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Old
01-03-2013, 12:15 PM
  #51
GarbageGoal
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While I agree that Miz's reign sucked, I'm not sure you can call it among the worst when he beat the face of the company in the main event at Wrestlemania.
So, because he was put over in a worked match, that makes him passable?

And to be honest, I remember very little about that match other than it royally sucked and had me sitting there saying "Never again am I paying 50 dollars for this crap". Wasn't it a countout?

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01-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #52
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While I agree that Miz's reign sucked, I'm not sure you can call it among the worst when he beat the face of the company in the main event at Wrestlemania.
If anything that is more of a testament to how bad it was. Miz beat Cena at WrestleMania with the title on the line and still was not able to get over as a top guy.
A lot of that has to do with the way he was booked. If he had been able to beat Cena without Rocks help then maybe he could have taken that step but as Hawkeye said because he could never win clean (which is a problem they have with most heel champs) he was never able to take that step and why his reign was terrible.

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01-03-2013, 01:46 PM
  #53
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Maybe Ryback will be the answer to this question next week?

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01-03-2013, 02:21 PM
  #54
duckchobbins
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So, because he was put over in a worked match, that makes him passable?

And to be honest, I remember very little about that match other than it royally sucked and had me sitting there saying "Never again am I paying 50 dollars for this crap". Wasn't it a countout?
It was originally a countout, then the Rock came storming down the ramp and with the cameras right on his face he clearly shouts "eff this s***"...grabs a microphone, restarts the match, rock bottoms Cena and Miz picks up a pinfall victory.

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01-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #55
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The Miz vs. John Cena was the worst WrestleMania main event in recent memory. WrestleMania 27 as a whole was a let down and was just a build for WrestleMania 28, which isn't good.

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01-03-2013, 03:39 PM
  #56
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Never was a fan of Brock Lesnar's reign. I don't like his wrestling ability. Shooting star press at this size is impressive though.


Last edited by Eisen: 01-03-2013 at 03:44 PM.
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01-03-2013, 03:52 PM
  #57
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Never was a fan of Brock Lesnar's reign. I don't like his wrestling ability. Shooting star press at this size is impressive though.
I don't understand how anyone who doesn't like Brocks "wrestling ability" could tolerate watching WWE lol?

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01-03-2013, 05:33 PM
  #58
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This is true, but the focus of the entire build was Rock/Cena with Miz in a supporting role. It's almost like that match was just a set up for the Rock/Cena match at WM28.
Eerily remarkable to Y2Js first reign, with the entire build-up being about HHH and Stephanie, and Y2J being an afterthought.

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01-09-2013, 12:25 AM
  #59
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I have to go with Nash and Hart. Neither drew a dime and one couldnt work to save his life.Hart could work but just didnt have "it" and proved Vince was right the second Hart left for WCW.


As for Backlund, the guy held the title for 5 years and put butts in seats. He also put Nash over so well during his 8 second match, crawling to the back like he was crippled after the power bomb, that he, in Nash's own words, made him.

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01-09-2013, 02:15 AM
  #60
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I have to go with Nash and Hart. Neither drew a dime and one couldnt work to save his life.Hart could work but just didnt have "it" and proved Vince was right the second Hart left for WCW.


As for Backlund, the guy held the title for 5 years and put butts in seats. He also put Nash over so well during his 8 second match, crawling to the back like he was crippled after the power bomb, that he, in Nash's own words, made him.
bret hart is not in this discussion he consistently had great matches

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01-09-2013, 07:56 AM
  #61
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Bret Hart was IMO one of the greatest of all time. I may be biased as I'm one of the biggest Hit man fans there are, but even his detractors have to admit he's a HOF'er. His in-ring work was impeccable and has to be considered one of the top 5 technical wrestlers of all time. The struggles he went through to get to the peak of his career are no doubt impressive.

WCW offered Bret more money although he wanted to stay with WWE and told Vince so. Some may not agree with me but I feel with all that I've read and heard about the situation that Vince abused and took for granted Bret's loyalty and that caused the rift. We all know Vince is a businessman first; he gave Bret opportunity that he worked hard for. Bret just didnt like being "screwed", pardon the pun.

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01-09-2013, 08:03 AM
  #62
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no, bret hart doesn't belong anywhere near this list...he may not be a top drawer in history, but he was one of the best technicians i ever saw in a ring...

