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If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

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01-02-2013, 09:45 PM
  #251
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
It was not inability to find someone it was the inability to find somewhere, as in somewhere to play.
Last I checked, the Stars (unlike the Thrashers) have somewhere to play.

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01-02-2013, 09:49 PM
  #252
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In the '80s there was nothing to indicate the Red Wings were ever going to get substantially better. Nor was there anything to indicate the Oilers were ever going to get substantially worse until Pocklington started selling off his talent.
You have to have a better plan than " because they did it we might be able to do it to

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01-02-2013, 09:59 PM
  #253
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You have to have a better plan than " because they did it we might be able to do it to
Sure, but you have to have a better argument than "despite the fact that they did it we will definitely fail until proven otherwise."

Other leagues not originally native to the South have expanded there successfully. There is no reason hockey can't follow suit. And if it can, as the best league in the world ever striving to maintain that eminence, it absolutely should.

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01-02-2013, 10:06 PM
  #254
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You realize those two things are nothing like each other. One is the enviorment they play and the other is how they play? That would be like saying baseball couldn't have the second baseman inbetween 1st and 2nd. Good gravy man.
I dunno, they banned the flying wedge in football.

Nullifying the offsides and icing rule if there's zero or one opposing players beyond the red line and that's a good start. It's the offsides and icing rule that slows attacking teams down far enough for the trap to work, otherwise, you only need to get one man past the trap and execute a proper stretch pass.

In other words, if an opposing team is conceding the puck, the puck controlling team is absolutely free in what it can choose to do with it. If an opposing team is not conceding the puck, the puck control rules apply.

Effectively that would mandate a 2 man forecheck and that all by itself limits the ability to trap. If when you fall back you're practically begging for someone's little skill forward to get free behind you, a lot less coaches will trap.

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01-02-2013, 10:09 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Sure, but you have to have a better argument than "despite the fact that they did it we will definitely fail until proven otherwise."

Other leagues not originally native to the South have expanded there successfully. There is no reason hockey can't follow suit. And if it can, as the best league in the world ever striving to maintain that eminence, it absolutely should.
So the fact that the southern expansion in Atlanta failed, twice, the fact that phoenix is an embarrassment is not any indication of what may be instore. The jackets will shake off the stink of failure and go on to displace the leafs as the leagues biggest unstoppable economic force. In short order.

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01-02-2013, 10:12 PM
  #256
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o the fact that the southern expansion in Atlanta failed, twice, the fact that phoenix is an embarrassment is not any indication of what may be instore. The jackets will shake off the stink of failure and go on to displace the leafs as the leagues biggest unstoppable economic force. In short order.
Sure, if you want to cherry-pick the two most obvious failures of that expansion and bizarrely consider Ohio "southern," which makes absolutely no sense in any way whatsoever.

There is no practical reason to lump Columbus in with the other expansion squads. Professional sports is very well entrenched in Ohio, and the Jackets are failing for their own reasons that have nothing to do with the objective viability of the sport.

Atlanta, Phoenix and Columbus are what happens when you turn new markets over to mediocre ownership. They're hardly the first teams in professional sports to have histories like theirs (see also: Seattle Pilots). It's nothing new or in any way unique to either hockey or the south.

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01-02-2013, 10:12 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
It was not inability to find someone it was the inability to find somewhere, as in somewhere to play.
Touche', though I still take issue with your assertion in another post (and echoed by others) that Atlanta "failed" as a market twice. It didn't so much fail the second time as it was sabotaged.

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01-02-2013, 10:17 PM
  #258
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Sorry, non traditional markets. My mistake.
What's nontraditional about Ohio? They're ringed and surrounded by traditional markets and have a rich college hockey tradition. They're also a place that snows in the winter and has ice on the lakes, since that apparently matters.

The problem here is that Columbus completely destroys your reasoning. Its failure means that the traditional market areas such as the northeast corrodor, do not offer the solution to the problem of failed hockey franchises in exactly the same way Minnesota's original failure and the mediocrity of the Wild means the exact same thing

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01-02-2013, 10:23 PM
  #259
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Touche', though I still take issue with your assertion in another post (and echoed by others) that Atlanta "failed" as a market twice. It didn't so much fail the second time as it was sabotaged.
Tomato, tomato. Failure by incompetence or by design is still failure in my books. Quebec and winnepeg failed once each, so did hartford and Kansas city. The difference is the peg is back, QC will be and unless someone is willing to endow Atlanta with a new arena and kc with an ownership group and a basic desire for the game, those doors will remain unknocked.

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01-02-2013, 10:30 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
What's nontraditional about Ohio? They're ringed and surrounded by traditional markets and have a rich college hockey tradition. They're also a place that snows in the winter and has ice on the lakes, since that apparently matters.

The problem here is that Columbus completely destroys your reasoning. Its failure means that the traditional market areas such as the northeast corrodor, do not offer the solution to the problem of failed hockey franchises in exactly the same way Minnesota's original failure and the mediocrity of the Wild means the exact same thing
What is my reasoning? That keeping teams in crappy markets to sate fans with napoleon syndrome is a bad policy.

I don't profess to have the a answer to all of the teams in non traditional markets. I am however completely confident that moving these teams woulld improve their lot and would prevent teams in crappy markets from crying poor and initiating new lockouts. Should they all move,, no. Should somemove, yep.

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01-02-2013, 10:33 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Tomato, tomato. Failure by incompetence or by design is still failure in my books. Quebec and winnepeg failed once each, so did hartford and Kansas city. The difference is the peg is back, QC will be and unless someone is willing to endow Atlanta with a new arena and kc with an ownership group and a basic desire for the game, those doors will remain unknocked.

