for 129th in the league) but 54 ESP (good for 14th in the league).

To bring our own big league team into this, the Sedins didn't suddenly become bad PP players last season. No, teams figured out our PP and our entry and we couldn't do anything to negate it. I would hardly blame the Sedins for suddenly forgetting how to play hockey or make difference in games. I won't even mention how the 2nd unit did during that whole time.

In fact, there's a reason that you'll see team's PP percentages swing widely with coaching changes and it's one of the areas that's the most dependant on the quality of your coaching. I believe there's even an article out there that talks about how little bringing in better players does to the quality of your PP unless there are actual changes to the system.

And finally, the 2nd PP unit probably gets an average of 30-40 seconds per penalty. That's not even enough time to set up in most cases. The 2nd unit is also composed of such high scoring players as Anton Rodin, Andrew Gordon, Bill Sweatt, and others. Sweatt and Rodin combined have less points than Schroeder.

To come back to Schroeder specifically and the ES discussion, it's more than ridiculous to claim he's not driving the play or not controlling the play. We're talking about a player that's tied for the lead in goals and points on this team while playing with Rodin, Sweatt, Gordon, and other players who still haven't gotten more than 10 points on the year. He has, I believe, 3 or 4 games this year playing with Sterling and/or Kassian, the other top scorers. He has 0 games with Ebbett and like 4 games with Haydar (but Haydar has been an abomination at ES). Who IS driving the play on that line if he isn't?
Hey now, easy does it. Let's not let facts get in the way of a good diatribe.

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01-01-2013, 07:49 AM
  #11
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I think pseudo is feeling that you cannot say something negative about prospects without having people really jump on it. And it is that way. It's not going to change either.



The reason Schroeder's ES points comparison is encouraging is because his future will be determined greatly by his production. If he can put up points at ES, something akin to what other good players are doing, it bodes well. The production should be steady when he advances. _Should_ be.



The PP issue goes both ways IMO. It's coaching _and_ it's Schroeder. There are some small skilled players like Kane that get on a PP and look absolutely deadly, even if production doesn't follow. This is not the case with Schroeder. He doesn't command attention in that way. For a smaller guy, he needs to develop that half-wall presence to get better there IMO, so that he can draw guys in and dish... we'll see if he can.



I'm a Schroeder fan. So much so that I desperately want him to lock down a spot this year. I want him on the big club now. He's such a smart player that I think it would be a shame if he doesn't make it. I'm invested. That said, I can still criticize him when he's too passive, or when he has trouble finishing etc... It goes both ways. Not just praise, which is what some would advocate here.

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01-01-2013, 09:00 AM
  #12
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I'm a Schroeder fan. So much so that I desperately want him to lock down a spot this year. I want him on the big club now. He's such a smart player that I think it would be a shame if he doesn't make it. I'm invested. That said, I can still criticize him when he's too passive, or when he has trouble finishing etc... It goes both ways. Not just praise, which is what some would advocate here.

I completely agree.

"Accountability" there should be more of it. When you hold a player at such a high level or low level, it doesn't allow for improvements or falters. This city and it's media has done this for years with goalies. The love it or hate it mentality is not reality. A perfect example of this is how Kevin Bieksa changed his game. Trevor Linden could do no wrong and Roberto Luongo can do no right. All or nothing just isn't a sane way to view things.

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01-01-2013, 09:41 AM
  #13
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I'm a Schroeder fan. So much so that I desperately want him to lock down a spot this year. I want him on the big club now. He's such a smart player that I think it would be a shame if he doesn't make it. I'm invested. That said, I can still criticize him when he's too passive, or when he has trouble finishing etc... It goes both ways. Not just praise, which is what some would advocate here.
I don't think there's anything wrong with criticizing players when it's grounded in reality. There's been a decent amount of it, hell I've ripped Schroeder for a few games this year. Unfortunately what we usually get is outbursts by the same expected people who throw out ridiculous statements like that Kassian should be hitting every second shift or that production at ES is not a proof of anything and should be ignored.

For all the defending of Schroeder that I do, I've said before that he's only #5 on my list of Canucks' prospects (behind Corrado actually).

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All or nothing just isn't a sane way to view things.
Well said and it's definitely something we get a lot of around here.


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01-01-2013, 10:47 AM
  #14
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He actually got hit by a puck in the arm which is what caused all the swelling...

Could just be a hematoma who's swelling went down quickly.
Re: Tanev from Saturday night... that would explain it. He must've been hit by the puck just prior getting run into the boards. He did hit them hard and at an awkward angle so I was assuming that was the source of his swollen arm, but glad that's not what it was. Would suck to have your best D prospect go down with broken arm.

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01-01-2013, 12:35 PM
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I think pseudo is feeling that you cannot say something negative about prospects without having people really jump on it. And it is that way. It's not going to change either.



The reason Schroeder's ES points comparison is encouraging is because his future will be determined greatly by his production. If he can put up points at ES, something akin to what other good players are doing, it bodes well. The production should be steady when he advances. _Should_ be.



The PP issue goes both ways IMO. It's coaching _and_ it's Schroeder. There are some small skilled players like Kane that get on a PP and look absolutely deadly, even if production doesn't follow. This is not the case with Schroeder. He doesn't command attention in that way. For a smaller guy, he needs to develop that half-wall presence to get better there IMO, so that he can draw guys in and dish... we'll see if he can.



I'm a Schroeder fan. So much so that I desperately want him to lock down a spot this year. I want him on the big club now. He's such a smart player that I think it would be a shame if he doesn't make it. I'm invested. That said, I can still criticize him when he's too passive, or when he has trouble finishing etc... It goes both ways. Not just praise, which is what some would advocate here.
From what I've seen Schroeder hardly gets the opportunity on the PP from the half wall.

You have to have opportunity to develop a skill set.

He's been excellent from that spot at all levels other than our affiliate.

Definitely don't like seeing him play the point.

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01-01-2013, 04:16 PM
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In this thread: a very good post by Tiranis. I really don't get why Schroeder isn't killing penalties.

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01-01-2013, 05:32 PM
  #17
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In this thread: a very good post by Tiranis. I really don't get why Schroeder isn't killing penalties.
Yeah, that one is even stranger than the PP thing. He was doing well last season. Perhaps now with Friesen and Longpre out they'll have no choice but to put him out there?

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01-02-2013, 07:29 PM
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what a pass

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01-02-2013, 08:47 PM
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Sick pass.

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01-02-2013, 09:18 PM
  #20
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Smart player.

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01-02-2013, 09:26 PM
  #21
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lol. Nice play by Kassian.

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01-02-2013, 09:35 PM
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Ha! what a smart play.

Kassian has two qualities you can't teach—size and smarts. He will be a top 6 forward in the NHL.

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01-02-2013, 09:38 PM
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Amazing play :O

Love the Kassian Beard too, looks like a more skilled Bertuzzi.

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01-02-2013, 10:06 PM
  #24
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Amazing play :O

Love the Kassian Beard too, looks like a more skilled Bertuzzi.
Bertuzzi was exceptionally skilled... Kassian is somewhere between Clowe and Bertuzzi IMO.

This pass should at least put to rest any Steve Bernier comparisons. This week alone Kassian has shown more vision and creativity than Bernier ever did as a Canuck.

Patience will be key with Kassian but with his size, vision and shot I just don't see how this guy fails to reach his potential as a top 6 forward. People will give him space and he'll know what to do with it.

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01-02-2013, 10:24 PM
  #25
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Yeah, Bertuzzi's hands are exceptional, Kassian has to catch up in that aspect. Very nice pass there though, looks like he almost could have been trying to bank it off the goalie though

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