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All CBA talk. A deal? A deal!!!

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01-03-2013, 06:35 PM
  #551
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
One thing I'll never understand is fans incessant need to take sides in these negotiations. I feel like people use this stuff as an excuse to bicker at each other since we don't have the Sabres for that.
Are you saying it's illogical to believe that one side is justified in their demands and the other not?

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01-03-2013, 07:49 PM
  #552
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Are you saying it's illogical to believe that one side is justified in their demands and the other not?
In this case, it's like two serial killers arguing over whether to use a hacksaw or a screwdriver for the deed. Either way, there's a victim, and it's not one of the two idiots arguing. It's stupid to take sides in this debate because neither side cares about us.

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01-03-2013, 07:54 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Rhett4 View Post
In this case, it's like two serial killers arguing over whether to use a hacksaw or a screwdriver for the deed. Either way, there's a victim, and it's not one of the two idiots arguing. It's stupid to take sides in this debate because neither side cares about us.
Hopefully the victim gets to put his two cents in.... a screwdriver seems like a ****ty way to die.

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01-03-2013, 07:55 PM
  #554
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While we speculate as to what the obstacles are to a new cba I just saw on Score Sports that the union is now asking for a defined benefit pension plan. My understanding was that the union had a pension fund primarily paid into by the owners and that there were negotiations to increase the fund. This is the first I heard of a defined benefit plan with guarantees by the owners as to benefits on retirement--that is the owners pick up the tab if the fund--not run by the owners does not generate enough revenue to pay the defined benefit--whatever that is. NO ONE is going there anymore--the huge stock market swings have killed many big businesses who had agreed to do this. Basically only government does this now--with predictable results. Is this another Fehr ploy - a poison pill to sabotage talks or something else?

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01-03-2013, 07:59 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
JJ - I'm well aware of the previous drama within the NHLPA, and to take that route you can also say the turmoil had to do with getting bulldozed by the owners in 2005. Chicken..egg...chicken. They're both at fault because it's not just about what's best for the league between these groups, it's about getting even or getting one over on the other side.
What? To dismiss Paul Kelly's ouster or what that ouster meant in terms of a power struggle within the PA as simple "drama". Well that tells me you really don't have a strong grasp of the Kelly fiasco and its impact on the current situation.

I'm actually amazed at the level of ignorance some posters have when it comes to the NHLPA and what it is. Its corruption, dirty dealing and underhanded crap and thats just within its own ranks. Its been a sleazy organization its entire existance minus the Kelly years. Paul Kelly tried to fix the problems and uncover the dirt. He also worked to have a stronger relationship with the NHL to prevent the type of labor strife we are seeing now. What did it get him? Ousted by the very scum he had investigated by a former FBI agent. the majority of players had no idea why it happened and still don't.

The NHLPA hardliners are as cutthroat as any NHL owner out there, probably more so than most.


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01-03-2013, 08:14 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
But the players, in your mind, are the bad guys because they saw what was going on with the NHL and reacted to it. The NHLPA understood the type of folks they would be up against and their actions reflected that understanding.



My post is refering to the naive ignorance of many anti-owner posters that think this CBA battle started with the owner's first proposal. Or think the NHLPA is this bastion of good against the corrupt greed of the owners.

I didn't accused the players of being the bad guys in the current labor fight. I simply laid out their negotiating strategy.


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01-03-2013, 08:53 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm actually amazed at the level of ignorance some posters have when it comes to the NHLPA and what it is. Its corruption, dirty dealing and underhanded crap. And thats just within its own ranks. Paul Kelly tried to fix that as well as have a stronger relationship with the NHL to prevent the type of labor strife we are seeing now. What did it get him? Ousted by the very scum he had investigated by a former FBI agent. the majority of players had no idea why it happened and still don't.
The amount of ex players that have a hand in what goes on with the NHLPA is what always confuses me. I get it, you guys put the time in and you want to "further the game you love" for future generations. But that isn't what they end up doing. They dig themselves so deep into the structure they're impossible to get rid of and then play politicians. There's an alumni if you want to stay close to the game. The fact that we are in a lockout right now because Eric Lindros didn't like the lack of "respect" Paul Kelly gave him is ****ing insane to me.

