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LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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01-03-2013, 09:36 AM
  #651
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I am sure the amount of transplants play a factor as many big American companies call Atlanta home. I am not really sure though but it's always been that way even going back to the early 90's when the Braves dominated baseball. Poor fan support has just always been a factor in Atlanta.

Another factor maybe be SEC football and NASCAR. As Georgia is right in the heart of SEC and NACAR country and sports fans in the area LOVE NASCAR and college football.
Absolutely. And high school football is an enormous draw there too.

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01-03-2013, 09:41 AM
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I was looking for the thread bout the NHL's new offer to the NHLPA. Does anyone know where that went?

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01-03-2013, 09:43 AM
  #653
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I think it's a combination of a lack of any real history (if I recall correctly, there were no Atlanta franchises until the Braves moved there from Milwaukee), a lack of any particularly interesting rivalries, and a complete absence of sports tradition.

If you can't build a rivalry with a nearby market, it's hard to start buidling a tradition that's interesting enough to draw eyes and ears. The Canes and Lightning needed to bite the bullet and start building some serious hate with Atlanta. It would have been better for both clubs.

The fact that one of the more successful neighboring teams is in an entirely different conference (Nashville) didn't help here.
This is a good point. Local rivalries are important. But there is no way to build these if teams are deemed failures after only a few years and moved. The solution is to put multiple teams into relatively nearby markets.....Tampa and Florida Panthers for example. Although it will take years to build the rivalry, we need patience to let that rivalry grow.

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01-03-2013, 09:44 AM
  #654
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I was looking for the thread bout the NHL's new offer to the NHLPA. Does anyone know where that went?
The two sides are "still far apart". They are meeting again now.

The news is coming at a snail's pace.

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01-03-2013, 09:59 AM
  #655
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No, you can have it both ways. High revenues + high costs = high revenues but poor profits
I understand that it is possible; but the game is either healthy because of its high revenues or in bad shape because of its high costs - can't have both opinions.

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01-03-2013, 10:01 AM
  #656
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I was looking for the thread bout the NHL's new offer to the NHLPA. Does anyone know where that went?
Both sides have come too far at this point (and are too entrenched).

If it smells like 2005, and looks like 2005, then....

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01-03-2013, 10:05 AM
  #657
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This is a good point. Local rivalries are important. But there is no way to build these if teams are deemed failures after only a few years and moved. The solution is to put multiple teams into relatively nearby markets.....Tampa and Florida Panthers for example. Although it will take years to build the rivalry, we need patience to let that rivalry grow.
would the proposed changes to the conference/playoff structure that included divisional playoffs contribute positively or negatively in this regard?

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01-03-2013, 10:12 AM
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I understand that it is possible; but the game is either healthy because of its high revenues or in bad shape because of its high costs - can't have both opinions.
Yes you can, especially if a rising tide isn't floating all boats.

No one's doubting that MLSE and a handful of other ownership groups are thriving. But if the math that is the result of that success is making life harder for struggling franchises that's still a problem that needs to be fixed if you don't want the entire lower middle of the league to collapse.

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01-03-2013, 10:20 AM
  #659
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Yes you can, especially if a rising tide isn't floating all boats.

No one's doubting that MLSE and a handful of other ownership groups are thriving. But if the math that is the result of that success is making life harder for struggling franchises that's still a problem that needs to be fixed if you don't want the entire lower middle of the league to collapse.
But I thought the game was healthy because of rising revenues in smaller market cities?

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01-03-2013, 10:20 AM
  #660
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would the proposed changes to the conference/playoff structure that included divisional playoffs contribute positively or negatively in this regard?
It depends who you ask. LOL.

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01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
  #661
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So what is it about people in Atlanta that make them poor fans of sports? Is it something in the water? The air? Explain.
As your probably aware, the NHL initially awarded Atlanta a franchise in 72 as they had a then new facility, needed another team to balance conference play when awarding Long Island a team (done to block the WHA from the populous & wealthy New York market). Despite Georgia basically being a "throw-in", the market did in fact respond very favourably indeed. Had it not been for ownerships financial meltdown (real estate primarily) that team wouldnt have been relo'd to Calgary at all, and I would argue shouldnt have been permitted to do so at all had anyone at the league at that time been thinking clearly. Instead, Nelson Skalbania doubles up on an offer made by a local group led by actor Glenn Ford, league wide franchises given a bump as a result, bye bye Atlanta.

