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Old
01-03-2013, 11:59 AM
  #876
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^^^ Seriously, a DOI at this point will scuttle the season and actually would probably put a October 10 start date to next season in jeopardy as well.

Time for the owners to **** or get off the pot.

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01-03-2013, 12:46 PM
  #877
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I am not so certain that the PA will get its 700 votes to disclaim again. There are allot of grumblings from players who want this thing to get done and some have said that the deal looks "pretty good" as it is.

I stick by the 1/11 date (1/12 actually). The NHLPA has until then to respond legally to the NHL's complaint (not sure if complaint is the right word).

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01-03-2013, 12:50 PM
  #878
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Well, at least we'll know by today!

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01-03-2013, 01:36 PM
  #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am not so certain that the PA will get its 700 votes to disclaim again. There are allot of grumblings from players who want this thing to get done and some have said that the deal looks "pretty good" as it is.

I stick by the 1/11 date (1/12 actually). The NHLPA has until then to respond legally to the NHL's complaint (not sure if complaint is the right word).
I think it is time for the owners to say to the NHLPA, "You have our best and final offer.", and mean it this time.

I think that there are enough moderates in the NHLPA that would want an up or down vote on what is currently on the table.

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01-03-2013, 01:51 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I think it is time for the owners to say to the NHLPA, "You have our best and final offer.", and mean it this time.

I think that there are enough moderates in the NHLPA that would want an up or down vote on what is currently on the table.
I agree completely.

An up or down vote on what is being offered (with a few tweaks which both sides admit need to take place) should just get a deal done.

My only problem with the owners giving another final offer ultimatum is that it could be seen as an act of arrogance as well as another boy who cried wolf scenario. I am not certain that it would be taken seriously or at least until it was too late to salvage this season which I know for certain both sides want to see happen.

Lets hope that the moderate voices win the day.

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01-03-2013, 02:49 PM
  #881
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I would love to see the PA go up for vote on disclaimer of interest and see the union reject it. What kinda mess would ensue from that? Lets see how ****ed up we can make this situation!

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01-03-2013, 04:48 PM
  #882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am not so certain that the PA will get its 700 votes to disclaim again. There are allot of grumblings from players who want this thing to get done and some have said that the deal looks "pretty good" as it is.

I stick by the 1/11 date (1/12 actually). The NHLPA has until then to respond legally to the NHL's complaint (not sure if complaint is the right word).
The judge has already requested a "status conference" with the NHL/NHLPA on Monday, 1/7 at 9:30 am. I hope the NHLPA shows up on time.

1/11 is the "drop-dead" date by the NHL. They must cancel the season on the 12th or the NHL will lose all credibility. I expect Fehr to recommend that the players test that date and wait for the deal that is offered after 1/11. Should be 1 more week of shenanigans.

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01-03-2013, 07:19 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
The judge has already requested a "status conference" with the NHL/NHLPA on Monday, 1/7 at 9:30 am. I hope the NHLPA shows up on time.

1/11 is the "drop-dead" date by the NHL. They must cancel the season on the 12th or the NHL will lose all credibility. I expect Fehr to recommend that the players test that date and wait for the deal that is offered after 1/11. Should be 1 more week of shenanigans.
That's right.

My reference to 1/11 goes back to what I had posted a few weeks ago before the judges etc.

It is interesting how things work out.

I am hoping that we avoid one more week of shenanigans but if that is all that there is then I guess its better than 8 more months of it.

Fingers crossed.

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01-03-2013, 08:43 PM
  #884
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Player agent Andy Scott tweeted that a few sources told him a deal would be reached tomorrow, then a couple hours later, after he was gaining a lot of attention for it, backpedaled: "Bombarded by email after tweet for deal tmrw. Now told serious hurdles still remain. Eternal optimism may have gotten best of a few sources."

https://twitter.com/Andy_Scott15

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01-03-2013, 08:51 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I agree completely.

An up or down vote on what is being offered (with a few tweaks which both sides admit need to take place) should just get a deal done.

My only problem with the owners giving another final offer ultimatum is that it could be seen as an act of arrogance as well as another boy who cried wolf scenario. I am not certain that it would be taken seriously or at least until it was too late to salvage this season which I know for certain both sides want to see happen.