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01-03-2013, 08:58 PM
  #558
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I don't want to get ahead of myself but one of my assistant coaches who works at the arena told me tonight that he was called by the Sabres yesterday. They told him to be ready to get the ice up and running for a training camp in a week or so.


Obviously that could just be the Sabres covering their bases but I'm hopeful.

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01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
  #559
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Obviously that could just be the Sabres covering their bases but I'm hopeful.
Well there's either a season on the 11th or there isn't so they're probably just being safe. However pushing the hyperbole in tweets aside I think both teams meeting with mediators tomorrow morning to hammer out the final 2 or 3 issues is nothing but a good thing.

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01-04-2013, 10:25 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by hizzoner View Post
While we speculate as to what the obstacles are to a new cba I just saw on Score Sports that the union is now asking for a defined benefit pension plan. My understanding was that the union had a pension fund primarily paid into by the owners and that there were negotiations to increase the fund. This is the first I heard of a defined benefit plan with guarantees by the owners as to benefits on retirement--that is the owners pick up the tab if the fund--not run by the owners does not generate enough revenue to pay the defined benefit--whatever that is. NO ONE is going there anymore--the huge stock market swings have killed many big businesses who had agreed to do this. Basically only government does this now--with predictable results. Is this another Fehr ploy - a poison pill to sabotage talks or something else?
Here's some info on that issue from the NY Daily News.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...meetings-wedne

Quote:
On Dec. 6, when union boss Don Fehr told the hockey world they were close to a deal and commissioner Gary Bettman shot that claim down with a rant for the ages, Fehr said: “We believe and we hope we have an agreement on the pension plan for the players, which will be funded out of player money. We have an agreement on it. That’s a good thing.”

Player-funded pensions would mark a significant difference from the recently-expired CBA, in which the NHL clubs were responsible for 75% of pensions and the NHL players’ association kicked in 25%, according to Article 21.3 of the agreement.

Bettman said on Dec. 6 that the owners had been willing to address the players’ concerns about pension funding but wanted concessions in other specific areas first and never received them. Therefore, when the NHL presented its revised proposals Thursday and Monday that moved closer to the union on some issues, the league included a few new wrinkles in the pension area.

Specifically, Thursday’s proposal said that the pension plan would be funded from the players’ share of annual revenue, and it also specified that “$50 million of the ‘Make-Whole’ payment amount of $300 million will be allocated and set aside to fund potential underfunding liabilities of the Plan at end of CBA,” according to a document obtained by ESPN.

The NHL and NHLPA therefore are debating which side would be liable to make up the difference in payments if league revenues in any given year do not provide adequate funds to match the players’ projected pension number.

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01-04-2013, 10:35 AM
  #561
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A good read from Mirtle on variance and why it matters. It even has some nice graphs to help explain things

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

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01-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by hizzoner View Post
While we speculate as to what the obstacles are to a new cba I just saw on Score Sports that the union is now asking for a defined benefit pension plan. My understanding was that the union had a pension fund primarily paid into by the owners and that there were negotiations to increase the fund. This is the first I heard of a defined benefit plan with guarantees by the owners as to benefits on retirement--that is the owners pick up the tab if the fund--not run by the owners does not generate enough revenue to pay the defined benefit--whatever that is. NO ONE is going there anymore--the huge stock market swings have killed many big businesses who had agreed to do this. Basically only government does this now--with predictable results. Is this another Fehr ploy - a poison pill to sabotage talks or something else?
Pensions are not inherently bad. The problem with many public sector pensions programs is that the actuarial assumptions relied upon by employers were/are ridiculous. For instance, in California, there was an assumption that the pension pool would earn close to 10% per year going forward. That's an absurd assumption. Companies/municipalities who use better assumptions rarely have problems.

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01-04-2013, 11:09 AM
  #563
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Players are currently re-voting to authorize disclaimer of interest. Now we have a report that Bettman is prepared to cancel the season next week.


