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01-03-2013, 11:09 AM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The Canucks are fine for salary this year. 2.4m under.


I think if the Leafs aren't serious, they should absolutely walk away. There's no way the Leafs get Luongo for a song. The enmity between these GMs will ensure it. Either these two teams make a _fair_ deal, no discount, or it doesn't get done.


As an aside, I desperately want a season because I am _very_ curious to see what the Leafs will do if they should not get Luongo. Extremely interested to see this unfold sans trade.
Probably lose and use the 1st we didn't give for Luongo to draft a center.

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01-03-2013, 11:15 AM
  #802
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With the 2 buyout clause in the CBA (proposed) that opens the door wide for Luongo to FLA. They can include any salary dump they want and Van can then amnesty it.

Everybody is now happy.

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01-03-2013, 11:22 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
With the 2 buyout clause in the CBA (proposed) that opens the door wide for Luongo to FLA. They can include any salary dump they want and Van can then amnesty it.

Everybody is now happy.
2 free buyouts? Link?

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01-03-2013, 11:22 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Seriously? Please point out where i said Luongo wasn't worth a 1st. I DO NOT CARE about past trades. What i said was, Burke will trade for Luongo if it works for him. If he doesn't want to move his 1st....he won't. If he doesn't want to move Gardiner....he won't. That does not in any way mean that Luongo is only worth what TO is offering, it does however mean that is all TO is willing to pay.

If another team is going to offer a package to Gillis' liking, then boom....he trades him there. You need to understand that anything being offered has more to do with what a team can give up than it does about personal feelings toward Luongo.



Oh great, so Burke trades for what works for him. Meaning he can offer anything and he is justified in doing so. Meaning, TO fans coming here playing armchair GM are also justified in offering anything (emulating Burke). This is an unassailable position. Why? Because there's little to no objectivity to the position. No wonder Canucks fans and Leafs fans cannot agree? It's not based on precedent (doesn't matter if you care about past trades or not).



What gets this deal done: The closer each side gets to fair, which may be more than the max Burke is willing to offer, and far less than the least Gillis is willing to accept. That's where a trade gets done. With any GM in fact. Not each GM hunkering down their positions - because in such a case, the haves always beat the have nots simply due to being able to utilize their asset in the meantime. That in itself is value.



But Lu wants out, so how to we reconcile this? I think if we argued precedent, the deal would be hashed out on this board, but some fans don't want to do that because it infringes on their position that GMs deal in isolation. That each side sets its price and waits for the other to cave... This is not how deals for important players go down. The have nots hardballing is not going to make them haves. At some point, somebody has to realize this.


I'm still waiting for you to point out where I called Leafs fans "idiots".

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01-03-2013, 11:26 AM
  #805
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Probably lose and use the 1st we didn't give for Luongo to draft a center.


Assuming that 1st line C prospect is there to be had when the Leafs pick. Could be that the leafs lose, draft high and still don't get their C, just like this past year. Time will tell I guess, but wouldn't that be something? Can't wait to see how it all unfolds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
With the 2 buyout clause in the CBA (proposed) that opens the door wide for Luongo to FLA. They can include any salary dump they want and Van can then amnesty it.

Everybody is now happy.


I was thinking the same. Luongo to FLA just got a whole lot easier.

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01-03-2013, 11:32 AM
  #806
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Komisarek is a buyout no doubt
I'm not sure about that anymore. I think Liles is a better buyout, if he can't be moved. I don't think he plays out his contract here, and surely in the next year or two his offence can be replaced by some combination of Kotska, Ranger, Reilly, Holzer, and at a much more cap effective rate.

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01-03-2013, 11:33 AM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
2 free buyouts? Link?
I suck at linking, there is a Sportsnet link on the Leafsboard. (CBA thread)

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01-03-2013, 11:34 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
2 free buyouts? Link?

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Another detail emerging: NHL has upped its compliance buyout offer to 2 per team, up from 1 prior to 2013-14 season.

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01-03-2013, 11:35 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Oh great, so Burke trades for what works for him. Meaning he can offer anything and he is justified in doing so. Meaning, TO fans coming here playing armchair GM are also justified in offering anything (emulating Burke). This is an unassailable position. Why? Because there's little to no objectivity to the position. No wonder Canucks fans and Leafs fans cannot agree? It's not based on precedent (doesn't matter if you care about past trades or not).



What gets this deal done: The closer each side gets to fair, which may be more than the max Burke is willing to offer, and far less than the least Gillis is willing to accept. That's where a trade gets done. With any GM in fact. Not each GM hunkering down their positions - because in such a case, the haves always beat the have nots simply due to being able to utilize their asset in the meantime. That in itself is value.



But Lu wants out, so how to we reconcile this? I think if we argued precedent, the deal would be hashed out on this board, but some fans don't want to do that because it infringes on their position that GMs deal in isolation. That each side sets its price and waits for the other to cave... This is not how deals for important players go down. The have nots hardballing is not going to make them haves. At some point, somebody has to realize this.


