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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Everything Canada (goaltending, coaching, future)

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Yes 83 55.70%
No 41 27.52%
Maybe/Depends on the situation 25 16.78%
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Old
01-03-2013, 10:59 AM
  #101
oilerbear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toewsintangibles View Post
From dominating everyone in the last lockout and going on a 5 year streak for gold to losing and being dominated by the US 5-1 in the semi finals of a best on best WJC.. what has happened?
This was my Post on Dec 13 in Canadian WJC roster dicussion version 3

Post #829

I questioned the politics of selection in Canada.

There is a point!
A fact about winning and player selection.
we have won 5 of the last 15 WJC.
But?????????

the russian hockey reconstruction started in 2002 after they did not medal in in thier home country the year before.
Junior availabilty was priority over league play.
Since then they have been in the medals 9/11 times
3 gold 4 Silver 2 bronze

Sweden had a extended period of failure.
In 2005 they Had hockey summit
Created a new junior development approach.
With results starting to show in 2008, eliminating a 12 year drought.
Since 2008 medalled 4/5
1G 2S 1B

In 2006 US started giving CHL/USHL americans a better shot at the team. Saw a consistent jump from 2-3 to 7-8 CHL/USHL players on the roster the last 4 years.
Since 2007 medalled 3/6
1G 2B

From 2002 to 2006 finland got bronze 4 of 5 years.
After the resurgence of Russia, Sweden, USA
None.

So year to year there are really 4 teams who can win.
with entrenched systems since 2009.
You really cannot see a strong diffrence between the 4.

records during the 4 years 2009-2012
Canada
1G 2S 1B
Russia
1G 1S 1B
Sweden
1G 1S 1B
USA
1G 1B

these teams realized politics of team or media did not matter.

Politics?

We cannot afford any of that.

I often question some of the goalie decisions.
Giving visiten the second Chance?
What the heck he choked!

Subban with weak goals.
He has been the worst goalie in camp.

I want to win!
Gold only.
A silver in the group of 4 makes you average
3rd is loser.

Worse yet
2009 Gold
2010 Silver
2011 Silver
2012 Bronze Good thing USA was a major Failure this year.
I do not like the trend.
2013 ?????????


The flaw of our system!

1. Old Boys Club!
A selection pool driven by U17 and U18 Rosters
Not based on Current merit.
2. Catering to TSN!
Wanting to get at a boys from the media experts.

Just pick the best of that year from US College/ CHL.

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Old
01-03-2013, 11:04 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Bad coaching is the main problem though. Nugent-Hopkins is the best under 20 player in the world he should be playing 25-30 minutes a game PP, PK all the time.
OK, you can't have watched the game.

RNH never came off the ice...

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01-03-2013, 11:18 AM
  #103
Mr Forever
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Spoiled rich kids who get everything handed to them by their parents. They face no adversity in hockey and have no passion to speak of.

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01-03-2013, 11:23 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
Spoiled rich kids who get everything handed to them by their parents. They face no adversity in hockey and have no passion to speak of.
This is pretty ignorant. You have no idea where all these kids came from or if their parents are rich or not. Boone Jenner for one is a farm kid, haven't seen a lot of rich, spoiled kids from prarie farms in my time.

It's a short tournament and a lot of countries are improving year by year, in the grand scheme of things Canada is still very much a hockey power.

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01-03-2013, 11:24 AM
  #105
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This is just part of the natural cycle, other nations are improving.

We are still guaranteed a top-4 finish for like the 10th straight tournament which is a lot more than other nations can lay claim to.

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01-03-2013, 11:24 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
This is pretty ignorant. You have no idea where all these kids came from or if their parents are rich or not. Boone Jenner for one is a farm kid.

It's a short tournament and a lot of countries are improving year by year, in the grand scheme of things Canada is still very much a hocukey power.
If you disagree with me you clearly have little to no understanding of how hockey works in Canada.

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Old
01-03-2013, 11:38 AM
  #107
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People are saying increased level of competition? From who?
The competition has actually gone down.

First lets factor in competition. If we factor the last 6 teams in the last 20 years that have made it to the final four, you will notice it's the same old and same old. Therefore what competition has changed?

Slovakia, The Czech Republic, Finland are not as poweful as they once were. Russia has improved slightly. Only Switzerland and USA have increased substantially to merit notice. Since 1987 the competitition has stagnated and decreased.

It's not increased competition.

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01-03-2013, 11:43 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
too much money.
or not enough? How many million a year has the NHL pumped into Junior Hockey the last few years? Or where is Hockey Canada spending this money and how?