Fast forward, who in their right mind rejects the advances of a powerhouse like Ted Turner, wanting a seat at the table, a market to absolutely drool over in terms of size & population, strategic positioning, media & corporate heft? Not I, and certainly not anyone seriously interested in "growing the game" and revenues throughout the South, Southeast & indeed all over the United States. Most unfortunate that Turners' lot changed, the franchise ultimately winding up in ASG's hands before it even really had a chance to sink roots. As explained by many here & elsewhere, the Thrashers were an unwelcome tenant, ASG never, right from the get go wanting the team, bought only because they were required to do so as part of the Hawks & arena purchase. Deliberately left in the hands of a complete and utter incompetent in one Don Waddell, run into the ditch early while ASG conducted its internecine wars, lied through there teeth to the NHL, the city of Atlanta, the Thrashers sponsors, the fans & public at large.

Now, lets say your the Deputy Commissioner or the Commissioner of the NHL, entrusted to oversee the development of the NHL brand in the newer markets, but dont even bother to create say a "Co-op Marketing, Advertising, Promotional & Developmental Program"? Instead just leave it all up to the manipulations of individuals you suspect are little more than Grifters & Carpetbaggers who through demonstrative examples, repeatedly, obviously have no interest in the game. Actually contributing to their own success. Do next to nothing. Play everyone against one another including yourself. Do nothing but complain, demand All Star Games, Drafts, special attention of the financial kind, including rigging the game so their on the receiving end of Revenue Sharing proceeds & so on & so forth.

Your aware of this early. Do you do nothing, as the current administration did, and just sit back & watch it unravel over a decade? Ultimately losing all control, put into a position of Checkmate? Losing one of the top markets in the States, one of the most important media & corporate centres on the planet, the gateway to & capital of the South. One of the 3 prongs in an anchor that includes Carolina & Nashville. Finessed. Totally embarrassed. Outplayed and out hustled by a crew of shallow Hucksters. Then claim "the market has spoken, people in Atlanta just dont respond to hockey". Beyond implausible denial, completely & utterly abrogating their responsibilities, covenants with the city, fans, broadcasters & sponsors. Taking the shine off of two other franchises in the process through the removal of a natural rival. Just on & on.... complete incompetence. Complete failure of Leadership. Sorry to rant.


Last edited by Killion: 01-03-2013 at 10:29 AM.
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01-03-2013, 10:25 AM
  #662
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But I thought the game was healthy because of rising revenues in smaller market cities?
The game is healthy. The CBA rules are creating an artificial environment that's putting a bit of strain on things, however. Easing that strain is important even when revenues are high, especially when high revenues from the big markets raise the growth standards impossibly high for the small markets.

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01-03-2013, 10:26 AM
  #663
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Bettman put teams in:

Dallas....good success despite the last couple of years. That area has a nice hockey program now and is building a tradition. A little success again on the ice and ownership not handcuffed by cash flow issues and they will be a success again.

Columbus...some would argue this is a traditional market. Itis failing solely because the horrible horrible management the team and fans have had to endure.

Minnesota...success

Nashville...up in the air yet. Certainly not a failure

Atlanta...that was a failure, no question. But then again he's responsible for the Jets now. Win one lose one.

Phoenix..looks like a failure but I think there is equal fault of poor decisions in this franchise.

Carolina...seems to be doing fine and growing a tradition in the area.

Colorado...would say that has been a pretty successful franchise

Anaheim, Florida, Tampa were done before Bettman was commissioner. And of course expanding to non-traditional markets was what he was asked to do so he did it and he put them in the largest markets. Hard to fault him for that as it is what anybody would have done given that directive.
A quick look at that list...several Cup wins, several appearances. Some have thrived and done so in relatively short order. What this list really brings to light is just how awesome some ownership and management groups have been...and how utterly miserable others have been.

It's not where the teams were put that was the issue. It's whom the teams were given to, and whom they subsequently hired to run the teams. Markets fail when ownership and management fail. This is a fact. You put a winning team in any market, and eventually you're going to draw a rabid fan base. That's just how it works. No one falls in love with a losing team. No sport becomes ingrained in a region if it never ever sees a winner.

