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Globe Article on Cash Crunch: Good Luck Marc Bergevin

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01-03-2013, 01:33 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
Right, but the point is the make whole amount shouldn't count against the cap...
This is what I was getting at. The make whole will help the players recoup some money lost, but would the results of going to the 50/50 split help reduce the players salary against the cap? That is where I get confused.

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01-03-2013, 01:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Le Tricolore View Post
If he scores 20 goals in a shortened season, that would be pretty impressive!

I guess 10 goals in 48 games would be what we'd be looking for.
12-15 would reaffirm he is "back".

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01-03-2013, 01:41 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Even if Bourque decides to pull up his socks for a few weeks, I'd still buy him out. There always seem to be decent wingers available every year, and if we need to we can make a trade, even if we have to give up an asset or to.

We can do better even if we have to do without for a year or so.
Not too many 27 goal/year 6'2" wingers on the UFA market for 3.3 mil/year. Not on this planet anyways.

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01-03-2013, 01:52 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
This is what I was getting at. The make whole will help the players recoup some money lost, but would the results of going to the 50/50 split help reduce the players salary against the cap? That is where I get confused.
Hope this is comprehensible:

Essentially, there's no immediate impact on the players salary against the cap. This year, they have both agreed it will remain what it was slated to be - 70 M.

Next year's 2013-14 cap number is a huge point of contention right now. The NHL has proposed 60 M. The players want 65 M. The reason why it's a point of contention is that the salary cap is always calculated based on the revenues of the previous season...but since 2012-13 will have diminished revenues due to so many games being cancelled, they can't use the normal formula. So they are going to go with a ''random'' number basically.

Come 2014-15, the ''normal formula'' will be used again. That formula was this under the last agreement: Players share of HRR (57%) * revenue (3.3 B in 2011-12) / 30 (because there are 30 teams)...that would give a total that represented the ''midpoint''. Add 8 M for salary cap. Substract 8 M for the salary floor. It should be a similar formula in the new agreement.

The cap is not really impacted by the 50/50 share that is coming.

The way the NHL proceeds with the calculation of that 50/50 share is this:

They count HRR for the completed season. Every teams revenues, the leagues revenues, etc. It all goes into 1 pot.

They count players salaries for that season for the whole 700 + players.

The salaries of those 700+ players will have to represent 50% of HRR from the 30 teams+global league revenues.

If it's more than 50%, then the players make up the difference to get to 50% via their escrow payments to the league. Usually at the start of each season, players are forced to put a certain % of their salary in escrow.

If it's less than 50%, then the owners ''pay'' the players money so it's a true 50/50 split.

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01-03-2013, 02:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Absolutely. We did give Bourque a chance, that was what last season was all about and he failed.

I wouldn't want him even if he pans out, I'd be looking to trade him for someone else.

We've lost some good players over the years for nothing, players that I miss but Bourque I'd never miss.
We had him for 38 games under a coach we've already fired, on a cellar-dwelling team.

If that's your idea of a reasonable chance, then clearly we're not seeing eye-to-eye on the fundamental issue here.

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01-03-2013, 02:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
We had him for 38 games under a coach we've already fired, on a cellar-dwelling team.

If that's your idea of a reasonable chance, then clearly we're not seeing eye-to-eye on the fundamental issue here.
There were lots of new players here last year. Kaberle, Cole, Diaz, Emelin, Leblanc, Geoffrion and others and I don't feel that way about them. They all played liked they wanted to be here, like they had pride and a level of professionalism that Bourque lacked.

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01-03-2013, 02:43 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
There were lots of new players here last year. Kaberle, Cole, Diaz, Emelin, Leblanc, Geoffrion and others and I don't feel that way about them. They all played liked they wanted to be here, like they had pride and a level of professionalism that Bourque lacked.
How did he lack pride or professionalism?

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01-03-2013, 02:52 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Hope this is comprehensible:

Essentially, there's no immediate impact on the players salary against the cap. This year, they have both agreed it will remain what it was slated to be - 70 M.

Next year's 2013-14 cap number is a huge point of contention right now. The NHL has proposed 60 M. The players want 65 M. The reason why it's a point of contention is that the salary cap is always calculated based on the revenues of the previous season...but since 2012-13 will have diminished revenues due to so many games being cancelled, they can't use the normal formula. So they are going to go with a ''random'' number basically.

Come 2014-15, the ''normal formula'' will be used again. That formula was this under the last agreement: Players share of HRR (57%) * revenue (3.3 B in 2011-12) / 30 (because there are 30 teams)...that would give a total that represented the ''midpoint''. Add 8 M for salary cap. Substract 8 M for the salary floor. It should be a similar formula in the new agreement.

The cap is not really impacted by the 50/50 share that is coming.

The way the NHL proceeds with the calculation of that 50/50 share is this:

They count HRR for the completed season. Every teams revenues, the leagues revenues, etc. It all goes into 1 pot.