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01-03-2013, 11:44 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
If you disagree with me you clearly have little to no understanding of how hockey works in Canada.
I know what you're saying, money talks and helps kids move along, but I also know first hand there are kids that come from less than privelige and make their way to the NHL. Compared to a lot of sports, it is a lot of rich kids, but not exclusively. Read Zack Kassian's story or many others, not everyone has Cody Hodgson's wealth and privelige, and to state otherwise is ignorant. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Sometimes it takes adversity and grit to even play the sport at a high level. Guys like Joe Colborne and Mike Comrie could never pay the price fully and it hurt them, but a lot of guys went through a hell of a lot to make it and never had help from any one.

I know because I work for a company that donates equipment to these kids every year.

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01-03-2013, 11:47 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
I know what you're saying, money talks and helps kids move along, but I also know first hand there are kids that come from less than privelige and make their way to the NHL. Compared to a lot of sports, it is a lot of rich kids, but not exclusively. Read Zack Kassian's story or many others, not everyone has Cody Hodgson's wealth and privelige, and to state otherwise is ignorant. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Sometimes it takes adversity and grit to even play the sport at a high level. Guys like Joe Colborne and Mike Comrie could never pay the price fully and it hurt them, but a lot of guys went through a hell of a lot to make it and never had help from any one.

I know because I work for a company that donates equipment to these kids every year.
You're right. I'm not saying all players are like that, I'm sayig a lot of them are and it's the general attitude of hockey Canada and how much weight money and prestige hold.

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01-03-2013, 11:47 AM
  #111
Ilyeu
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Originally Posted by tmlms13 View Post
this team finished behind Kazakstan. Development is fine, **** happens
1988-1997 8 golds, it is called variance
It's funny you say that, because after that tournament, they had the 1999 Hockey Summit to find out what was wrong with Canadian hockey after going 5 straight years with a gold medal. Also experts would agree from that summit, you had your next Silvers and Gold's at the WJC.

Apparently the Hockey Experts disagree with you that things don't happen and variance isn't the issue.

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01-03-2013, 11:50 AM
  #112
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There's nothing wrong with Canadian Jr hockey.There are 72 players from the CHL in this tournament.Out of 220 players that is 1/3 of the players.The problem is that 50 are not from Canada and are being developed by HC with my tax money.
Perhaps the tournament eligability should be based on the country that the player plays in.
There are alot of great midget players in Canada that are overlooked to provide room for imports.


Last edited by black charger: 01-03-2013 at 11:51 AM. Reason: add info
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01-03-2013, 11:50 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
If you disagree with me you clearly have little to no understanding of how hockey works in Canada.
"If you disagree with me you're wrong!"

Please stop with this nonsense.

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01-03-2013, 11:51 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Bad player selection for the camp and mediocre coaching isn't going to get the job done. Hockey Canada was given carte blanche considering the lockout and they managed to do the same thing they did at the 2006 Turino Olympics: hoping that the names would win gold for Canada.

Hockey Canada needs a major overhaul; the way other countries have improved they are not getting the job done at the WJC level.
Exactly

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01-03-2013, 11:54 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Forever View Post
If you disagree with me you clearly have little to no understanding of how hockey works in Canada.
While I wouldn't paint all Canadian hockey players with that brush there is definitely some truth to it.

When I was in minor hockey and we played poorly we literally had hour practices with NO pucks. All skating drills over and over again. Now-a-days these parents who are coddling their kids will have none of that.

I used to beg and plead just so my dad would buy me an Easton Aluminum. Watched my nephew play Atom and most of these kids are using $200 Synergys. And some even have a second one as their back-up stick! What 11 year old needs that?

There are even motions by Hockey Moms trying to ban body contact in Bantam. Slowly dying are the days of rough and tough Canadian hockey.

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01-03-2013, 11:57 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
People are saying increased level of competition? From who?
The competition has actually gone down.

First lets factor in competition. If we factor the last 6 teams in the last 20 years that have made it to the final four, you will notice it's the same old and same old. Therefore what competition has changed?

Slovakia, The Czech Republic, Finland are not as poweful as they once were. Russia has improved slightly. Only Switzerland and USA have increased substantially to merit notice. Since 1987 the competitition has stagnated and decreased.