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01-09-2013, 10:17 AM
  #63
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bret hart is not in this discussion he consistently had great matches
Depends on what the criteria is for worst champion. Hart also had trouble pulling out a great match if his opponent wasnt on his level and shows just how elite HBK was when he could take anybody and make them look like a million bucks.

I think its about drawing power, something Hart couldnt do when he had the ball. Yokozuna drew better then Bret Hart, sad but true. Meltzer, who is a Hart fan even stated that Harts drawing power as champ is one of the worst ever in the history of the show and that the amount of bleating HHH gets as a top guy is backed up by stats that he drew almost five times what Hart could at house shows and thats when house shows were the WWE's bread and butter. HHH out drew Hart in Canada, where Hart wouldnt do the honors and drop the title like a man.

Harts has always placed his international star power out there for anybody to hear, but the truth of the matter is Hart was on the top of the card when the WWE took their brand worldwide and was at the right place at the right time considering the world wanted WWE more then just wanting to see Hart.

Say what you want about Nash, and he is steaming crap. But, he also was at the top of the card when the NWO formed and has how many high drawing PPV's with his name on top because of it, while once Hart left the E, he was pretty much delegated to mid card status while in WCW, where his career died away from Vince and the WWE hype machine, exactly what Vince said would happen.

Great, formulatic matches where the five moves of doom happen mean nothing if nobody is watching them in the first place. Bret Hart is the most over rated wrestler in the history of the sport and the only person who actually thinks he is one of the all time greats in Bret Hart and Bret Hart only.

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01-09-2013, 10:22 AM
  #64
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Bret Hart was IMO one of the greatest of all time. I may be biased as I'm one of the biggest Hit man fans there are, but even his detractors have to admit he's a HOF'er. His in-ring work was impeccable and has to be considered one of the top 5 technical wrestlers of all time. The struggles he went through to get to the peak of his career are no doubt impressive.

WCW offered Bret more money although he wanted to stay with WWE and told Vince so. Some may not agree with me but I feel with all that I've read and heard about the situation that Vince abused and took for granted Bret's loyalty and that caused the rift. We all know Vince is a businessman first; he gave Bret opportunity that he worked hard for. Bret just didnt like being "screwed", pardon the pun.
Ric Flair has come out and destroyed Hart.

Same with HHH
HBK
Paul Orndorf
Harley Race, as per Ric Flair, has knocked Hart.

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01-09-2013, 10:28 PM
  #65
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Bret must have run over Martinis dog or something. Bret is one of the all time greats. So that makes more than just Bret thinking so and I know there are millions more. Bret does not belong in this discussion at all.

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01-10-2013, 02:50 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Astraphobia Catalyst View Post
Bret must have run over Martinis dog or something. Bret is one of the all time greats. So that makes more than just Bret thinking so and I know there are millions more. Bret does not belong in this discussion at all.
Wait, whut?

Surely my opinion about Hart being the worst WWE Champion can be debated, but one of the all time greats? You are joking, right?


Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Jim Londos, Hulk Hogan,Rikidozan, Bruno Sammartino....Bret Hart?

Sorry, one of those things is not like the other. All have a track record of drawing money with the one exception being Bret Hart didnt draw a dime and is a black mark on those wrestlers to even consider him among them, sad but true.

Now, back on topic, Bret Hart is the worst WWE Champion of all time for the entire package that he was. But, considering many here were young in his heyday, lets break it down into the most important categories;

Drawning power- Hart didnt draw, the most important prerequsite of being champion is putting butts in seats. Hart had neumerous shots to carry the belt and failed each and every time. Dont believe me?

http://www.wrestlingdata.com/index.p...&jahrzehnt=199

Facts dont lie. Hart has one huge card where he was in the ME, and the Wembley show had more to do with Bulldog drawing and the WWE actually going there then Hart. Delve more into the serch there and you will find out that Hart was out drawn by Yokozuna of all people during his reign as champion. So bad, they had to bring Hogan back for a WM only to drop the belt back again to Yoko. If Hart was good, he would have been the one taking the title, but he didnt.

Hart has the title of being the second worst drawing Champion in the history of the WWE. Nash is the worst, but he also didnt have as many chances with the belt as Hart.