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01-03-2013, 10:29 AM
  #664
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As your probably aware, the NHL initially awarded Atlanta a franchise in 72 as they had a then new facility, needed another team to balance conference play when awarding Long Island a team (done to block the WHA from the populous & wealthy New York market). Despite Georgia basically being a "throw-in", the market did in fact respond very favourably indeed. Had it not been for ownerships financial meltdown (real estate primarily) that team wouldnt have been relo'd to Calgary at all, and I would argue shouldnt have been permitted to do so at all had anyone at the league at that time been thinking clearly. Instead, Nelson Skalbania doubles up on an offer made by a local group led by actor Glenn Ford, league wide franchises given a bump as a result, bye bye Atlanta.

Fast forward, who in their right mind rejects the advances of a powerhouse like Ted Turner, wanting a seat at the table, a market to absolutely drool over in terms of size & population, strategic positioning, media & corporate heft? Not I, and certainly not anyone seriously interested in "growing the game" and revenues throughout the South, Southeast & indeed all over the United States. Most unfortunate that Turners' lot changed, the franchise ultimately winding up in ASG's hands before it even really had a chance to sink roots. As explained by many here & elsewhere, the Thrashers were an unwelcome tenant, ASG never, right from the get go wanting the team, bought only because they were required to do so as part of the Hawks & arena purchase. Deliberately left in the hands of a complete and utter incompetent in one Don Waddell, run into the ditch early while ASG conducted its internecine wars, lied through there teeth to the NHL, the city of Atlanta, the Thrashers sponsors, the fans & public at large.

Now, lets say your the Deputy Commissioner or the Commissioner of the NHL, entrusted to oversee the development of the NHL brand in the newer markets, but dont even bother to create say a "Co-op Marketing, Advertising, Promotional & Developmental Program"? Instead just leave it all up to the manipulations of individuals you suspect are little more than Grifters & Carpetbaggers who through demonstrative examples, repeatedly, obviously have no interest in the game. Actually contributing to their own success. Do next to nothing. Play everyone against one another including yourself. Do nothing but complain, demand All Star Games, Drafts, special attention of the financial kind, including rigging the game so their on the receiving end of Revenue Sharing proceeds & so on & so forth.

Your aware of this early. Do you do nothing, as the current administration did, and just sit back & watch it unravel over a decade? Ultimately losing all control, put into a position of Checkmate? Losing one of the top markets in the States, one of the most important media & corporate centres on the planet, the gateway to & capital of the South. One of the 3 prongs in an anchor that includes Carolina & Nashville. Finessed. Totally embarrassed. Outplayed and out hustled by a crew of shallow Hucksters. Then claim "the market has spoken, people in Atlanta just dont respond to hockey". Beyond implausible denial, completely & utterly abrogating their responsibilities, covenants with the city, fans, broadcasters & sponsors. Taking the shine off of two other franchises in the process through the removal of a natural rival. Just on & on.... complete incompetence. Sorry to rant.
Agreed 100%. There is no reason the league should be leaving these ownership groups to twist in the wind and force each one individually to reinvent the wheel the way it is doing. It's utter BS that the league has decided to try to run itself this way.

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01-03-2013, 10:30 AM
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But I thought the game was healthy because of rising revenues in smaller market cities?
Who said the game is healthy? The rising revenues are a result of rising TV numbers and the new TV deal. And I would argue that neither are possible without expansion (spreading 30 teams throughout North America) and a salary cap (making sure that all 30 teams at the very least have a chance for continued success regardless of market size).

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01-03-2013, 10:35 AM
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A quick look at that list...several Cup wins, several appearances. Some have thrived and done so in relatively short order. What this list really brings to light is just how awesome some ownership and management groups have been...and how utterly miserable others have been.

It's not where the teams were put that was the issue. It's whom the teams were given to, and whom they subsequently hired to run the teams. Markets fail when ownership and management fail. This is a fact. You put a winning team in any market, and eventually you're going to draw a rabid fan base. That's just how it works. No one falls in love with a losing team. No sport becomes ingrained in a region if it never ever sees a winner.
And as Columbus demonstrates you can put a franchise in the heart of the so-called traditional market area, and if it's poorly run it'll still fail to draw. Heck, the Bruins and Hawks demonstrated within the last decade that the original 6 are hardly immune despite all the tradition and history.