I'm still waiting for you to point out where I called Leafs fans "idiots".
I will openly apologise, i think the term was "crazy". It was on your board in the Luongo thread, but as you've stated i shoudn't be seen in there anymore, i've stayed out.

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01-03-2013, 11:38 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Oh great, so Burke trades for what works for him. Meaning he can offer anything and he is justified in doing so. Meaning, TO fans coming here playing armchair GM are also justified in offering anything (emulating Burke). This is an unassailable position. Why? Because there's little to no objectivity to the position. No wonder Canucks fans and Leafs fans cannot agree? It's not based on precedent (doesn't matter if you care about past trades or not).



What gets this deal done: The closer each side gets to fair, which may be more than the max Burke is willing to offer, and far less than the least Gillis is willing to accept. That's where a trade gets done. With any GM in fact. Not each GM hunkering down their positions - because in such a case, the haves always beat the have nots simply due to being able to utilize their asset in the meantime. That in itself is value.



But Lu wants out, so how to we reconcile this? I think if we argued precedent, the deal would be hashed out on this board, but some fans don't want to do that because it infringes on their position that GMs deal in isolation. That each side sets its price and waits for the other to cave... This is not how deals for important players go down. The have nots hardballing is not going to make them haves. At some point, somebody has to realize this.


I'm still waiting for you to point out where I called Leafs fans "idiots".
And then there are those times in all aspects of life (real estate, cars...etc) where one party knows what it can pay, and no matter how much they may need the item, the price is just to high and they walk away.

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01-03-2013, 11:51 AM
  #811
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On paper, the Canucks do not look ready to hit the ice. They have an aging, battered core. There are serious roster issues. So, Gillis cannot afford to roll the dice on prospects or picks. He is out of time. This core group will fall out of contention if the cap falls to the imagined sixty million because they need a stronger supporting cast now, not a cheaper one!

The future is now for the Canucks. If Gillis trades for potential he weakens the teram. Non roster return is not a viable option. The Canucks need help now and can only accept roster players in any trades. Not only this, but they need high calibre players capable of contributing immediately. Luongo must return at least a useful piece or else why weaken goaltending? Teams interested in Luongo should expect painful cost. Gillis must get someone good enough to step into Vancouver's line-up in a key role.

I do not think Gillis understands the term "stacking for a run". I don't really expect him to attempt it now. He doesn't have the pieces to deal off, anyway. I think he stands pat to get this group a last playoff run. They'll make the playoffs and the imminent changes will give them some sense of immediacy. Retaining Vignault suggests they aren't changing their approach.

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01-03-2013, 11:52 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Oh great, so Burke trades for what works for him. Meaning he can offer anything and he is justified in doing so. Meaning, TO fans coming here playing armchair GM are also justified in offering anything (emulating Burke). This is an unassailable position. Why? Because there's little to no objectivity to the position. No wonder Canucks fans and Leafs fans cannot agree? It's not based on precedent (doesn't matter if you care about past trades or not).
Yes, Burke can make any offer that he wants to, and feels he can afford. Gillis can choose to accept that trade, or not, and believe me it has nothing to do with what some posters on an internet forum think the value is.

The lower the cap, the greater the value is for cap space, and the lower the value might be on players with long-term, high dollar deals, who have few suitors. That is a simple reality, no matter how vested one might be in winning the internet argument.

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01-03-2013, 11:57 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
And then there are those times in all aspects of life (real estate, cars...etc) where one party knows what it can pay, and no matter how much they may need the item, the price is just to high and they walk away.

Then Burke shouldn't be phoning. There is a narrative here that Burke can't afford what's being asked, and some leafs fans like yourself have chosen to emulate that stance, but it does not follow. To my recollection, Burke has made 3 separate offers, the latest being when he raised his offer to challenge that of the Oilers. Does this seem like someone resigned to not having enough to give?


Your narrative and what is occurring do not align. Understand this fact.

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01-03-2013, 12:08 PM
  #814
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Kulemin is much better than Raymond
Actually no he's not. Over the past 3 years offensively they are comparable (Raymond slightly better in points per game). Defensively Raymond has also been slightly better.

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01-03-2013, 12:14 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Yes, Burke can make any offer that he wants to, and feels he can afford. Gillis can choose to accept that trade, or not, and believe me it has nothing to do with what some posters on an internet forum think the value is.

The lower the cap, the greater the value is for cap space, and the lower the value might be on players with long-term, high dollar deals, who have few suitors. That is a simple reality, no matter how vested one might be in winning the internet argument.


What's the reality on what is being offered? What do they base the deal on? Can Gillis ask for 20 1st rounders and be justified in his asking price, simply because he thinks that's what Lu should garner? Likewise, does Burke offer a ham sandwich and a Bozak simply because he can? Or are both GMs working off some precedent, some baseline of prior trades, to at least start to find a common ground? Which is more likely?



If Burke isn't offering something that is _fair_, based on precedent, why bother calling at all? To get laughed at? Why bother increasing your offer after EDM has entered the arena? He made his best stab at buying the car but found out he could do better, just by chance, when EDM came along... ?? And here I was thinking Burke had already offered everything he could afford? Is that reality? Is that "winning the internetz"??