They count players salaries for that season for the whole 700 + players.

The salaries of those 700+ players will have to represent 50% of HRR from the 30 teams+global league revenues.

If it's more than 50%, then the players make up the difference to get to 50% via their escrow payments to the league. Usually at the start of each season, players are forced to put a certain % of their salary in escrow.

If it's less than 50%, then the owners ''pay'' the players money so it's a true 50/50 split.
Got it now, thanks.

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01-03-2013, 02:53 PM
  #59
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Assuming regular buyouts are allowed still, with 2 amnesty buyouts, we are in no trouble whatsoever. I'm not sure Molson will pony up the cash to make these moves though. I'm sure we'll use the amnesty buyouts, but additional buyouts probably aren't in the cards.

This helps us keep are currently putrid roster together, it won't help us get better in the foreseeable future.

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01-03-2013, 03:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Assuming regular buyouts are allowed still, with 2 amnesty buyouts, we are in no trouble whatsoever. I'm not sure Molson will pony up the cash to make these moves though. I'm sure we'll use the amnesty buyouts, but additional buyouts probably aren't in the cards.

This helps us keep are currently putrid roster together, it won't help us get better in the foreseeable future.
Not sure how our roster is putrid. It's as good or better than 2/3 of NHL teams. Just had a real crappy year last year with a lot of things going wrong...

-lost a ridiculous amount of 1 goal games
-PP dropped dramatically
-big clusters of injuries on defense to start and playing 4 rookies
-firing Martin and his replacement being much worse

If the team was truly a 15th place team the GF/GA would have had a much bigger gap.

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01-03-2013, 03:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
There were lots of new players here last year. Kaberle, Cole, Diaz, Emelin, Leblanc, Geoffrion and others and I don't feel that way about them. They all played liked they wanted to be here, like they had pride and a level of professionalism that Bourque lacked.
If Bourque had no problems he would have never been traded to us. Just like how if Cammy had no problems he would have never been dumped like a sack of potatoes.

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01-03-2013, 03:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Not sure how our roster is putrid. It's as good or better than 2/3 of NHL teams. Just had a real crappy year last year with a lot of things going wrong...

-lost a ridiculous amount of 1 goal games
-PP dropped dramatically
-big clusters of injuries on defense to start and playing 4 rookies
-firing Martin and his replacement being much worse

If the team was truly a 15th place team the GF/GA would have had a much bigger gap.
In no way, shape or form is our roster better than 2/3 of NHL teams. We are weak at several positions. I fully expect us to be in the bottom 10 teams again this year.

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01-03-2013, 03:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
If Bourque had no problems he would have never been traded to us. Just like how if Cammy had no problems he would have never been dumped like a sack of potatoes.
Calgary is the same team that dumped Phaneuf and he's come back somewhat in Toronto. Probably a bit overpaid but he had a pretty good year last year.

Bourque can be a bit enigmatic but in Calgary he produced at a near 30 goal pace and brought a physical edge. If we can get 75-80% of that at 3.3 mil/year on the 2nd or 3rd line it's a great bargain. That's the part some can't put in their thick skull.

Plus having a new GM and coaching staff he is agood "project" player for them, like Kaberle. Both are capoable of so much more than in 11-12.

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01-03-2013, 03:35 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
In no way, shape or form is our roster better than 2/3 of NHL teams. We are weak at several positions. I fully expect us to be in the bottom 10 teams again this year.
I said as good or better. That means 10 are clearly better and we are comparable to the middle 10, so 11th to 20th depeding on a slew of factors. In 09-10 and 10-11 we had 88 and 96 points and last year 78 despite adding Cole, Diaz, Emelin and the development of Pacioretty and Desharnais.

The talent didn't drop, it was just a "Murphy's law" type season where everything that could go wrong did. We still have a top 10 goalie, lots of skill on defense and a solid group of forwards with some size, grit, skill and role players.

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01-03-2013, 03:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Calgary is the same team that dumped Phaneuf and he's come back somewhat in Toronto. Probably a bit overpaid but he had a pretty good year last year.

Bourque can be a bit enigmatic but in Calgary he produced at a near 30 goal pace and brought a physical edge. If we can get 75-80% of that at 3.3 mil/year on the 2nd or 3rd line it's a great bargain. That's the part some can't put in their thick skull.

Plus having a new GM and coaching staff he is agood "project" player for them, like Kaberle. Both are capoable of so much more than in 11-12.
I agree entirely.

Toronto traded a pile of junk spare parts for Phaneuf who is still a top pairing dman whether we hate Toronto or not.