Workrate- Nobody is saying Hart wasnt an above average worker, he was. But he isnt Kurt Angle by any stretch, either. Watch his matches closely, and you see so much Billington influance that they should have named Hart Dynamite Bret. He practicaly copied DK to the point that he was wearing the same style wrestling gear when he first went into the WWE. When the sale was made, Vince wanted Dynamite and Stu wouldnt let him go unless Vince took Bret with him. Bret built his wrestling style off of Dynamite Kid and that fact cant be denied. DK has influanced countless wrestlers to the point that I would put him alot higher on the all time list then Bret Hart. You hear even to this day, how certain wrestlers remind somebody of DK. You dont hear many saying they remind somebody of Bret Hart. Hart had a routine, the five moves of doom, made sure to put them in each match, and that was it. I can think of two matches that I would say were Bret Hart classics, his match with SC, and his cage match with his brother, thats it. Hart was excellent when he had a decent worker with him, but he couldnt put a top notch match in with a complete slug like Nash. HBK could, but HBK is that much better then Hart.

Promos- Hart was horrible on the mic.

Politics- I give him credit here. He played politics just as much as he used to accuse HBK of doing. He was just as much a diva with his refusals to to the job. Not only that, but parlayed his status to get a news colum where he could openly be bitter about everything that happened to him and make himself look the delusional twit he became, taking shots a legends who paved the way for him to get a multi-million dollar deal with Turners money. It made him look like a child and pretty much sealed his fate as somebody who thought they were something, but was proven once the Vince machine wasnt behind him, he really was just another wrestler, crying from the sidelines like a hypocrite.

And there you have it. Bret Harts legacy is the screwjob, nothing more. He gets credit from me for bringing about the Mr. Mcmahon character and the timeless line of " Bret screwed Bret". His workrate shouldnt be excluded, but it should be placed exactly at what it was, above average when compared to HBK, who was producing great matches at every stop on the tour and twice as much on PPV. If Hart made money, Vince never would have allowed him to leave. He just didnt, no matter what Russo thought would work for him. The prototypical used up wrestler whom Vince threw to the side the second he had no use for him, and was nothing more then a trainwreck in WCW.

And with all that, clearly he is the worst WWE Champion ever.

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01-10-2013, 05:16 AM
  #67
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Ric Flair has come out and destroyed Hart.

Same with HHH
HBK
Paul Orndorf
Harley Race, as per Ric Flair, has knocked Hart.
Ric Flair called Mick Foley a "glorified stuntman". He's got problems of his own; I wouldn't rely on his opinion.
Shawn Michaels has had problems with Bret in the past as he was tight with Triple H and seemed at odds with him in wanting to become the top dog in the company. HBK is cool with him now as he is scheduled to make an appearance signing with Bret in the early Spring.
Orndorff is delusional.
Harley Race as PER FLAIR? See my Flair response above.

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01-10-2013, 11:35 AM
  #68
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From what I understand, Shawn Micahels and Triple H have only knocked Bret for personal reason, not his in ring performance.

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01-10-2013, 11:56 AM
  #69
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The only thing I've heard people knock Bret for is that he's a mark for himself. He said that himself too.

Otherwise, I've always heard people having respect for Hart. He wasn't the biggest draw, but in his era, he drew more than HBK - except in about that last year before he left, and Vince saw that when he let Bret leave.

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01-10-2013, 12:04 PM
  #70
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The only thing I've heard people knock Bret for is that he's a mark for himself. He said that himself too.

Otherwise, I've always heard people having respect for Hart. He wasn't the biggest draw, but in his era, he drew more than HBK - except in about that last year before he left, and Vince saw that when he let Bret leave.
Possibly another factor is at that time WCW was big.
I know he has a huge international following.

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01-10-2013, 01:10 PM
  #71
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Possibly another factor is at that time WCW was big.
I know he has a huge international following.
He was a bigger draw than HBK even in WWE, except for the final year. About three months before Survivor Series, Vince pretty much ALLOWED Hart to get up and walk away and sign with WCW if I remember the story correctly. He knew HBK would be better suited for the direction WWE was heading in at the time, a direction which Hart was against as well.

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01-10-2013, 01:45 PM
  #72
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Is this a joke? Bret Hart was an "above average worker" and was "terrible on the mic"!?

What a load of crap! This isn't even a debate, it is just one guy bashing the **** out of Bret Hart for whatever reason and everyone trying their best not to flame the **** out of him in return.

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01-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #73
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He was a bigger draw than HBK even in WWE, except for the final year. About three months before Survivor Series, Vince pretty much ALLOWED Hart to get up and walk away and sign with WCW if I remember the story correctly. He knew HBK would be better suited for the direction WWE was heading in at the time, a direction which Hart was against as well.