It's not increased competition.
Really? Look at this tournament in 1985:

1. Canada 5-0-2 44 GF 14 GA
2. Czechoslovakia 5-0-2 32 GF 13 GA
3. Russia 5-2-0 38 GF 17 GA
4. Finland 4-1-2 42 GF 20 GA
5. Sweden 3-4-0 32 GF 26 GA
6. USA 2-5-0 23 GF 37 GA
7. Germany 0-6-1 9 GF 44 GA
8. Poland 0-6-1 10 GF 59 GA

First thing you'll notice is Czechoslovakia has broken into two solid competitors on the world hockey stage. Second thing you'll notice is the USA was an also ran in this tournament then and now are a hockey power. Third thing you'll notice is Sweden has also come a long, long way. Poland? Replaced by a fiesty and ever-improving Swiss team. Finland hasn't gone anywhere.

3 maybe 4 of these teams even had a chance in 1985, but it was obvious Canada was going to win it. Going into this tournament there were 4 very solid, compareable teams. Canada has not gotten worse at developing players, if anything with population growth and hockey Canada they've gotten better.

The competition has quite obviously improved over the years...

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01-03-2013, 11:59 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by darkhorse686 View Post
This is just part of the natural cycle, other nations are improving.

We are still guaranteed a top-4 finish for like the 10th straight tournament which is a lot more than other nations can lay claim to.
Before the 2002 Olympics, a writer for SI wrote that hockey development had a pattern over the previous 30+ years...

- Canada would jump ahead and dominate. Other countries would then catch up.
- Canada would then re-jig their program and dominate again; other countries would then catch up.

I thought it was true then and I still do. We are in a catch up phase.

For 5 years, at the WJR's, we never lost. We put a BIG target on our back and yelled, "Come at us!" Other countries have.

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01-03-2013, 12:01 PM
  #118
Mr Forever
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Originally Posted by Matt Damon View Post
While I wouldn't paint all Canadian hockey players with that brush there is definitely some truth to it.

When I was in minor hockey and we played poorly we literally had hour practices with NO pucks. All skating drills over and over again. Now-a-days these parents who are coddling their kids will have none of that.

I used to beg and plead just so my dad would buy me an Easton Aluminum. Watched my nephew play Atom and most of these kids are using $200 Synergys. And some even have a second one as their back-up stick! What 11 year old needs that?

There are even motions by Hockey Moms trying to ban body contact in Bantam. Slowly dying are the days of rough and tough Canadian hockey.
I coach a AA team where when we try to do that the parents will complain about us and tell their kids we aren't doing anything wrong and that we are mean.

I'm serious.

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01-03-2013, 12:03 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Redscotter View Post
The loss today is partially representative of a Coaching breakdown ...

How are you not prepared (mentally) for a one-game showdown against one of your main rivals ?

Did Spott not realise that the USA would be all over the puck from the opening faceoff ? How could elite Junior A players not know this ?

I see a tendency here over the last three years - mental preparation and a generational psychology taking over Canadian hockey.

The first variable I have referred to already. The Generational Psychology stems, I think, from the fact that Hockey has become an upper-middle class sport in this Country. Now, I am comfortably UMC myself, but I come from a working class background. Most of the kids I played rep with, and most of the guys I played Junior with, were from working-class backgrounds. They were hungry and willing to work hard to chase their dreams - for some of them, at a fairly high (non-monetary) cost.

I also Assistant Coach in Minor Hockey (boys & girls), and all we see now is molly-coddling from Mothers and weak Fathers. If you force a bag-skate on kids now, the Mothers shoot you daggers afterwards.

I am not saying that UMC people do not have a work ethic, but what I am saying is that many of the have forgotten it when it comes to their kids. The last three teams are comprised of so-called "Millennials" and most sociologists have identified this cohort as narcissistic and demanding. As someone who is involved with hiring for a large company, I see this all the time in new hires.
I don't want to argue with you on this topic, but you can't bring pyschology into this. As someone who has -at least- studied in school and read up on basic pyschology and someone who is not UMC and not a "millenial" and who knows "millenials". I can't say I agree with you.

I don't think it's a generational thing. I do agree that hockey is more expensive. I did some quick research on this "millenial" thing, and think it's the same think that was classified by generation X'ers (in other words hog wash). I'm a in between generation X and millenial, not sure which one, but one of those. I can tell you millenials work as hard as my generation (whatever that is). If anything it's the current economic affairs that are the worst since 1989 that are affecting the "millenial" generation. Nothing further I have to say.

