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Off-Season Madness the 16th: Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

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01-03-2013, 01:04 PM
  #301
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Overall a very good pitcher. Slow as molasses but none the less.

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01-03-2013, 01:09 PM
  #302
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frasor blew it too often in the clutch
he was a decent 7th inning guy

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01-03-2013, 01:46 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Can we at least keep Laura?
Shimso's gonna be pissed.

I, like many here so far, liked Frasor myself. The last member of that pretty potent bullpen from the mid-2000s with Speier, Schoeneweis, Downs, Tallet, Accardo, Walker, Miller, League and BJ.

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01-03-2013, 01:52 PM
  #304
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frasor blew it too often in the clutch
he was a decent 7th inning guy
Not really. Not any more than most other relievers. Problem is that like almost any relief pitcher who's not a closer, people remember the handful of bad outings far easier than they do the large number of good ones.

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01-03-2013, 01:56 PM
  #305
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Threw strikes, was a good soldier. All the best to him and his lovely fiance.

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01-03-2013, 01:57 PM
  #306
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Meanwhile, Buster Olney is continuing to do his "Top 10 ________ in the majors" pieces. Today was offensive lineups (just as hitters, ignoring defence).

The Jays placed 8th

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...ups-majors-mlb

Quote:
The two guys who mash in the middle of the lineup, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion, could combine for 80 homers, and the cast around them could be excellent. Jose Reyes, the leadoff man, scored 86 runs last season for a bad Marlins team, and he could be the best leadoff man in the AL. Brett Lawrie and Colby Rasmus could develop into upper-tier players. Melky Cabrera could be a star. But the difference between the Blue Jays' ceiling and their possible floor -- if Reyes can't stay healthy, if the drugs were difference-making for Cabrera -- appears stark. This is just another reason why Toronto is going to be such an interesting team.


A tangible difference: Bautista had an OPS of 1.055 in 2011, with a WAR of 7.7. In an injury-plagued 2012, his on-base average plummeted 89 points to .358, and his WAR fell to 3.2. If the Blue Jays are to climb in the way that some forecasters expect, he will need to get back to being the player he was in 2010 (when he had 92 extra-base hits) and 2011.
Add this to the fact that he also said that the Jays were:

7th in starting rotations
7th in infields (counting Encarnacion as the 1B and Bonifacio/Izturis both at 2B)
an honorable mention for outfields

and things are looking pretty good.

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01-03-2013, 01:57 PM
  #307
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Threw strikes, was a good soldier. All the best to him and his lovely fiance.
I think they're already married.

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01-03-2013, 02:03 PM
  #308
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I think they're already married.
My mistake, I wasn't sure.

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01-03-2013, 02:05 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Meanwhile, Buster Olney is continuing to do his "Top 10 ________ in the majors" pieces. Today was offensive lineups (just as hitters, ignoring defence).

The Jays placed 8th

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...ups-majors-mlb



Add this to the fact that he also said that the Jays were:

7th in starting rotations
7th in infields (counting Encarnacion as the 1B and Bonifacio/Izturis both at 2B)
an honorable mention for outfields

and things are looking pretty good.
I'm actually surprised we were top 10 in infields.

The only gold glove candidate I see is Lawrie. Reyes is a good defender but there are a handful of better defensive SS. Izturis and Bonifacio are similar to Reyes imo, although I'll admit I haven't seen a ton of EB at 2nd... and EE hasn't ever played a full season.

But I will admit we've got a ton of potential defensively.

For the first time since I can remember we don't have a guy who I'm going "please god don't hit it to _______"

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01-03-2013, 02:19 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
For the first time since I can remember we don't have a guy who I'm going "please god don't hit it to _______"
The days of the Corey Patterson's and Eric Thames' of the world roaming the field are long gone. I think we'll still curse Izturiz's name on occasion just because of the frequency at which he has to make plays but overall, it looks to be a much more stable defensive group.

As for the ESPN articles, I think you'd have to be pretty brave to say they're better than where they have them. Easily a top 10 team, but they have to prove it first.

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01-03-2013, 02:23 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
I'm actually surprised we were top 10 in infields.

The only gold glove candidate I see is Lawrie. Reyes is a good defender but there are a handful of better defensive SS. Izturis and Bonifacio are similar to Reyes imo, although I'll admit I haven't seen a ton of EB at 2nd... and EE hasn't ever played a full season.

