HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Dan Boyle to Ottawa

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-03-2013, 09:35 AM
  #26
Falco5
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
One, if the cap does go down, it won't until the start of next season. Two, by then, the Sharks will have contracts off the books and won't require to shed that much salary to be compliant. Boyle's not going to be a cap casualty and the only way the Sharks would contemplate dealing him is if they get legitimate value for him. Most teams with his age, cap number, and only one year after are not going to value him to the point that it would entice the Sharks to trade him...most likely.
I've seen people post this in several threads and I don't think it is accurate. If the cap does go down to 60 mil next year, Boyle will have to go unless you want an extremely top heavy team. The sharks have over 54 mil committed to 14 players. 7-8 roster spots will have to average less than 1mil in salary. Those 14 players do not include Galiardi or Demers who are restricted free agents next year and will likely be getting raises to at least 1.5 mil each. That leaves less than 3 mil for 5-6 players. Among those players will have to be a second line left wing, at least 1 3rd liner, and a back up goalie. This will not work.

Getting rid of Boyle and replacing him with a bottom pairing D-man with 1 mil in salary is the easiest way to cut a lot of salary. The sharks would still have a solid top 4 and save 5.67 mil in cap space. Even if there is an amnesty option, the sharks don't have a good choice to use it on.

Maybe you are a Marleau and/or Niemi hater. Buying out one of those players won't save very much because they will have to be replaced. Starting goalies aren't cheap. One that doesn't suck will cost at least 2.5 mil which means the sharks will save 1.3 mil in cap. Greiss is a UFA after this year and won't be cheap anymore if he becomes the starting goalie. Also, good luck finding a player that can replace Marleau for under 5 mil.

Edit: I don't think Ottawa is a good fit for Boyle. There isn't a good reason to have 2 of the 5 best PP D-men in the league on the same team.

Falco5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 09:47 AM
  #27
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,236
vCash: 500
Of course the Sens would want Boyle. Every team would want him. It is ridiculous for Ottawa fans to say he is not a good fit... Since Cowen is out for the season and Boyle completely fits the Senators style.

How deadly would the Senators be with Karlsson on the first pairing, Boyle on the second and Gonchar on the third? With Boyle and Karlsson on the 1st PP and Gonchar on the 2nd unit?

Boyle is far from done as a good player and the ageism on HF is hilarious. Everyonew wants like a young top pairing D-Man... well they don't grow on trees. There are simply rarely any available. You get quality players of any kind when the opportunity arises. I seriously doubt San Jose is interested in getting rid of Boyle based on Cap situation. I think they would make a different move and not get rid of their still best defenceman. And they would want quality in return for him if he was moved.

If Ottawa could get him they should. Character vet who is an outstanding playoff performer with some good play left in the tank? It is a no-brainer.

Sens Rule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 10:01 AM
  #28
BonkTastic
"Small Sample Size!"
 
BonkTastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Jakarta, IDN
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Of course the Sens would want Boyle. Every team would want him. It is ridiculous for Ottawa fans to say he is not a good fit... .
Disagree.

I think we have the current personnel and the prospect depth to be a legit cup contender in 3-4 years.

Selling some of that prospect depth or roster players for a guy who will be 39 when we get to that point seems silly. If Boyle was 32, I'd say go for it. But 35, considering where we want to be, is just not worth the assets it would take to get him here.

Don't get me wrong: if he were a UFA or could be had at under market value, I'd be all up ons. I just don't think it's worth it for us to pay what I EXPECT the asking price would be.

BonkTastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 10:18 AM
  #29
General Granny*
 
General Granny*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
We are... but Boyle is an Ottawa native, and this city (and the team's management) loves to bring hometown boys back.

Whenever an Ottawa-area raised player is available, there's always some "will he go home to play?" lip service being paid somewhere.
So we are going after Giroux? sweeeett

General Granny* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
  #30
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,236
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Disagree.

I think we have the current personnel and the prospect depth to be a legit cup contender in 3-4 years.

Selling some of that prospect depth or roster players for a guy who will be 39 when we get to that point seems silly. If Boyle was 32, I'd say go for it. But 35, considering where we want to be, is just not worth the assets it would take to get him here.

Don't get me wrong: if he were a UFA or could be had at under market value, I'd be all up ons. I just don't think it's worth it for us to pay what I EXPECT the asking price would be.
I think the Sens are ready to compete now for the Cup. Not that they would be favourites... but this is the new parity NHL. You could win the Cup as an 8th seed. Not that the Senators might be a better team in a few years, but you compete to make the playoffs and try to go as deep as you can every year. Plus this year, if there is a frickin season, we still have Alfredsson.