Nor should they be. The sports life cycle is ultimately a necessary and healthy thing. Look how broken the Leafs have been for years because their ownership can print money no matter how badly their team is doing. If you make money on mediocricy, mediocricy is what you get.

The real problem with expansion into an entire region like the Sunbelt is that you let Murphy in to a degree that's all but impossible to manage. Some ownership groups aren't going to be as advertised an some are going to have to get out of the biz. What you're hoping for is that enough teams put down solid roots in the region that you can rebuild whatever you actually lose. Runaway instantanous success in the South was never in the cards [mod].


Last edited by Fugu: 01-03-2013 at 12:58 PM. Reason: generalized flame
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01-03-2013, 11:04 AM
  #667
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And as Columbus demonstrates you can put a franchise in the heart of the so-called traditional market area, and if it's poorly run it'll still fail to draw.
Sure enough, or in the case of Winnipeg 01, bought by the Frick & Frack's of Burke & Gluckstern who were turfed out of Minnesota after having their ransom demands denied; wind up in Colangelo's then new & totally hockey unfriendly Palace in Phoenix as a paying tenant with a one sided lease virtually guaranteeing insolvency.

So along comes dreamer Steve Ellman, Scottsdale's voters approving his development plans for an arena & commercial/retail/residential build, their elected turning it down, so its on to Glendale. The team itself little more than the emotional quotient, the "hook" in a real estate play. Gretzky & Friends employed to basically hang out, rounds of golf at Talking Stick, fly in fly out from LA, beyond obscene expenditures, and again, the game itself suffering as a result. Losers, headed straight for insolvency before they even get started, the last Lockout happening just months after Glendale arena had opened its doors. Even that momentum lost.

Hockey, the NHL brand can work in Phoenix, however, the league, past ownership & management have so completely messed it up that it may indeed well be irretrievable. And unfortunately, I dont believe Greg Jamisons' the Messiah the market needs to effect a Resurrection on the scale required. Indeed, quite the opposite, his "terms" more likely than not the final push the municipality doesnt need in finding itself falling through space and into bankruptcy.

So yes, be it Ohio, Arizona, Ontario or Alberta, wherever, the NHL can indeed succeed, provided youve got yourselves astute & savvy ownership & management in place, a team thats competitive & makes an effort, a "workable" lease & building. Failure is not exclusive to location, climate, history or whatever else. Failure is just... well, failure.

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01-03-2013, 11:16 AM
  #668
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And you're not going to sell a product unless it's there and available to potential fans. The Thrashers were in Atlanta and available to fans there. The NHL marketed the living daylights out of them there. The NHL put the All-Star Game festivities there. Nothing worked. That market rejected hockey. Why? They just didn't "get it". They get high school and college football, but not hockey.
The Thrashers were doomed the moment ASG purchased the team in 2005.

Atlanta sports fans rejected the NHL because the Thrashers were so poorly managed and consistently put out an inferior product, in a city notorious for it's bandwagon fan bases.

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01-03-2013, 12:47 PM
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Sure enough, or in the case of Winnipeg 01, bought by the Frick & Frack's of Burke & Gluckstern who were turfed out of Minnesota after having their ransom demands denied; wind up in Colangelo's then new & totally hockey unfriendly Palace in Phoenix as a paying tenant with a one sided lease virtually guaranteeing insolvency.

So along comes dreamer Steve Ellman, Scottsdale's voters approving his development plans for an arena & commercial/retail/residential build, their elected turning it down, so its on to Glendale. The team itself little more than the emotional quotient, the "hook" in a real estate play. Gretzky & Friends employed to basically hang out, rounds of golf at Talking Stick, fly in fly out from LA, beyond obscene expenditures, and again, the game itself suffering as a result. Losers, headed straight for insolvency before they even get started, the last Lockout happening just months after Glendale arena had opened its doors. Even that momentum lost.

Hockey, the NHL brand can work in Phoenix, however, the league, past ownership & management have so completely messed it up that it may indeed well be irretrievable. And unfortunately, I dont believe Greg Jamisons' the Messiah the market needs to effect a Resurrection on the scale required. Indeed, quite the opposite, his "terms" more likely than not the final push the municipality doesnt need in finding itself falling through space and into bankruptcy.