But I will admit we've got a ton of potential defensively.

For the first time since I can remember we don't have a guy who I'm going "please god don't hit it to _______"
yeah i'm happy with everyone in the infield even Encarnacion should be decent enough at 1st.

Personally I wouldn't go as far as using Lawrie and gold glove in the same sentence but its pretty crazy some will considering he had limited experience at the position just 18 months ago. I'm thrilled with the way he's grown at the position.

Happy with Reyes at shortstop he's at least average defensively.

I wish we had Aaron Hill at second base. Izturis will be fine at second base and I actually think he's going to be pretty good for us but I miss Aaron Hill, he was my favourite player. He was above average defensively and always looked good doing it. He would look good in the lineup behind Bautista and Encarnacion if your ok with 3 righties in a row.


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01-03-2013, 02:41 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
I'm actually surprised we were top 10 in infields.

The only gold glove candidate I see is Lawrie. Reyes is a good defender but there are a handful of better defensive SS. Izturis and Bonifacio are similar to Reyes imo, although I'll admit I haven't seen a ton of EB at 2nd... and EE hasn't ever played a full season.

But I will admit we've got a ton of potential defensively.

For the first time since I can remember we don't have a guy who I'm going "please god don't hit it to _______"

What Olney had to say:

Quote:
It's a group that seems to have excellent potential: Edwin Encarnacion at first base, coming off a season in which he clubbed 42 homers and drove in 110 runs; shortstop Jose Reyes, winner of the NL batting title two years ago; Emilio Bonifacio and Maicer Izturis at second base; and the crazily talented Brett Lawrie at third base, where he has quickly adapted defensively. But as with all teams, there are questions: Is Encarnacion just a late bloomer, like Jose Bautista, or a one-year wonder? Can Reyes, who has a long history of leg problems, stay healthy while playing on Toronto's artificial surface? How much will Bonifacio -- who has been successful in 82 of 96 stolen-base attempts over the last three seasons -- contribute as a regular player?

The X factor: When you listen to rival evaluators talk about Lawrie, they sound like old cowboys talking about a mustang they saw running across the range. Lawrie impresses the heck out of them with his physical tools and his passion, yet they have doubts about whether he can ever be reined in and refined in a way that allows him to become an elite player. "Totally out of control," said one longtime rival coach, noting that at times, it looks like Lawrie will just keep running on the bases until somebody tags him out. Lawrie posted an OPS of .729 last season, and his average of pitches per plate appearance declined significantly, from 4.07 to 3.66. Remember, he's just 22; he turns 23 in a couple of weeks. Clearly, Lawrie could be a great player. Or not.
He's right though. Encarnacion has shown solid potential at 1st. Lawrie shows a ton of potential defensively at 3rd (and is already very good). Reyes is a good defender even if he can make mistakes from time to time. Izturis is a solid defender. Bonifacio isn't great, but has enough athleticism to be good enough. Add to that the fact that both Izturis and Bonifacio can play multiple positions which give them extra value and it's much the same story as the lineup: The potential to be very good, or the potential to be disappointing, but good enough overall to justify their ranking.

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01-03-2013, 02:44 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
What Olney had to say:



He's right though. Encarnacion has shown solid potential at 1st. Lawrie shows a ton of potential defensively at 3rd (and is already very good). Reyes is a good defender even if he can make mistakes from time to time. Izturis is a solid defender. Bonifacio isn't great, but has enough athleticism to be good enough. Add to that the fact that both Izturis and Bonifacio can play multiple positions which give them extra value and it's much the same story as the lineup: The potential to be very good, or the potential to be disappointing, but good enough overall to justify their ranking.
Haha I REALLY hope that "rival coach" is John Farrell

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01-03-2013, 02:50 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
Meanwhile, Buster Olney is continuing to do his "Top 10 ________ in the majors" pieces. Today was offensive lineups (just as hitters, ignoring defence).

The Jays placed 8th

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/...ups-majors-mlb



Add this to the fact that he also said that the Jays were:

7th in starting rotations
7th in infields (counting Encarnacion as the 1B and Bonifacio/Izturis both at 2B)
an honorable mention for outfields

and things are looking pretty good.
On another board I'm on a guy posts all the stuff so I saw the other teams and I'm wondering why he picked some of the teams he did. The Brewers are #2 and the Cardinals are #3. As well Boston is ahead of us a #6. I don't feel like any of those lineups are significantly better or even a little better than the Jays.