Lets hope that the moderate voices win the day.
I see the crying wolf thing as a problem, but there does come a time in a tough negotiation that the other side does indeed have your best and final offer. If the owners are at that point, they should just send some of the more moderate owners into the room and be honest with the players.

The little extras that the players want, is that a hill they want the season to die on?

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01-03-2013, 11:08 PM
  #886
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A pretty good summary at what the hold-up is.

Talks going from embarrassing to worse

Given that there are still "7 to 8 unresolved issues" with the three biggest ones being 2nd year salary caps, pension plans, and caps on player contracts, is there enough time within the next two days to get a settlement?

I say two days because the players WILL give the union executives the go-ahead to disclaim, and they WILL disclaim this time. And that will scuttle the season, which is all I care about at this time.

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01-04-2013, 12:24 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
.
.
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A pretty good summary at what the hold-up is.

Talks going from embarrassing to worse

Given that there are still "7 to 8 unresolved issues" with the three biggest ones being 2nd year salary caps, pension plans, and caps on player contracts, is there enough time within the next two days to get a settlement?

I say two days because the players WILL give the union executives the go-ahead to disclaim, and they WILL disclaim this time. And that will scuttle the season, which is all I care about at this time.
Some are saying that a small group inside the PA are gathering momentum to force a draw vote (or no vote) on DOI and that they might actually have the ability to get things done.

I am of the opinion that the quickest way to get over an impasse would be to file the DOI, fire Fehr, reorganize and sign a deal. I don't know. I still believe that this will get done and that the idea of there being more than 2 things standing in between a deal and not is without merit.

But that is me.

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01-04-2013, 12:27 AM
  #888
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Here is another good summary with slightly different takes to enumerate some of the hold-up issues:

There's progress, hiccups in NHL lockout

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01-04-2013, 12:33 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Some are saying that a small group inside the PA are gathering momentum to force a draw vote (or no vote) on DOI and that they might actually have the ability to get things done.

I am of the opinion that the quickest way to get over an impasse would be to file the DOI, fire Fehr, reorganize and sign a deal. I don't know. I still believe that this will get done and that the idea of there being more than 2 things standing in between a deal and not is without merit.

But that is me.
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one, TG. While I would have loved to see the DOI filed and Fehr fired about a month ago, doing so now will definitely end any chance of a season and the legal issues created by doing so will threaten next season's start as well.

If a DOI and union decert occurs, the next step is players will individually file anti-trust lawsuits against the league (whenever they wish to, by the way) and then the court has to deal with those, one by one. Any "reorganization" into a new union or "player association" would probably take a while.

With no deadlines of their own, a court can take its time sorting out all the legal issues related to this lockout. In addition, with the season being cancelled, the court can look upon, say, October 1 as its own deadline to get things done. Of course, that is a dangerous course because anytime you set a deadline so far into the future, you run the risk of facts, parties, and particulars changing and then you see court continuances, etc.

In any event, a DOI at this point means curtains on the current season.

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01-04-2013, 12:44 AM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one, TG. While I would have loved to see the DOI filed and Fehr fired about a month ago, doing so now will definitely end any chance of a season and the legal issues created by doing so will threaten next season's start as well.

If a DOI and union decert occurs, the next step is players will individually file anti-trust lawsuits against the league (whenever they wish to, by the way) and then the court has to deal with those, one by one. Any "reorganization" into a new union or "player association" would probably take a while.

With no deadlines of their own, a court can take its time sorting out all the legal issues related to this lockout. In addition, with the season being cancelled, the court can look upon, say, October 1 as its own deadline to get things done. Of course, that is a dangerous course because anytime you set a deadline so far into the future, you run the risk of facts, parties, and particulars changing and then you see court continuances, etc.

In any event, a DOI at this point means curtains on the current season.
I am afraid you are right but I want you to be wrong. I still stand by what I have said all along and that is that we will have a season and that 1/11 is when we should at least have a done deal if not players in camp but now I am basing allot of it on hope and advice.

I am at least confident that everyone is at the very least trying to save this season from not happening. They may be complete idiots in how they are going about it but there is just too much to loose if they let it go.