So yes, be it Ohio, Arizona, Ontario or Alberta, wherever, the NHL can indeed succeed, provided youve got yourselves astute & savvy ownership & management in place, a team thats competitive & makes an effort, a "workable" lease & building. Failure is not exclusive to location, climate, history or whatever else. Failure is just... well, failure.

Clarify something for me please: are you blaming ownership for the failure in Phoenix?

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01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
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Clarify something for me please: are you blaming ownership for the failure in Phoenix?
Absolutely. Gluckstern was the only one of the lot that gave a bit of a toff; Burke quickly retreated back to NY State & Long Island where he owned the Islanders for about 15 minutes. Fulfilling his "lifelong ambition to own a pro sports team in New York" (by way of Manitoba, through Minnesota & Arizona?). Pretty obvious what Ellman was all about, and Moyes, well, what can you say about the irascible Jerry? If it wasnt for bad luck head case owners, the fans in Arizona wouldnt have had any luck at all. Talk about killing a market. Absolutely inhumane. Ludicrous.

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01-03-2013, 01:18 PM
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Absolutely. Gluckstern was the only one of the lot that gave a bit of a toff; Burke quickly retreated back to NY State & Long Island where he owned the Islanders for about 15 minutes. Fulfilling his "lifelong ambition to own a pro sports team in New York" (by way of Manitoba, through Minnesota & Arizona?). Pretty obvious what Ellman was all about, and Moyes, well, what can you say about the irascible Jerry? If it wasnt for bad luck head case owners, the fans in Arizona wouldnt have had any luck at all. Talk about killing a market. Absolutely inhumane. Ludicrous.
This all just seems like conjecture - they were below capacity their first year in Phoenix, when I doubt very strongly that the ownership could have been so bad to have any effect.

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01-03-2013, 02:55 PM
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It's one thing to say that the salary cap and expansion has ruined the NHL and watered down the talent level in the NHL. It's quite another to provide factual evidence to support that argument. Especially when the fact remains that expansion and the salary capped system have lead to record revenues, TV ratings, and a national TV deal.

It's funny because I deal with the same crap in the NFL with fans of the Cowboys, Giants and 49ers. Venting about the good old days when their teams where dominant and thinking that the salary cap has ruined it.
The NFL has broad support league wide although I would argue that the cap there has lessened quality as well. The NHL doesn't have league wide support so they are tearing down the strong franchises in order to support the franchises that are failing. If I allocate my entertainment dollars based on how much money I want owners to make then I am going to be pro cap. If I want the best high caliber hockey the I am anti cap.

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01-03-2013, 02:58 PM
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This all just seems like conjecture - they were below capacity their first year in Phoenix, when I doubt very strongly that the ownership could have been so bad to have any effect.
If the owners don't bear the responsibility for putting butts in seats then who does?

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01-03-2013, 03:07 PM
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This is a good point. Local rivalries are important. But there is no way to build these if teams are deemed failures after only a few years and moved. The solution is to put multiple teams into relatively nearby markets.....Tampa and Florida Panthers for example. Although it will take years to build the rivalry, we need patience to let that rivalry grow.
Ohhh!!! The rivalry of the half cap teams! This should be great!

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01-03-2013, 03:13 PM
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This all just seems like conjecture - they were below capacity their first year in Phoenix, when I doubt very strongly that the ownership could have been so bad to have any effect.
Indeed, precisely what it is, "conjecture" based on the facts that I/we have available. If something else is relevant and as of yet unpublished or unknown, do share. I base my opinion's on fact's.... which includes btw that while playing out of the downtown AWA, attendance was not entirely anemic, actually fairly healthy, and particularly so during their first 7seasons, playing above .500 and making the playoff's every year but one. However, the Lease with Colangelo was dreadful, the actual in-game experience lousy as a lot of seating was obstructed as configuration for hockey from a basketball specific venue usually is and when Ellman & Gretzky acquired the team in 2001, the bottom pretty much fell out of the boat in terms of the on-ice "product" thereafter. Never mind the nonsense being perpetrated off-ice in Glendale, the move to the job, followed by the Lockout, market & sub prime mortgage meltdown that hit Arizona & Phoenix particularly harshly....

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