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01-03-2013, 02:56 PM
  #315
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Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Some officials now convinced that it'll be Upton, rather than Kubel, who will be the outfielder that Arizona moves before start of its camp.

I know its incredibly unlikely but just for curiosity sake what do you think it would take. A Upton,Melky,Jose outfield would sure look nice.

Would a Colby, Sanchez, stroman type package get it done?

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01-03-2013, 03:04 PM
  #316
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SN 590 The FAN ‏@FAN590

The @Rangers have signed former @BlueJays reliever Jason #Frasor to a one-year deal.
Best of luck to him with the Rangers.

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01-03-2013, 03:16 PM
  #317
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Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Some officials now convinced that it'll be Upton, rather than Kubel, who will be the outfielder that Arizona moves before start of its camp.

I know its incredibly unlikely but just for curiosity sake what do you think it would take. A Upton,Melky,Jose outfield would sure look nice.

Would a Colby, Sanchez, stroman type package get it done?
We don't have the quality to trade for Upton. Looking at probably the same haul the Jays paid for Dickey. 2 top prospects +.

My best guess in terms of value would be Gose + Sanchez. While I guess theoretically we could do it, I don't think we should do it, nor does it make sense.

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01-03-2013, 03:52 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight K Schrute View Post
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Some officials now convinced that it'll be Upton, rather than Kubel, who will be the outfielder that Arizona moves before start of its camp.

I know its incredibly unlikely but just for curiosity sake what do you think it would take. A Upton,Melky,Jose outfield would sure look nice.

Would a Colby, Sanchez, stroman type package get it done?
We don't have the pieces left to even entertain that idea. Dickey cost us 2 of our best prospects (including our best) and he's already in his late 30s. Getting a young OF with MVP potential would be more than that. Like start with Gose & Sanchez and keep adding significantly from there.

edit: and it turns out I just repeated what topched said 45 minutes ago

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01-03-2013, 04:22 PM
  #319
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Not really. Not any more than most other relievers. Problem is that like almost any relief pitcher who's not a closer, people remember the handful of bad outings far easier than they do the large number of good ones.
yup
but come on now not the slightest little cringe if they went to frasor in the 8th in a tie game ?
"oh no, not frasor..."

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01-03-2013, 04:25 PM
  #320
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yup
but come on now not the slightest little cringe if they went to frasor in the 8th in a tie game ?
Actually, no. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I was fine giving him the ball in high leverage situations. Sure, if he'd had a few rough outings prior I would be a little uneasy, but I trusted him more than most guys during the last few years.

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01-03-2013, 04:27 PM
  #321
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yup
but come on now not the slightest little cringe if they went to frasor in the 8th in a tie game ?
I was far more worried about Francisco, Rauch, Accardo (except for 1 season), League, Tallet Camp and heck even Ryan at the end.

For a number of years there it seemed like every year Frasor would start in that middle relief role and end up with a setup or on some occasions closer role because somebody else had failed.

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01-03-2013, 04:42 PM
  #322
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yup
but come on now not the slightest little cringe if they went to frasor in the 8th in a tie game ?
"oh no, not frasor..."
not really, no. Not anymore than most other relievers (the likes of Corderpo or Gregg notwithstanding)

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01-03-2013, 04:45 PM
  #323
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not really, no. Not anymore than most other relievers (the likes of Corderpo or Gregg notwithstanding)
Dear god I compeltely forgot about Kevin Gregg.

The only position we've had more turnover other than closer is SS.

Mike Bordick, Russ Adams, Royce Clayton, David Eckstein... and the list goes on

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01-03-2013, 04:57 PM
  #324
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why would oliver be considering retirement ?
we've got a good thing going here and he can be our situation lefty

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01-03-2013, 05:04 PM
  #325
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why would oliver be considering retirement ?
we've got a good thing going here and he can be our situation lefty
He's old...REALLY old and TO is far away from his family.

He's also been on some pretty good teams that haven't been able to win a WS... Mets, Angels and Rangers. Its not a given that we'll make the playoffs or even go on a run. The fact that he's still considering retirement should be evidence that he's concerned with more than just his chances of winning a WS.

All we can think about is how sick it would be to play in the majors, but when you're 42 and made your debut 20 years ago its gotta be hard to convince yourself to start training hard to prepare and then leave your family for 9 months of the year.

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