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01-03-2013, 12:04 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
I know what you're saying, money talks and helps kids move along, but I also know first hand there are kids that come from less than privelige and make their way to the NHL. Compared to a lot of sports, it is a lot of rich kids, but not exclusively. Read Zack Kassian's story or many others, not everyone has Cody Hodgson's wealth and privelige, and to state otherwise is ignorant. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Sometimes it takes adversity and grit to even play the sport at a high level. Guys like Joe Colborne and Mike Comrie could never pay the price fully and it hurt them, but a lot of guys went through a hell of a lot to make it and never had help from any one.

I know because I work for a company that donates equipment to these kids every year.
You do realize that equiptment is very little of the cost.In the GTA with all expenses taken into consideration AAA hockey costs close to $15000 yr.

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01-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #121
Mr Forever
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Originally Posted by black charger View Post
You do realize that equiptment is very little of the cost.In the GTA with all expenses taken into consideration AAA hockey costs close to $15000 yr.
Not to mention the money that some parents spend to get their kids on to u-16, u-17 teams (team Alberta, team pacific etc)

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01-03-2013, 12:16 PM
  #122
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Hockey is an expensive sport everywhere in the world.

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01-03-2013, 12:21 PM
  #123
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Combination of factors:
1. Exaggeration of impact of recent losses due to a 'gold or bust' mentality
2. Improvement of European development programs
3. Mediocre coaching in recent years
4. Structure of WJC tournament means a single bad game can have a tremendous impact on your success in the tournament

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01-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #124
Reign Nateo
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You do realize that equiptment is very little of the cost.In the GTA with all expenses taken into consideration AAA hockey costs close to $15000 yr.
Yes I realize it's expensive, but it's not only rich kids playing, there's simply not enough rich kids to prove your point. Maybe in Toronto it's the elite that can send their kids to special schools. But I have nephews in an elite hockey school in Alberta and their family is not elite or wealthy.

It can be done and is done all the time.

Not saying it isn't helpful and a sport dominated by families with cash, but it's not only those kids as my argument stated all along.

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01-03-2013, 12:23 PM
  #125
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Really?

First thing you'll notice is Czechoslovakia has broken into two solid competitors on the world hockey stage. Second thing you'll notice is the USA was an also ran in this tournament then and now are a hockey power. Third thing you'll notice is Sweden has also come a long, long way. Poland? Replaced by a fiesty and ever-improving Swiss team. Finland hasn't gone anywhere.

3 maybe 4 of these teams even had a chance in 1985, but it was obvious Canada was going to win it. Going into this tournament there were 4 very solid, compareable teams. Canada has not gotten worse at developing players, if anything with population growth and hockey Canada they've gotten better.

The competition has quite obviously improved over the years...
Well first off, I've been following the juniors since 1990. I've been keeping tract of stats since then to and expert commentary. Finally, recently I've done a complete World Junior history review dating back all the way to the tournament up till 2000.

So "really" yes.. really.

You have many generalizations wrong.

- Czechoslovakia was a strong country because they were under a structured country, with lots of funding for hockey. When the countries broke, the Czechs had a decade or so of strong juniors before their junior system started falling apart. Slovakia has remained fairly up and down.

- I remember a quote from USA Hockey a long time ago. "We didn't know what the Juionrs were". This was back in 1998. Even if my memory serves me wrong on the quote; certainly then USA hockey up until about 2002 were a weak organization in the junior camp. They did produce quality talent, they did finish on the off occasion 2nd place. Overall though, they had 4th to 7th spots. It wasn't until the NTDP program took off they started getting strides. The NTDP also had a second phase which is what we see today. The early NTDP program was still shaky, but now after many revisions over the years (Americans constantly developing it, not just sitting on their backs saying "hey we have a good program") they have been fine tuning it. The excellent young units you see out there, is from years of hard work to get a system in place.

- Sweden was dominant in the WJC up until the end of the last decade. They went for over a decade of being average at best. Even TSN a few years ago mentioned this. It wasn't until recently, 2007 and on, that Sweden began changing their philosophy.

- Finland has decreased in talent. You notice it trickling into their International games. I'll be honest though, I'm not sure where they are headed, haven't been keeping track with them.

- You mention population growth, while articles mention that population growth from other countries have no interest in Hockey. Others have mentioned that Hockey growth is stagnanting because it's too expensive. Population growth has to do with immigration in this country, and most immigrants are looking at soccer, basketball and cricket as their alternative sport.

- Finally, competition? You mention the same teams over the last 20 years that are still remotely competitive today. Where has competition taken place? What new countries have come to compete (Just the swiss)? It's still relatively the same circle of nations that's been competing the last 50 years. You wouldn't call women's hockey competitive, would you if only USA and Canada were winning?


Last edited by Ilyeu: 01-03-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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