GMs in the NHL, including Bryan Murray have a plan to win now and win later. If you can get an asset that massively increases your chances of winning this season then you do it. We have an embarrassment of riches in terms of prospects at forward. Far more then could ever fill our roster. I am not advocating trading a bunch of them or anything... you wait and see how they develop and how they help you now and how they might help later. Then if a Turris comes along you can trade for him... or if a Boyle opportunity comes along you can go for it.

Teams now do not think with a 3 or 4 year window. I mean they obviously plan for the future, but you can't afford to build or rebuild for the future. You try to make the playoffs and hope you have a healthy team that is on a roll.

I totally would not have wanted Rick Nash... but Murray kicked the tires and tried to see if he could get him. Because there is a dearth of talent in the NHL and if you can get a truly top level talent.. like Boyle is... then you try to make a deal for him.

Hardly any good players get moved anymore and few ever make it to UFA because teams resign them. It has not been this hard to get new talent in your system in the NHL for a very long time... maybe ever. You are stuck with your own prospects and players to develop. We have a great prospect base now. We should not mortgage that, but getting a top level talent. even if he is 36 years old for a couple of pieces... is not mortgaging the future.

Sens Rule is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 10:38 AM
  #31
Falco5
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
@ Sens Rule: I think the point is that Ottawa has less of a need for Boyle than other teams. I expect someone else will be willing to pay a lot more.

Falco5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 12:39 PM
  #32
SenateReform
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob Silfverberg View Post
A bunch of crap for their top defenseman? Sign me up.
I was under the impression their top defensemen were Brent Burns and Dan Boyle. I'm also not sure how a top 6 forward and a good prospect like Stone are considered crap.

What would you expect for a #3 defenseman? Let's look at some comparables:

Luke Schenn for James Van riemsdyk
Zbynek Michalek for Harrison Ruopp, Marc Cheverie and a 3rd
Lubomir Visnovsky for a 2nd
Brad Stuart for Andrew Murray and conditionial pick
Mark Methot for Nick Foligno

SenateReform is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 12:52 PM
  #33
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,338
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
I was under the impression their top defensemen were Brent Burns and Dan Boyle. I'm also not sure how a top 6 forward and a good prospect like Stone are considered crap.

What would you expect for a #3 defenseman? Let's look at some comparables:

Luke Schenn for James Van riemsdyk
Zbynek Michalek for Harrison Ruopp, Marc Cheverie and a 3rd
Lubomir Visnovsky for a 2nd
Brad Stuart for Andrew Murray and conditionial pick
Mark Methot for Nick Foligno
Just FYI, Vlasic is a top-end #2 defenseman. He's only 25 years old, despite having 6 years of experience playing shut-down minutes with a variety of partners with the Sharks, is signed to a 5-year contract extension at a great cap hit, and is one of our longest tenured Sharks. He goes absolutely nowhere.

Also, since when is Colin Greening a top-6 forward?

TheJuxtaposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 01:08 PM
  #34
HavlatMach9
Registered User
 
HavlatMach9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,545
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Also, since when is Colin Greening a top-6 forward?
He's a top 3 on the Sens (played with Spezza/Michalek), he's that good (or the Sens forwards are that bad, but we were 5th in scoring).

HavlatMach9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 01:19 PM
  #35
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,338
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
He's a top 3 on the Sens (played with Spezza/Michalek), he's that good (or the Sens forwards are that bad, but we were 5th in scoring).
He scored 37 points in 82 games despite starting 57% of the time in the o-zone and playing most of his EV time with Michalek and Spezza. That doesn't remotely look like a top-6 forwards.

Suffice to say, he would not be a top-6 player on the Sharks.

TheJuxtaposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 01:23 PM
  #36
Qward
Moderator
Because! That's why!
 
Qward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Behind you, look out
Posts: 13,365
vCash: 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Just FYI, Vlasic is a top-end #2 defenseman. He's only 25 years old, despite having 6 years of experience playing shut-down minutes with a variety of partners with the Sharks, is signed to a 5-year contract extension at a great cap hit, and is one of our longest tenured Sharks. He goes absolutely nowhere.

Also, since when is Colin Greening a top-6 forward?
5th among rookies in goals, 7th in points. Rookie All-star team.

Fastest player on the Sens, faster than Karlsson.

Qward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 01:51 PM
  #37
SenateReform
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
He scored 37 points in 82 games despite starting 57% of the time in the o-zone and playing most of his EV time with Michalek and Spezza. That doesn't remotely look like a top-6 forwards.

Suffice to say, he would not be a top-6 player on the Sharks.
Some simple math:
There are 30 teams in the NHL
If each team has 12 forwards and 6 are designated top 6 then there should be 180 top 6 forwards in the NHL
Colin Greening finished the season tied for 148th in scoring among forwards which would have placed him 6th among San Jose forwards (although considerably less PPG than Havlat).

Not all top 6 forwards are going to score 50 points +, especially in their rookie season while providing great defensive play and some physicality.