Like you said Bourque could probably sit on our third line and get close to 20 goals for a paltry 3.3 million. I don't see a downside to that honestly, hell we just gave Prust 2.5 million to be a 3rd liner and I didn't see the same outrage. Kaberle too is still a top 4 dman who can get us 40 points and dish nicely on the pp, people seem to be freaking out over nothing. If Kaberle hit the market again he would still command atleast 3 million so what is the big deal? I feel quite comfortable with our lineup (once Subban gets signed) and think we have a very solid mix of youth and veteran talent that will help the incoming prospects like Galchenyuk, Galagher, Tinordi, Beaulieu etc.

I think we should buy out Gomez, and if there is a second buyout option we should save it and rate the players at the end of the season. If Markov or Gionta are a untradeable disaster use it on one of them.

edit: Was Bourque not injured and get some sort of surgery at the end of last season? I for one would like to see how he bounces back before shipping him out the door, who knows how the guy could turn it around.

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01-03-2013, 05:32 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Assuming regular buyouts are allowed still, with 2 amnesty buyouts, we are in no trouble whatsoever. I'm not sure Molson will pony up the cash to make these moves though. I'm sure we'll use the amnesty buyouts, but additional buyouts probably aren't in the cards.

This helps us keep are currently putrid roster together, it won't help us get better in the foreseeable future.
pet peeve : It's called a compliance buyout

so that teams can comply to a new set of rules... not to get pardon for bad contracts, although I know many wish to see it this way.

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01-03-2013, 06:04 PM
  #67
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As Far as im concerned, this is our lineup when all is said and done for this season.

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole

Galchenyuk - Plekanec - Gionta

Bourque - Eller - Moen

Prust - Nokelainen - Armstrong


Gorges - Subban

Markov - Emelin

Boullion - Diaz


Price

Budaj

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01-03-2013, 06:24 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Not too many 27 goal/year 6'2" wingers on the UFA market for 3.3 mil/year. Not on this planet anyways.
True, I would rather have Bourque at 3.3M than Cammy at 6.0M the way he was playing ( afraid of his own shadow).

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01-03-2013, 07:38 PM
  #69
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Perhaps a more in-depth analysis that Mirtle, with free agents, impacts on the cap and so on, and for most teams here:

Amnesty Buyout: Are the Habs the Most Desperate Team?

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01-04-2013, 06:47 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
pet peeve : It's called a compliance buyout

so that teams can comply to a new set of rules... not to get pardon for bad contracts, although I know many wish to see it this way.
I couldn't care less about arguing semantics with you.

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01-04-2013, 07:39 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Perhaps a more in-depth analysis that Mirtle, with free agents, impacts on the cap and so on, and for most teams here:

Amnesty Buyout: Are the Habs the Most Desperate Team?
If the Habs just had one and would buy out Gomez, after that they have most of their regulars(14) signed for 52 mil, that includes everybody but Subban Desharnais Armstrong White Budaj Nokelainen Bouillon Weber, all but DD and Subban are sub 1 mil players. My guess is Subban and DD add up to 8 mil, that leaves 3-5 mil to fill 4-6 spots.

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01-04-2013, 08:30 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If the Habs just had one and would buy out Gomez, after that they have most of their regulars(14) signed for 52 mil, that includes everybody but Subban Desharnais Armstrong White Budaj Nokelainen Bouillon Weber, all but DD and Subban are sub 1 mil players. My guess is Subban and DD add up to 8 mil, that leaves 3-5 mil to fill 4-6 spots.
Thats only if the players get there way and its a 65 cap. Its will probably be split so 2.5 mil for 4-6 spots. 1 more move would have to be done. The best situation for us would be a 65 cap with 1 buyout. We can ice the same team with Markov Karb Gionta all UFA the next year.

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01-04-2013, 08:41 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If the Habs just had one and would buy out Gomez, after that they have most of their regulars(14) signed for 52 mil, that includes everybody but Subban Desharnais Armstrong White Budaj Nokelainen Bouillon Weber, all but DD and Subban are sub 1 mil players. My guess is Subban and DD add up to 8 mil, that leaves 3-5 mil to fill 4-6 spots.
Are you including Galchenyuk at 3mil? I'd rather not see him in the NHL until he's 20, but from Bergevin's comments, it seems likely that he'll be in Montreal next season at the latest.

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01-04-2013, 09:11 AM
  #74
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Are you including Galchenyuk at 3mil? I'd rather not see him in the NHL until he's 20, but from Bergevin's comments, it seems likely that he'll be in Montreal next season at the latest.
Galchenyuk's cap hit will be just over 1 mil(925k plus 92.5k) once he cracks the NHL roster. His bonuses will only apply if he earns them. 11-12 was the exception to this as it was the last year of a CBA. If his bonuses say in 13-14 put us over the cap we can carry them over to 14-15(where a pile of money comes off the books...Gionta Markov Kaberle etc

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01-04-2013, 09:18 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Are you including Galchenyuk at 3mil? I'd rather not see him in the NHL until he's 20, but from Bergevin's comments, it seems likely that he'll be in Montreal next season at the latest.
What did Bergevin say?

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