No he wasnt;

JANUARY

Top 5 Results
1. 2001: 12,263 (WWF World Champion Kurt Angle)
2. 2000: 11,801 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
3. 1999: 11,195 (WWF World Champion The Rock/Mick Foley)
4. 1998: 7,603 (WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels)
5. 2002: 7,329 (WWF World Champion Chris Jericho)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1994: 2,880 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
2. 1995: 2,900 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
3. 2004: 3,577 (World Champions: Triple H/Brock Lesnar)
4. 1993: 3,660 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
5. 2005: 4,180 (World Champions Triple H/JBL)


FEBRUARY

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 14,082 (WWF World Champion The Rock/Mick Foley)
2. 2000: 11,842 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
3. 2001: 10,462 (WWF World Champion Kurt Angle/The Rock)
4. 1998: 9,464 (WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels)
5. 2002: 8,776 (WWF World Champion Chris Jericho)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1994: 3,130 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
2. 1993: 3,410 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1995: 3,590 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
4. 2004: 3,884 (World Champions Triple H, Brock Lesnar and Eddie Guerrero)
5. 2005: 4,460 (World Champions Triple H and JBL)

MARCH

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 13,404 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
2. 2000: 11,894 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
3. 2001: 11,113 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
4. 1998: 10,363 (WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels)
5. 2002: 8,565 (WWF World Champion Chris Jericho)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1995: 3,190 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
2. 1994: 3,450 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
3. 1993: 4,040 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
4. 2006: 4,661 (World Champions John Cena and Kurt Angle)
5. 2005: 4,617 (World Champions Triple H and JBL)

APRIL

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 12,894 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
2. 2000: 12,438 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
3. 2009: 10,638 (World Champions Triple H and Edge)
4. 2001: 10,094 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 2005: 9,120 (World Champions John Cena and Batista)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1993: 3,200 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
2. 1994: 3,370 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1995: 3,530 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
4. 1992: 3,570 (WWF World Champion Randy Savage)
5. 2004: 4,012 (World Champions Chris Benoit & Eddie Guerrero)

MAY

Top 5 Results
1. 2000: 11,997 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
2. 1999: 11,447 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
3. 2001: 10,482 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
4. 1998: 9,382 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 2009: 6,810 (World Champions Randy Orton and Edge)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1995: 3,440 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
2. 1994: 3,570 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 2005: 3,593 (World Champions John Cena and Batista)
4. 1993: 3,650 (WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan)
5. 2004: 3,868 (World Champions Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero)

JUNE

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 12,216 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
2. 2000: 12,028 (WWF World Champion Triple H/The Rock)
3. 1998: 9,568 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
4. 2001: 8,724 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 2008: 6,811 (World Champions Triple H/The Undertaker)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1993: 2,610 (WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan/Yokozuna)
2. 1995: 3,000 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
3. 2006: 3,692 (World Champions John Cena, RVD and Triple H)
4. 1992: 3,900 (WWF World Champion Randy Savage)
5. 1994: 3,940 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)

JULY

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 12,317 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
2. 2000: 12,263 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
3. 1998: 9,549 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
4. 2001: 8,479 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 1991: 6,600 (WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1994: 1,950 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
2. 1995: 2,980 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
3. 1993: 3,100 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
4. 2004: 3,279 (World Champions Chris Benoit and JBL)
5. 1992: 3,990 (WWF World Champion Randy Savage)

AUGUST

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 12,243 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
2. 1998: 11,311 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
3. 2000: 11,010 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
4. 2001: 8,790 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 1996: 5,520 (WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1995: 2,300 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
2. 1994: 2,470 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 2006: 3,234 (World Champions Edge and Booker T)
4. 1992: 3,250 (WWF World Champion Randy Savage)
5. 2005: 3,884 (World Champions John Cena and Batista)

SEPTEMBER

Top 5 Results
1. 2000: 11,053 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
2. 2001: 9,133 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
3. 1999: 8,593 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
4. 1998: 8,526 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)
5. 2009: 5,339 (World Champions CM Punk, Randy Orton and John Cena)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1995: 1,940 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash
2. 1994: 2.470 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1992: 3,280 (WWF World Champion Ric Flair)
4. 2004: 3,304 (World Champions Chris Benoit and JBL)
5. 2005: 3,332 (World Champions John Cena and Batista)