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...185620012.html

Quote:
The league believes Fehr is unwilling to do a deal until after Bettman has cancelled the NHL season and the union leader is now slowing the process one last time to increase pressure on the commissioner, said the governor late Thursday night. Such a gambit could be put to the test as early as next Thursday and the governor said it will come up empty for the players and finally the fans. If the NHL and NHLPA cannot come to a settlement and sign a new collective bargaining agreement by Thursday of next week, Bettman will announce the cancellation of the 2012-13 season. The governor theorized Fehr will then let things sit for a day or two before trying to leverage Bettman one more time into signing a deal viewed as better for the players.

It won’t work.

The governor said owners and league personnel believe Fehr is trying to blow up the process and is no longer interested in making a deal. They say Bettman is prepared for such an eventuality and will be supported should he elect to cancel the season on Thursday if no deal is done. Bettman will then take off what is currently on the table. Bettman will be willing to listen and talk with Fehr after he cancels the season but it will be on the basis of doing a deal for the 2013-14 season. Once the commissioner cancels this season, a 50-50 share will no longer be offered and the league will pursue a much revamped package because the owners will have no incentive to make the deal that was on the table.
Hopefully the two sides can find time to finish negotiating in between puffing out their chests and trying to stare each other down.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-04-2013 at 11:37 AM.
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01-04-2013, 12:50 PM
  #564
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Players are currently re-voting to authorize disclaimer of interest. Now we have a report that Bettman is prepared to cancel the season next week.

Hopefully the two sides can find time to finish negotiating in between puffing out their chests and trying to stare each other down.
Exactly, it's just chest puffing. They're both reaffirming to each other that they can both go nuclear, so the other side had better make sure they offer their best!

I'm just glad it will be a ten year CBA (even with the year 7/8 provision).

And if they don't come to an agreement... then forget both sides. If they let it get to that point they all deserve to have it blow up in their faces.

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01-04-2013, 02:00 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
What? To dismiss Paul Kelly's ouster or what that ouster meant in terms of a power struggle within the PA as simple "drama". Well that tells me you really don't have a strong grasp of the Kelly fiasco and its impact on the current situation.

I'm actually amazed at the level of ignorance some posters have when it comes to the NHLPA and what it is. Its corruption, dirty dealing and underhanded crap and thats just within its own ranks. Its been a sleazy organization its entire existance minus the Kelly years. Paul Kelly tried to fix the problems and uncover the dirt. He also worked to have a stronger relationship with the NHL to prevent the type of labor strife we are seeing now. What did it get him? Ousted by the very scum he had investigated by a former FBI agent. the majority of players had no idea why it happened and still don't.

The NHLPA hardliners are as cutthroat as any NHL owner out there, probably more so than most.
I didn't say "simple" drama, and my use of the word "drama" was to avoid a long-winded description (which you already covered anyway). I also happen to be an anti-union fiscal conservative that is very happy to work in "right to work" state, with personal experience fighting against illegal city policies without the collective bargaining rights of a union. I'm quite happy with that scenario and feel like I can fight for what's fair and still look myself in the mirror afterward. So please don't get to personal or disrespectful by using "ignorance" to describe the people you don't see completely eye to eye with.

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01-04-2013, 02:04 PM
  #566
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If the ultimate goal is to construct an entirely new business model (which was Fehr's originally stated intent - i.e.; revenue sharing btwn teams), then I think he's as likely as not to let the thing blow up, file the disclaimer and let the fireworks begin.

Quite a legacy for himself if that's the result. (He will have "changed the system" for better or worse.)

I have the impression that there is a nuclear option mindset in an influencial few who are dying to stab the red button with their thumbs.

It seems that everytime progress looks like it is being made, some of the players manage to get ticked off - like what just happened with the latest revenue computation gaffe. And everything's back to stalemate.

I hope you guys are right that this is all part of the process. But the coincidences seem suspicious to me.

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01-04-2013, 02:26 PM
  #567
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If the ultimate goal is to construct an entirely new business model (which was Fehr's originally stated intent - i.e.; revenue sharing btwn teams), then I think he's as likely as not to let the thing blow up, file the disclaimer and let the fireworks begin.

