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01-03-2013, 01:55 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
You couldn't be more wrong, except by saying that Kulemin throws monster hits.

Kulemin is bigger and more physical. Raymond is speedier. Both are equal offensively, and defensively. I don't get how Raymond is one dimensional when he's one of our top defensive forwards and a staple on the PK. The two players are more alike that you seem willing to admit, and if they are involved in a Luongo trade their involvement should cancel eachother out,
There's a reason why Raymond was given a paycut this year when he failed to produce offensively. He's also not a staple on the PK. He averaged less than a minute per game last year. Raymond was 14th on your team in SH TOI/game. Considering that the Sedin's are not eligible to play SH under Vignault's system, that does not speak highly of Raymond being a "staple" on the PK.

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01-03-2013, 01:59 PM
  #877
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There's a reason why Raymond was given a paycut this year when he failed to produce offensively. He's also not a staple on the PK. He averaged less than a minute per game last year. Raymond was 14th on your team in SH TOI/game. Considering that the Sedin's are not eligible to play SH under Vignault's system, that does not speak highly of Raymond being a "staple" on the PK.
Raymond was eased back into the lineup this past year and wasn't picking up much heavy minutes because he's coming back from a broken back. Funny how you mention his performance regression while ignoring Kulemin's regression. Raymond, in fewer games and coming off a career threatening injury, still out produced Kulemin.

I stand by my statement: I would consider Kulemin and Raymond as equals in a trade, making up a secondary component of a Luongo trade.

Something like Lupul/Gardiner, Kulemin, Biggs, 1 for Luongo, Raymond, Sauve works for me,

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01-03-2013, 02:00 PM
  #878
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So Florida pays a premium to trade Upshall - for example - so Vancouver can buy him out and then Florida resigns him - unlikely due to other teams getting priority - to save 1-2M a year?

Vancouver would only pay the difference on the contract.

Makes more sense for Florida just to buyout their own guy and take a soft deal for Lu.
We do not know how the amnesty clause will work though. It could just be a regular buy out and the player becomes a free agent. Just because the nba had theirs set up like what u described doesn't mean the nhl will. Back in 2005 the nba had an amnesty rule completely different to the one they had now

Also again hardly a premium a young 4th line center or young #6 dman who haven't progressed as well as hoped a blue chip prospect and a late 1st is not a premium

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01-03-2013, 02:00 PM
  #879
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In my opinion...no. Burke doesn't have a cap dump to offer that would increase the value of other pieces. We need Komi, and Connolly/Lombardi are done in 6 months.


You are thinking of it in parallels. This is simply about value. TO doesn't have to do what FLA is wanting to do... If FLA's major stumbling block was salary, as Coolburn had stated, the amnesty buyouts are a way around the obstacle. VAN doesn't have to take on cap salary, so they're on board too. Before they weren't.



So if this bridges the gap between the teams, and FLA is able to make a competitive offer now where as before they could not, does that change the offer from TO? Meaning, will we hear about another increase in the offer from TO, as they did from EDM, when we learn FLA is back to the table? This just got more interesting.

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01-03-2013, 02:05 PM
  #880
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So if this bridges the gap between the teams, and FLA is able to make a competitive offer now where as before they could not, does that change the offer from TO? Meaning, will we hear about another increase in the offer from TO, as they did from EDM, when we learn FLA is back to the table? This just got more interesting.
Not at all. The price Toronto is willing to pay will stay the same, IMO. I can't see Brian Burke offering more, especially in a tighter cap-world.

If so, Roberto will be Florida bound but Vancouver will more than likely not get an attractive package in return.

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01-03-2013, 02:06 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You are thinking of it in parallels. This is simply about value. TO doesn't have to do what FLA is wanting to do... If FLA's major stumbling block was salary, as Coolburn had stated, the amnesty buyouts are a way around the obstacle. VAN doesn't have to take on cap salary, so they're on board too. Before they weren't.



So if this bridges the gap between the teams, and FLA is able to make a competitive offer now where as before they could not, does that change the offer from TO? Meaning, will we hear about another increase in the offer from TO, as they did from EDM, when we learn FLA is back to the table? This just got more interesting.
It's only more interesting because you think Burke will keep upping the offer. He has a limit, he may be there or he may go a little higher, but he won't exceed his limit.

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01-03-2013, 02:08 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You are thinking of it in parallels. This is simply about value. TO doesn't have to do what FLA is wanting to do... If FLA's major stumbling block was salary, as Coolburn had stated, the amnesty buyouts are a way around the obstacle. VAN doesn't have to take on cap salary, so they're on board too. Before they weren't.