OCTOBER

Top 5 Results
1. 1999: 11,862 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
2. 1998: 11,084 (WWF World Title Vacant)
3. 2000: 10,947 (WWF World Champion The Rock/Kurt Angle)
4. 2007: 7,150 (World Champions Randy Orton and Batista)
5. 2001: 6,630 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1994: 2,880 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
2. 1995: 3,170 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
3. 2004: 3,245 (World Champions JBL and Triple H)
4. 1993: 3,290 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
5. 1992: 3,310 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)

NOVEMBER

Top 5 Results
1. 1998: 12,341 (WWF World Title Vacant)
2. 1997: 12,341 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1999: 11,981 (WWF World Champion Triple H)
4. 2000: 9,890 (WWF World Champion Kurt Angle)
5. 1996: 7,440 (WWF World Champion Shawn Michaels)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1992: 2,840 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
2. 1994: 3,200 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1993: 3,300 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
4. 2004: 3,350 (World Champions Triple H and JBL)
5. 2005: 3,511 (World Champions John Cena and Batista)

DECEMBER

Top 5 Results
1. 1998: 12,963 (WWF World Champion The Rock)
2. 1999: 11,974 (WWF World Champion The Big Show)
3. 2000: 10,353 (WWF World Champion Kurt Angle)
4. 2008: 7,735 (World Champions Edge, Jeff Hardy and John Cena)
5. 2001: 7,685 (WWF World Champion Steve Austin/Chris Jericho)

Bottom 5 Results
1. 1994: 1,980 (WWF World Champion Kevin ?Diesel? Nash)
2. 1992: 3,210 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
3. 1995: 3,230 (WWF World Champion Bret Hart)
4. 1993: 3,430 (WWF World Champion Yokozuna)
5. 1996: 3,500 (WWF World Champion Sid Vicious)

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01-10-2013, 03:03 PM
  #74
M.C.G. 31
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I fail to see what these stats show. 1993-1995 was the worst time for the business in general. Not even Hogan drew as a babyface.

Bret Hart was the biggest draw at the time, more than Michaels. HBK only drew in America, where your numbers are most likely from. Hart was a worldwide draw and a mega draw in Canada.

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01-10-2013, 03:37 PM
  #75
Martini*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince McMahon View Post
I fail to see what these stats show. 1993-1995 was the worst time for the business in general. Not even Hogan drew as a babyface.
Yes, he did;

1993:
*Bret Hart: 32 dates with an average of 3,863 per show
*Hulk Hogan: 11 dates with an average of 5,982 per show
*Yokozuna: 61 dates with an average of 4,289 per show

1994:
*Yokozuna: 13 dates with an average of 3,823 per show
*Bret Hart: 66 dates with an average of 3,985 per show
*Diesel: 8 dates with an average of 2,103 per show

1995:
*Diesel: 58 dates with an average of 3,095 per show
*Bret Hart: 20 dates with an average of 3,175 per show

Those 11 dates were tag matches with Beefcake against Money Inc. The decline in interest in wrestling is just an excuse considering Hogan could draw then. But lets not get ahead of ourselves considering Hogan is an icon while Hart was nothing but a above average worker. Two different entities and not fair to Hart considering who he was up against at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince McMahon View Post
Bret Hart was the biggest draw at the time,
No. And statistical fact backs me up on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince McMahon View Post
more than Michaels.
Again, no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince McMahon View Post
HBK only drew in America, where your numbers are most likely from.
No. They are an average of the entire tour of the year. HBK was just as much an "international star" that Hart was considering he drew better gates while across seas. The thing is, you dont hear HBK bringing it up every chance he gets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince McMahon View Post
Hart was a worldwide draw and a mega draw in Canada.
HHH drew bigger gates then Hart in canada. Per Meltzer. So where this idea that Hart was some supreme draw in canada is unfounded in actual fact and numbers.

Bret Hart was a transitional champion who was given the belt until Vince could find a better replacement. Luger, Nash, and finally HBk were given runs with the belt and HBK won out. Now, I understand many here are fans of Hart, but taken all the statistical information into evidence, actual fact proves that Hart couldnt draw a dime, and didnt, and is something even workers have stated countless times. Imo, drawing money is the main reason Hart is the worst WWE champion ever. He couldnt. And didnt.

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