Quite a legacy for himself if that's the result. (He will have "changed the system" for better or worse.)

I have the impression that there is a nuclear option mindset in an influencial few who are dying to stab the red button with their thumbs.

It seems that everytime progress looks like it is being made, some of the players manage to get ticked off - like what just happened with the latest revenue computation gaffe. And everything's back to stalemate.

I hope you guys are right that this is all part of the process. But the coincidences seem suspicious to me.
I really wouldn't be too bothered with what the players are saying. And remember, Fehr's job is to represent the interests of his constituency, who despite all of the "we just want to play " marketing and "We're trying to save the game from Bettman!" silliness, are just looking to maximize their immediate returns.

I don't think the players, who have a very limited window in which they can make their money, actually want to lose their paychecks for the (remainder of the) season. It's in both sides' best interests at this point to wave their respective nukes at each other until the NHL's season deadline is reached. I think the only big question left at this point is if Bettman's date is truly believed to be the point of no return.

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01-04-2013, 09:12 PM
  #568
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I really wouldn't be too bothered with what the players are saying. And remember, Fehr's job is to represent the interests of his constituency, who despite all of the "we just want to play " marketing and "We're trying to save the game from Bettman!" silliness, are just looking to maximize their immediate returns.

I don't think the players, who have a very limited window in which they can make their money, actually want to lose their paychecks for the (remainder of the) season. It's in both sides' best interests at this point to wave their respective nukes at each other until the NHL's season deadline is reached. I think the only big question left at this point is if Bettman's date is truly believed to be the point of no return.
Clock, your response (as usual) makes solid sense and is completely rational...... So I will assume that these folks are rational, realistic and practical........versus characters out of Dr. Strangelove...... and not nut case sociopaths......

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01-05-2013, 07:47 AM
  #569
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I really wouldn't be too bothered with what the players are saying. And remember, Fehr's job is to represent the interests of his constituency, who despite all of the "we just want to play " marketing and "We're trying to save the game from Bettman!" silliness, are just looking to maximize their immediate returns.

I don't think the players, who have a very limited window in which they can make their money, actually want to lose their paychecks for the (remainder of the) season. It's in both sides' best interests at this point to wave their respective nukes at each other until the NHL's season deadline is reached. I think the only big question left at this point is if Bettman's date is truly believed to be the point of no return.
This is what worries me. If Fehr has the stones to call Gary's bluff, does Gary have the ego to cancel the season? I worry the chest pumping goes too far and this is what happens.

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01-05-2013, 10:51 AM
  #570
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I don't think there's any bluff to be called. You need to have at least a 48 game season, and there's only so much time to have it in. Gary's not going to end a season in August. If the deadline proposed didn't seem rational or necessary, maybe you'd have something here, but I think posters just reveal who they're biased against when they presume that even a mid-January deadline to start a hockey season must be a bluff. There's a real world where games have to fit into a calendar that ends in June. It's not a negotiating ploy.

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01-05-2013, 11:49 AM
  #571
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Best interest for everyone to just cancel the season. A truncated, asterisk-laden season in the NHL could not be taken seriously.

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01-05-2013, 12:07 PM
  #572
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Best interest for everyone to just cancel the season. A truncated, asterisk-laden season in the NHL could not be taken seriously.
I disagree. It's not in the interest of fans, whom I care about much more than players or owners.

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01-05-2013, 12:44 PM
  #573
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Best interest for everyone to just cancel the season. A truncated, asterisk-laden season in the NHL could not be taken seriously.
Do you put an asterisk next to the 94-95 Devils season? Crazy talk.

Give me a 60 game season, every season. 82 is too much.

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01-05-2013, 01:15 PM
  #574
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Best interest for everyone to just cancel the season. A truncated, asterisk-laden season in the NHL could not be taken seriously.
define "everyone"

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01-05-2013, 01:22 PM
  #575
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Best interest for everyone to just cancel the season. A truncated, asterisk-laden season in the NHL could not be taken seriously.
It's just a game. How serious do we need to be?

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