SenateReform is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 03:06 PM
  #38
CanadienShark
Registered User
 
CanadienShark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
I think the Sens are ready to compete now for the Cup. Not that they would be favourites... but this is the new parity NHL. You could win the Cup as an 8th seed. Not that the Senators might be a better team in a few years, but you compete to make the playoffs and try to go as deep as you can every year. Plus this year, if there is a frickin season, we still have Alfredsson.

GMs in the NHL, including Bryan Murray have a plan to win now and win later. If you can get an asset that massively increases your chances of winning this season then you do it. We have an embarrassment of riches in terms of prospects at forward. Far more then could ever fill our roster. I am not advocating trading a bunch of them or anything... you wait and see how they develop and how they help you now and how they might help later. Then if a Turris comes along you can trade for him... or if a Boyle opportunity comes along you can go for it.

Teams now do not think with a 3 or 4 year window. I mean they obviously plan for the future, but you can't afford to build or rebuild for the future. You try to make the playoffs and hope you have a healthy team that is on a roll.

I totally would not have wanted Rick Nash... but Murray kicked the tires and tried to see if he could get him. Because there is a dearth of talent in the NHL and if you can get a truly top level talent.. like Boyle is... then you try to make a deal for him.

Hardly any good players get moved anymore and few ever make it to UFA because teams resign them. It has not been this hard to get new talent in your system in the NHL for a very long time... maybe ever. You are stuck with your own prospects and players to develop. We have a great prospect base now. We should not mortgage that, but getting a top level talent. even if he is 36 years old for a couple of pieces... is not mortgaging the future.
I'd be very interested in something around Turris and Boyle. Boyle is surely better, but only has a few years left. Not sure how your centre depth is though, not an OTT fan. Perhaps even it out with a cap dump from one side or the other, ex. Handzus from San Jose to alleviate some pain from losing a centre.

EDIT: In case you get upset, he's currently our #1 d-man (Burns is taking over though) on a very good defense. He's still arguably one of the top offensive d-men in the league. There was talk of Gaborik for Boyle, which fell through when Gabby had surgery. That is relatively fair value, and I'd have Turris about that value too.


Last edited by CanadienShark: 01-03-2013 at 03:13 PM.
CanadienShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 03:11 PM
  #39
CanadienShark
Registered User
 
CanadienShark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenateReform View Post
As much as I love Dan Boyle he's just not a good fit right now because of his age and the fact that we already have Karlsson and Gonchar playing similar roles.

It Vlasic were available I would offer quite a bit.

San Jose:
Greening + Stone + 3rd

Ottawa
Vlasic
So a third liner, OK prospect and 3rd for a very, very good top 4 d-man that could play top 2 on some teams. I'd be horrified if San Jose traded Vlasic or anything short of a vast overpayment.

CanadienShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 03:17 PM
  #40
HavlatMach9
Registered User
 
HavlatMach9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,545
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Suffice to say, he would not be a top-6 player on the Sharks.
I was indeed joking, the Sens forward depth was non existent. Yes Greening is not a top 6 forwards, but has to tools to be an emergency fill in when there are injuries, but better suited on the 3rd/4th line.

HavlatMach9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 04:07 PM
  #41
Senatorsfan92*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 608
vCash: 500
Murray should not trade Greening!

Senatorsfan92* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 04:07 PM
  #42
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,002
vCash: 137
Greening is an elite 3rd liner. Can play any where in the top 9. Good defensively. Insane speed. Can be a net presence on the PP.

He's good at everything, great at nothing.(besides skating)

Benny FTW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 04:09 PM
  #43
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,002
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienShark View Post
So a third liner, OK prospect and 3rd for a very, very good top 4 d-man that could play top 2 on some teams. I'd be horrified if San Jose traded Vlasic or anything short of a vast overpayment.
Agreed its horrible for San Jose but Stone is more than an "OK" prospect.

Benny FTW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2013, 11:47 PM
  #44
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,027
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falco5 View Post
I've seen people post this in several threads and I don't think it is accurate. If the cap does go down to 60 mil next year, Boyle will have to go unless you want an extremely top heavy team. The sharks have over 54 mil committed to 14 players. 7-8 roster spots will have to average less than 1mil in salary. Those 14 players do not include Galiardi or Demers who are restricted free agents next year and will likely be getting raises to at least 1.5 mil each. That leaves less than 3 mil for 5-6 players. Among those players will have to be a second line left wing, at least 1 3rd liner, and a back up goalie. This will not work.

Getting rid of Boyle and replacing him with a bottom pairing D-man with 1 mil in salary is the easiest way to cut a lot of salary. The sharks would still have a solid top 4 and save 5.67 mil in cap space. Even if there is an amnesty option, the sharks don't have a good choice to use it on.