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01-04-2013, 12:54 AM
  #891
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Here is my take on the (known) remaining issues:

Pension Plan. The complexities of any pension deal is what really gives me pause. Any viable long-term pension deal between players and owners (league) really shouldn't be part of any CBA package with limits on its term. A defined-benefit pension plan is something that should act in perpetuity and can't be limited in any way, shape or form. I have no idea at all how they can possibly agree to a pension plan as part of a bargaining agreement that expires. By its very nature, the pension plan should be administered by a "pension-plan administrator" that is independent of both league and player personnel. The whole pension thing baffles me as to why it would even be part of a CBA.

Year 2 Salary Cap. The pension plan issue aside, it seems these other issues should be resolved. I am not the only one calling for a $62.5 million cap limit in the first full year of the CBA (year 2, next year, whatever you want to call it). It seems logical to go to the middle, and right now. However, logic doesn't seem to play well when it comes to the NHL and NHLPA, so this remains a big, big hurdle.

CBA Length. Many in the media are reporting that the total overall length, 10 years, has been agreed upon. However, there seems to be a dust-up about when the term can be opted out: the league wants 8 years, the players want 7, with a "2-minute warning" if you will, in year 6 that they plan to opt out. (One wonders with all the early opt-out possibilities that the so-called agreed upon term of 10 years means anything at all.)

Players' Contract Length. While the NHL and the PA have gotten closer together on this issue, it hasn't been resolved yet. The league still wants 6 as a max-term, the players want 7. There is no more wiggle-room here; you can't meet in the middle and have 6˝ years. Some one is going to have to give in. The league is agreeing to 7 years in order to sign a team's own player, seems that should be the "deal-closer" on this issue, but the PA seems determined to keep it at 7 as a max for all players.

Escrow Cap. Here is a very complex issue that I admit is so hard to understand that I am not sure it can be explained in even algebraic terms. So I found a pretty good analogy* and posted the link below. Bottom line for escrow: the players want to cap it so they don't get left holding the bag; the owners don't want a cap because they can't project their team revenues accurately enough (go figure).

I should also add that in regard to this last issue it has apparently not been brought up in recent days, even though it was a point of contention as late as Monday. There seems to be some confusion as its not part of recent offers, but you can bet, just as in the case of pensions, we have not heard the last of this issue either.

That's it, as far as I know. If there are other issues still out there, please let me know. I have not heard of any other issues that are still in contention at this point in time.

*What Is Escrow, Anyway?

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01-04-2013, 12:58 AM
  #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am afraid you are right but I want you to be wrong.
Me too.

Quote:
I am at least confident that everyone is at the very least trying to save this season from not happening. They may be complete idiots in how they are going about it but there is just too much to loose if they let it go.
They are complete idiots. To give you an example on issue 2 I raised above:

They are willing to forego a pro-rated amount (based on last year's gross income figures) of about $1.7 billion to save $150 million (assuming 30 teams multiplied by $5 million separation on the salary cap).

Complete, utter MORONS.

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01-04-2013, 09:38 AM
  #893
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Bitterness grows during NHL labour waiting game

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We don't need any more days like Thursday. Whether you believe the NHL tried to screw the players or Donald Fehr manufactured a controversy to rally the group, all it did was increase the disgust everyone feels towards both parties.

If you believe Fehr's goal was to make owners realize that continuous lockouts would come with a severe price, he has achieved that. What is one more week going to prove?

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01-04-2013, 10:16 AM
  #894
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Told you Fehr would find another issue, This is his playbook down to a TEE.

The guy is not interested in Saving Hockey, he is a legacy to uphold.

That legacy is causing the most damage possible so Owners capitulate.

The only problem is , this is not 1994, this is not MLB, These are not MLB owners. There is no Multi Billion Dollar T.V. Revenue or Yankee/Redsox revenue to miss out on.

These owners would rather not play, than sign a CBA that losses then money.

Fehr has done a pretty good job at making sure the players don't get hosed, at some point though they need to make a deal.

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01-04-2013, 10:47 AM
  #895
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Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Because of lack of trust both sides say all language will have to be carefully executed before "Game On" declared. Byproduct of yesterday?
If this is true, you can stick a fork in it.