So if this bridges the gap between the teams, and FLA is able to make a competitive offer now where as before they could not, does that change the offer from TO? Meaning, will we hear about another increase in the offer from TO, as they did from EDM, when we learn FLA is back to the table? This just got more interesting.
Personally, I do not see Florida involved unless they can get Luongo cheap. Maybe we get Petrovic or Howden out of them but some might consider that a stretch. They seem poised to run with Markstrom. Say it's Howden and Upshall. That isn't any better than Kadri and Bozak.

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01-03-2013, 02:09 PM
  #883
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As a completely neutral observer who isn't a Van or Tor fan, I can't see how the Leafs relinquish any assets for Luongo?

If the cap is headed where they say, I don't see how Luongo is anything but an amnesty buyout for Vancouver. Looking at their roster and cap situation, it makes zero sense for them to not use it on him.

I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying it's an economic/asset management reality. If Gillis wants more than about a 3rd round pick, if I'm TO, I wait on the buyout. Call their bluff.

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01-03-2013, 02:10 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because Vancouver would never ever buy out Luongo?
Yeah, cause 10 mil in goal makes sense when your cap is 60 Mil . Best to keep the guy who wants to be traded. Not sure if you are trying to convince us or yourself, either way sounding desperate.

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01-03-2013, 02:14 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Raymond was eased back into the lineup this past year and wasn't picking up much heavy minutes because he's coming back from a broken back. Funny how you mention his performance regression while ignoring Kulemin's regression. Raymond, in fewer games and coming off a career threatening injury, still out produced Kulemin.

I stand by my statement: I would consider Kulemin and Raymond as equals in a trade, making up a secondary component of a Luongo trade.

Something like Lupul/Gardiner, Kulemin, Biggs, 1 for Luongo, Raymond, Sauve works for me,
Yeah no. If you're right and Kulemin and Raymond are equals, I see absolutely zero reason to trade them for each other.

And as for that proposal....that is awful for Toronto. Just awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
You are thinking of it in parallels. This is simply about value. TO doesn't have to do what FLA is wanting to do... If FLA's major stumbling block was salary, as Coolburn had stated, the amnesty buyouts are a way around the obstacle. VAN doesn't have to take on cap salary, so they're on board too. Before they weren't.



So if this bridges the gap between the teams, and FLA is able to make a competitive offer now where as before they could not, does that change the offer from TO? Meaning, will we hear about another increase in the offer from TO, as they did from EDM, when we learn FLA is back to the table? This just got more interesting.
Just curious but where did you get that Toronto upped its offer because of Edmonton? Rumour? I see you stating it like its fact several times and I'm not even sure where it came from.

I honestly don't even know why teams would be in serious trade discussions without a CBA in place.

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Old
01-03-2013, 02:24 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Yeah, cause 10 mil in goal makes sense when your cap is 60 Mil . Best to keep the guy who wants to be traded. Not sure if you are trying to convince us or yourself, either way sounding desperate.
It does when your goalies are the reasons for your teams success. Luongo is a top 5 goalie, you don't buy out players like that. We can make room elsewhere on our roster if need be. Not ideal, but giving up a top 5 goalie for nothing is not a good move. Not to mention I don't see our owner excited to sign a $30M cheque for the buy-out. From a cash standpoint it makes zero sense whatsoever, and that's ignoring the fact that buying out elite players isn't something that will happen.

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01-03-2013, 02:31 PM
  #887
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we need komi? sense when? i've seen him do nothing but suck since day one
Since as of now we have:

Phaneuf/Gunnar
Liles/Gardiner
Komi/???

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01-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #888
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In fairness the conversation is exclusively under the scenario of a $60M cap right now. As such, Luongo's value does decline, sharply. There is no argument around that. And no, we cannot keep him. That no longer would be an option.
If the cap drops that low and we can't get good value for Lou I think it would be time to start entertaining offers for Schneider then. We have lack in the wings so its not like we don't have a future goalie for after luongo and asset wise he will return more to improve the team at that point no?

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Old
01-03-2013, 02:41 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Tim Wallach View Post
As a completely neutral observer who isn't a Van or Tor fan, I can't see how the Leafs relinquish any assets for Luongo?

If the cap is headed where they say, I don't see how Luongo is anything but an amnesty buyout for Vancouver. Looking at their roster and cap situation, it makes zero sense for them to not use it on him.

I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying it's an economic/asset management reality. If Gillis wants more than about a 3rd round pick, if I'm TO, I wait on the buyout. Call their bluff.
That's what everyone was saying teams would do to Chicago when they had to get rid of all their depth and yet they managed to get great value back even though they were the only team to ever be in cap hell and having to either let key players walk or deal off depth players

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01-03-2013, 02:44 PM
  #890
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Was Tim Thomas' value low when he got benched in favor of rask? And he was much older then than luongo is now.