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01-03-2013, 12:18 PM
  #816
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Actually no he's not. Over the past 3 years offensively they are comparable (Raymond slightly better in points per game). Defensively Raymond has also been slightly better.
Kulemin has a much better all around game. Kulemin is 6'2'' and 235 lbs. He throws monster hits.

Raymond is a one dimensional speedster type player. When Raymond is not scoring, he's not doing anything. Raymond's scoring also coincides with Kesler's scoring. In other words, without Kesler feeding Raymond points, he just hasn't been as good. There's a reason Raymond was given a pay cut last year.

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01-03-2013, 12:19 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Then Burke shouldn't be phoning. There is a narrative here that Burke can't afford what's being asked, and some leafs fans like yourself have chosen to emulate that stance, but it does not follow. To my recollection, Burke has made 3 separate offers, the latest being when he raised his offer to challenge that of the Oilers. Does this seem like someone resigned to not having enough to give?


Your narrative and what is occurring do not align. Understand this fact.
When your offer is the highest, you don't up it until it gets beat.I think you are missing the point. The Leafs CAN NOT afford Gillis' price at the draft. Burke has a top limit as to where he will go, now obviously, he isn't going to throw it right out there.

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01-03-2013, 12:21 PM
  #818
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hockey centreal last night said it's already a done deal if thats true i guess we will find out soon

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01-03-2013, 12:23 PM
  #819
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hockey centreal last night said it's already a done deal if thats true i guess we will find out soon
What is...a Luongo trade? If so, what is FLA sending back?

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01-03-2013, 12:23 PM
  #820
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Everyone: dial it down a bit. Some of you are going over the line with arguing the poster, and not arguing the post.

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01-03-2013, 12:25 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
Kulemin has a much better all around game. Kulemin is 6'2'' and 235 lbs. He throws monster hits.

Raymond is a one dimensional speedster type player. When Raymond is not scoring, he's not doing anything. Raymond's scoring also coincides with Kesler's scoring. In other words, without Kesler feeding Raymond points, he just hasn't been as good. There's a reason Raymond was given a pay cut last year.
You couldn't be more wrong, except by saying that Kulemin throws monster hits.

Kulemin is bigger and more physical. Raymond is speedier. Both are equal offensively, and defensively. I don't get how Raymond is one dimensional when he's one of our top defensive forwards and a staple on the PK. The two players are more alike that you seem willing to admit, and if they are involved in a Luongo trade their involvement should cancel eachother out,


Last edited by Chalupa Batman: 01-03-2013 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Flaming - please see my warning above.
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01-03-2013, 12:27 PM
  #822
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Probably lose and use the 1st we didn't give for Luongo to draft a center.
That's exactly it. To me the Leafs are better off not doing this deal.

Luongo is an aging goalie and the Leafs are not contenders. It's not a match made in heaven. The Leafs need a goalie, but not at any cost.

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01-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #823
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What is...a Luongo trade? If so, what is FLA sending back?
IIRC Doug MacLean was talking about a Kadri+ for Luongo deal. I'm hoping he doesn't know what he's talking about because an enigmatic prospect who would clash with our coach is a poor poor trade.

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01-03-2013, 12:30 PM
  #824
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What is...a Luongo trade? If so, what is FLA sending back?
why so sure it's the panthers ? they didn't mention the return but millard had teweeted about a deal involing kadri and bozak so I suspect thats what they are hinting at

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01-03-2013, 12:33 PM
  #825
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On paper, the Canucks do not look ready to hit the ice. They have an aging, battered core. There are serious roster issues. So, Gillis cannot afford to roll the dice on prospects or picks. He is out of time. This core group will fall out of contention if the cap falls to the imagined sixty million because they need a stronger supporting cast now, not a cheaper one!

The future is now for the Canucks. If Gillis trades for potential he weakens the teram. Non roster return is not a viable option. The Canucks need help now and can only accept roster players in any trades. Not only this, but they need high calibre players capable of contributing immediately. Luongo must return at least a useful piece or else why weaken goaltending? Teams interested in Luongo should expect painful cost. Gillis must get someone good enough to step into Vancouver's line-up in a key role.

I do not think Gillis understands the term "stacking for a run". I don't really expect him to attempt it now. He doesn't have the pieces to deal off, anyway. I think he stands pat to get this group a last playoff run. They'll make the playoffs and the imminent changes will give them some sense of immediacy. Retaining Vignault suggests they aren't changing their approach.
You make it sound as though we are on the cusp of a swan song. Our core is only two years removed from a cup run and managed to scrap together a second President's Trophy with Kesler injured the majority of the season and Edler playing like garbage. We are more than capable of a encore run from 2011 with a healthy squad even if Luongo did not return a roster player of any particular merit.

While the potential reduction to sixty million may prevent a hat trick of President Trophies. We will finish top three in the West and likely top five overall. The return for our goalie does not make or break this team.

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