I can't see ANY lawyer on this planet be able to perfect language inside one Gregorian calendar week with some of the complex issues (including pension plans!) that are involved in these CBA negotiations.

By waiting until the last minute, these guys have cut their noses off to spite their faces.

As I said above earlier, lawyers can always perfect language written language at a later time, when there is time to construct contracts carefully and without errors. Inside a week? It simply cannot be done. This issue will have to waived by both sides, otherwise we can forget hockey this season.

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01-04-2013, 10:53 AM
  #896
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If this is true, you can stick a fork in it.

I can't see ANY lawyer on this planet be able to perfect language inside one Gregorian calendar week with some of the complex issues (including pension plans!) that are involved in these CBA negotiations.

By waiting until the last minute, these guys have cut their noses off to spite their faces.

As I said above earlier, lawyers can always perfect language written language at a later time, when there is time to construct contracts carefully and without errors. Inside a week? It simply cannot be done. This issue will have to waived by both sides, otherwise we can forget hockey this season.
Fehr will keep moving the Goal posts; till the players are close to keeping much of what they had.

Problem is the NHL owners won't sign that CBA.

The whole pension plan thing I think is not really an issue, it's a negotiating tactic. They solve one issue, but that issue crops up again at a later date. It's all part of the game.

I am sure before the 11th hour, Make whole will be asked to be increased again.

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01-04-2013, 11:26 AM
  #897
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All I want is for the end of next week to be the end, one way or the other. If the PA wants to drag this out even further beyond that, then I hope the cancellation comes quickly.

If this season gets cancelled, then they can cancel the next 5 years while they're at it. I wanted to see the banner go up. I wanted to watch the Kings defend their Cup. But I'd rather the NHL never have another game played than to hear Donald Fehr's name again after January 11th.

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01-04-2013, 12:01 PM
  #898
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If you owned a multi million dollar business and wanted to negotiate a deal with a major corporation would you bring in a hockey player with no college degree for advice? Why are these guys allowed into a room to go over business when they have no clue what they are talking about? These guys play hockey, most come from a pretty blue collar background and now they are allowed into a boardroom because they have put up a lot of point in their career? These guys are clueless.

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01-04-2013, 12:50 PM
  #899
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If you owned a multi million dollar business and wanted to negotiate a deal with a major corporation would you bring in a hockey player with no college degree for advice? Why are these guys allowed into a room to go over business when they have no clue what they are talking about? These guys play hockey, most come from a pretty blue collar background and now they are allowed into a boardroom because they have put up a lot of point in their career? These guys are clueless.
Most of these guys are essentially pro hockey players from age 16 on. Education is not taken seriously in the CHL (despite what they say), and that is where most of the players come from. Then we are shocked when idiots like Scottie Upshall say the dumb things they do on twitter.

How many college grads are in the NHL?

The Kings for example have Westgarth, Drewiske and Scuds. Greene, Martinez, and Mitchell all have some college also.

Not saying all players without degrees are dumb, Dustin Brown is supposedly the smartest guy on the Kings and is very well spoken, but I agree, guys with at best high school educations can't be expected to grasp this kind of contract language.

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01-04-2013, 12:58 PM
  #900
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Most of these guys are essentially pro hockey players from age 16 on. Education is not taken seriously in the CHL (despite what they say), and that is where most of the players come from. Then we are shocked when idiots like Scottie Upshall say the dumb things they do on twitter.

How many college grads are in the NHL?

The Kings for example have Westgarth, Drewiske and Scuds. Greene, Martinez, and Mitchell all have some college also.

Not saying all players without degrees are dumb, Dustin Brown is supposedly the smartest guy on the Kings and is very well spoken, but I agree, guys with at best high school educations can't be expected to grasp this kind of contract language.
I question if even guys like Westgarth understand. I am an Accountant by trade.

While I sympathize with the players always having to give up some salary, I understand why the NHL is always asking for it.

You have to keep your books in order, and your fiscal base sound. Unfortunately in about 99% of all Companies; that starts and ends with Labor costs.

Can you get creative with overhead ? Yes , but the vast majority of your expenses is always Labor.

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