Also if his value is low doesn't that mean he's not good? Why else would his value be low? And if he's not that good why would u want to pay a small amount of assets for the contract he has let alone take it for free?
Thomas wasn't traded.

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01-03-2013, 02:45 PM
  #891
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If the cap drops that low and we can't get good value for Lou I think it would be time to start entertaining offers for Schneider then. We have lack in the wings so its not like we don't have a future goalie for after luongo and asset wise he will return more to improve the team at that point no?
Agreed, although even Schneider's value will decreased. Teams would be well aware of our cap situation and are not liable to offer prior demands. Schneider has better leeway considering we could dump Luongo in some other manner. So, yes, trading Schneider would be the best option. Anyone anticipating JVR+Gardiner though is dreaming though.

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01-03-2013, 02:52 PM
  #892
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Thomas wasn't traded.
Did I ask if he was traded? No i asked about his value. If I wasn't on my phone is post the genius meme lol.

Also even if his value was low which I don't buy, looks like holding onto him instead of trading him for scraps was a great decision no?

their gm was smart and knew he wasn't a benched backup as most people have been calling luongo in this thread and guess what? He was right!

Pretty sure boston didnt even make him available. i guess they were idiots since they had no intentions of moving a 35+ year old washed up backup at a 5M cap hit with a 50-56M cap without getting the value of a top goalie.

So why exactly can't luongo do the same thing thomas did? If he does will his hf value not skyrocket?


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01-03-2013, 02:56 PM
  #893
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Because their gm was smart and knew he wasn't a benched backup as most people have been calling luongo in this thread and guess what? He was right! So why exactly can't luongo do the same thing? If he does will his hf value not skyrocket?
Yes, Thomas' and Luongo's situation is the same.

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01-03-2013, 03:04 PM
  #894
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Yes, Thomas' and Luongo's situation is the same.
Team has young goalie, young goalie pushes his way into the starters job. Team shops veteran starting goalie. Team receives crap offers for veteran starting goalie.

What team am I talking about?

A) Vancouver 2012
B) Boston 2010
C) All of the above

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01-03-2013, 03:12 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Team has young goalie, young goalie pushes his way into the starters job. Team shops veteran starting goalie. Team receives crap offers for veteran starting goalie.

What team am I talking about?

A) Vancouver 2012
B) Boston 2010
C) All of the above
Don't forget one goalie posted well below career average numbers when losing the starters role while the other posted career average numbers.

For those of u who don't know the former being Thomas and latter being luongo

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01-03-2013, 03:14 PM
  #896
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Since as of now we have:

Phaneuf/Gunnar
Liles/Gardiner
Komi/???
ranger can fill a spot thats just an idea

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01-03-2013, 03:17 PM
  #897
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ranger can fill a spot thats just an idea
And a goid idea. But if you buy out Komi, who fills the other spot? And who is your 7th.

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01-03-2013, 03:24 PM
  #898
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Actually no he's not. Over the past 3 years offensively they are comparable (Raymond slightly better in points per game). Defensively Raymond has also been slightly better.
Offensively, yes they are compareable, defensively Kulemin actually is much better.

Kulemin has a higher:
CorsiON QoC
Corsi QoC
Corsi Rel
Defensive zone starts
And a lower Ga/60 ( in relation to team ranking, Raymond 7th highest Kulemin 17th)

All stats that suggest hes better defensively

He also has the best offensive season between the two, more physical and much bigger frame, and the skating difference is negligible considering the difference is a fraction of a second.

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01-03-2013, 03:27 PM
  #899
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Raymond was eased back into the lineup this past year and wasn't picking up much heavy minutes because he's coming back from a broken back. Funny how you mention his performance regression while ignoring Kulemin's regression. Raymond, in fewer games and coming off a career threatening injury, still out produced Kulemin.

I stand by my statement: I would consider Kulemin and Raymond as equals in a trade, making up a secondary component of a Luongo trade.

Something like Lupul/Gardiner, Kulemin, Biggs, 1 for Luongo, Raymond, Sauve works for me,
I am not a fan of either team so in saying that I think it is crazy Canucks fans think they are getting anything close to a package that involves a good young player like Gardiner for Loungo. The lower the cap goes the less return they will get. Maybe a mid round pick and a B prospect

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01-03-2013, 03:32 PM
  #900
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Bozak and Kadri is probably accurate, unless Vancouver wants Franson instead, and then take him and swap out one of the other two. I doubt the deal ends up being materially different.

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