Maybe you are a Marleau and/or Niemi hater. Buying out one of those players won't save very much because they will have to be replaced. Starting goalies aren't cheap. One that doesn't suck will cost at least 2.5 mil which means the sharks will save 1.3 mil in cap. Greiss is a UFA after this year and won't be cheap anymore if he becomes the starting goalie. Also, good luck finding a player that can replace Marleau for under 5 mil.

Edit: I don't think Ottawa is a good fit for Boyle. There isn't a good reason to have 2 of the 5 best PP D-men in the league on the same team.
I've gone over exactly how they can keep Boyle for 2013-14 if they want. They don't need to keep Clowe. They don't need to keep Murray. They have players in their system that can step into their roles. They have players in their system that can step into even other player's roles that may be expendable like Burish or Stuart or Niemi if they are bought out via the amnesty. The goalie situation is the easiest one because they have two guys that just need a legitimate chance and they'll be good to go in Stalock or Greiss. They have a plethora of d-men that can play the bottom pairing in Worcester.

They won't use the buyout on Marleau. I never even offered that as an option nor would I. It would be stupid for the Sharks to do that unless they can re-sign him for cheaper depending on how the rules would be for the amnesty buyout.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 01:18 AM
  #45
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,338
vCash: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
I was indeed joking, the Sens forward depth was non existent. Yes Greening is not a top 6 forwards, but has to tools to be an emergency fill in when there are injuries, but better suited on the 3rd/4th line.
Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. I'd love to have Greening on the Sharks, he would immediately be our 7th best forward (after the top-6, the rest of our forwards are crap). He's got tons of speed and a nice contract. I'd absolutely take him. But you can understand how it's laughable that he be a main piece in a deal for a player like Vlasic.

TheJuxtaposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 01:24 AM
  #46
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 50
Greening is so underrated. His stamina alone makes him one of the more valuable pieces on the Senators roster. Beast.

Kershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 01:31 AM
  #47
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,002
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. I'd love to have Greening on the Sharks, he would immediately be our 7th best forward (after the top-6, the rest of our forwards are crap). He's got tons of speed and a nice contract. I'd absolutely take him. But you can understand how it's laughable that he be a main piece in a deal for a player like Vlasic.
I'd consider Stone the main piece.

Benny FTW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 01:31 AM
  #48
Benny FTW
Head Light Fluid
 
Benny FTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,002
vCash: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Greening is so underrated. His stamina alone makes him one of the more valuable pieces on the Senators roster. Beast.
That's Condra.

Benny FTW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 06:35 AM
  #49
Sergei Shirokov
Registered User
 
Sergei Shirokov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
We are... but Boyle is an Ottawa native, and this city (and the team's management) loves to bring hometown boys back.

Whenever an Ottawa-area raised player is available, there's always some "will he go home to play?" lip service being paid somewhere.
I hear ya,

Happens in Vancouver all the time too.

Sergei Shirokov is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-04-2013, 09:31 AM
  #50
Falco5
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I've gone over exactly how they can keep Boyle for 2013-14 if they want. They don't need to keep Clowe. They don't need to keep Murray. They have players in their system that can step into their roles. They have players in their system that can step into even other player's roles that may be expendable like Burish or Stuart or Niemi if they are bought out via the amnesty. The goalie situation is the easiest one because they have two guys that just need a legitimate chance and they'll be good to go in Stalock or Greiss. They have a plethora of d-men that can play the bottom pairing in Worcester.

They won't use the buyout on Marleau. I never even offered that as an option nor would I. It would be stupid for the Sharks to do that unless they can re-sign him for cheaper depending on how the rules would be for the amnesty buyout.
First, you don't get infinite amnesty buyouts. This week I read that there might be two. That is the first time I have heard that each team would get more than one.

Clowe and Murray are gone for sure. I will be generous and assume that there really are 2 buyouts, not just one. If we buy out both niemi and Stuart that saves some money, but they have to be replaced. Below is what the roster looks like if you buy those two players out. I also bumped up the salaries of those who need to be resigned (using easy numbers to speed up the math).

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
????????? ($????) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($1.550m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
Andrew Desjardins ($0.640m) / James Sheppard ($1.250m) / John McCarthy ($0.613m)
13th Fwd ($.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Jason Demers ($1.750m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Sena Acolatse ($0.900m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
7th Dman ($.750)
GOALTENDERS
Thomas Greiss ($2.588m)
Harri Sateri ($0.875m)
------
SALARY CAP: $60,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $56,841,667; BONUSES: $357,500
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $2,758,333

It is generally a good idea to keep at least 600,000 in cap space (if not more) for injury replacements and trades during the season. This leaves you with $2mil to find a second line LW. I don't see one in the system that will be ready by next year. Who do you think will fill that hole?

Falco5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.