1: Winnipeg is "back," but keep the champagne in storage for a few years, until we see how the smallest market in the entire NHL handles the grind of season after season -- and how full the barn is in year 17 with 6 straight plyoff DNQ's. Only fair. Columbus looked pretty good after year 1 too.

2: Sabotage vs. entropy is a very important question here. ASG could have sold off to an Atlanta based group. They were out there. They chose not to do so because they, as individuals in no meaningful way representing the city of Atlanta, did not want a hockey team there. An ownership group that was even indifferent to the success or failure of the team would have been an upgrade. Judging Atlanta on the failure of the Thrashers would be just as stupid as judging Seattle by the failure of the Seattle Pilots, for exactly the same reasons.

3: By your own argument regarding failed markets, the Ottawa Senators should not exist. Neither should the St. Louis Blues. And if I recall correctly, a major league hockey team failed in Vancouver once way back in the day too.


Last edited by Killion: 01-02-2013 at 11:06 PM.
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01-02-2013, 10:34 PM
  #262
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There are plenty of 06 teams that are not Canadian. If you need me to point out which ones they are just ask. Traditional markets are precisely that, markets with a historical record of support that are not likely to go poof in the middle of the night.


Last edited by Killion: 01-02-2013 at 10:58 PM. Reason: qtd del...
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01-02-2013, 10:37 PM
  #263
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There are plenty of 06 teams that are not Canadian. If you need me to point out which ones they are just ask. Traditional markets are precisely that, markets with a historical record of support that are not likely to go poof in the middle of the night.
You've created a catch 22. I hope you realize that. Teams can't build that kind of history and tradition until they go through growing pains, and here's you, trumpeting around declaring every growing pain as a failure. Yes, some actually are failures, and telling the difference is hard, which is not an excuse at all to fail to even attempt to differentiate.

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01-02-2013, 10:56 PM
  #264
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Your right, the thrashed were in a much better market, not the same at all.
I hope you realize it wasn't long ago the Stars were in the upper echelon of team value in the NHL (And not 10 years ago, think 4 or 5 years ago before the owner went bankrupt, which was unrelated to the Stars), not too far in the past that Dallas was one of the top teams in the league in attendence, fairly recently one of the top spenders in the NHL. Hell even now they're still an extremely valuable team despite gettung next to no marketing for the past 4 seasons.

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01-02-2013, 11:04 PM
  #265
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I dunno, they banned the flying wedge in football.

Nullifying the offsides and icing rule if there's zero or one opposing players beyond the red line and that's a good start. It's the offsides and icing rule that slows attacking teams down far enough for the trap to work, otherwise, you only need to get one man past the trap and execute a proper stretch pass.

In other words, if an opposing team is conceding the puck, the puck controlling team is absolutely free in what it can choose to do with it. If an opposing team is not conceding the puck, the puck control rules apply.

Effectively that would mandate a 2 man forecheck and that all by itself limits the ability to trap. If when you fall back you're practically begging for someone's little skill forward to get free behind you, a lot less coaches will trap.
Understood. But hockeys is much more free flowing and you are talking about 1 play. They are saying, you can not set up that way. If the play goes beyond that initial play then what? are the teams prohibited from making a flying wedge down the field? no, just on the initial portion of the play. How, with the puck movement could you say, well the puck was in their defensive zone after your forecheck so now it's a penalty because you fell back? Football is 1 play, then 1 more play, not a free flowing game.

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01-02-2013, 11:16 PM
  #266
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Understood. But hockeys is much more free flowing and you are talking about 1 play. They are saying, you can not set up that way. If the play goes beyond that initial play then what? are the teams prohibited from making a flying wedge down the field? no, just on the initial portion of the play. How, with the puck movement could you say, well the puck was in their defensive zone after your forecheck so now it's a penalty because you fell back? Football is 1 play, then 1 more play, not a free flowing game.
You're parroting my thinking on the subject to be honest. Your arguments describe pretty accurately exactly why the adjustment to cut down on trapping has to be the offsides and icing rules, rather than "illegal formation," or a referee's judgment call on team positioning on the ice, because those are the rules that affect whistles and stoppage of play, and that can most directly have an impact on a coach's willingness to trap.

It's the one thing you can change most easily (this would be a simple lineman's call) that would have the most profound impact.

So if you can't easily call a team directly for trapping, alter the system so that trapping is no longer efficient. Trapping relies on offsides calls and two line icing for its efficiency because these rules slow down the attack. If trapping is a problem, allowing teams to attack through the trap more easily is the solution. Very simple attack strategies can be devised to break up the trap if the offsides rule is not a thing anymore, and eliminating the icing call allows the puck to be put deep in the opposing zone at will unless they contest the puck, meaning you're usually one lazy pass and a board battle away from an offensive zone possession. At that point the trap is practically useless and you have to send two men forward to contest for the puck and go 2-1-2 or even 2-2-1.

The biggest advantage of my proposed rule change is that it would be very easy to call on the ice. No ambiguity. If one or zero players on the team that do not possess the puck are beyond the red line, there is no icing, and there is no offsides. Even better, it's a call NOT made, rather than the refs getting in the way of the game as calling out a penalty for a specific "trap" formation might be.

If you want to break up the trap, my plan will work for that as well as anything.

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01-02-2013, 11:18 PM
  #267
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The thread has veered way off, and past, the idea of expanding to recover from the lockout.


Closed.

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