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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXX - Naughty Edition

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Old
01-03-2013, 07:50 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
RE: Luongo trades

Does nobody find it the least bit funny that many question Lupul's value, but want a centermen who couldn't hit 50 points with Kessel and Lupul, a middling prospect with his fair share of talent but confidence issues and inconsistent play, and a pick?
I'd take Luoul over Booth though. But I don't want any of that Leaf garbage.

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01-03-2013, 07:56 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
RE: Luongo trades

Does nobody find it the least bit funny that many question Lupul's value, but want a centermen who couldn't hit 50 points with Kessel and Lupul, a middling prospect with his fair share of talent but confidence issues and inconsistent play, and a pick?
Wait, someone wants Bozak? First I've heard of it.

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01-03-2013, 08:36 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
UFA status doesn't bug me all that much, but hearing that Bozak fills a need better then Lupul is just....asinine. Lupul isn't the top tier scoring winger I'd want in a perfect world, but with the new CBA in place and the cap uncertain, I'd gladly accept him over a sub 1/2 ppg player that couldn't elevate his game to either of his two wingers.
Nice to see someone agrees.

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01-03-2013, 10:26 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
UFA status doesn't bug me all that much, but hearing that Bozak fills a need better then Lupul is just....asinine. Lupul isn't the top tier scoring winger I'd want in a perfect world, but with the new CBA in place and the cap uncertain, I'd gladly accept him over a sub 1/2 ppg player that couldn't elevate his game to either of his two wingers.
Agreed. Adding a top 6 forward should be a bigger priority than a third line center, unless that third line center would be elite in that role (someone like Grabovski or Bolland). If those players become available then it becomes easier to consider beefing up the third line, but if we're being offered the Bozak's and Goc's of this world then we are better off pushing for a top 6 forward.

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01-04-2013, 12:30 AM
  #830
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Toronto does it because if they don't, maybe Edmonton does. Maybe Florida does. Maybe Philly or Chicago or Washington does. Maybe Toronto is sick of losing. They went one full CBA term without making the playoffs, I'm sure they're not interested in a second term.
Toronto won't give up Gardiner or Lupul.

As for those other teams:

-Edmonton won't give us enough to warrant trading Lu to a division Rival, we won't get any young stars, niether Gagner and Hemsky aren't all that interesting, we would be lucky to get Paajarvi and for them their goaltending actually wasn't that bad, they need to focus assets on defense, that's a greater need for them.

-As long as Bryz is in Philly they are interested, they don't need 2 goalies signed to life long deals.

-Washington has 2 capable goaltenders, they don't need Lu, they need to focus assets elsewhere

-Lu isn't going to Chicago unless a star player is coming back which won't happen.


Toronto and Florida seem to be the only 2 legitimate partners IMO, and I don't think either have much that could fill our current roster needs, so we should look at acquiring assets for the futurevsince our prospect pool is the weakest part of our organization.

From both teams they are some young players that catch my eye, and could also pose a reasonable deal for the other side aswell. Here are my offers.

Tor: Kadri, Biggs, 2nd

Fla: Petrovic, Howden, 2nd, Skille

(Skille isn't exactly an asset for the future since I don't think he has much upside left [And really he doesn't hold much value in the trade] but I think he would be an excellent 4th liner for us since our 4th line has been pretty much a non-factor in recent playoff years)

We can add aditional minor pieces besides just Luongo, or adjust the deals abit but that is around what I would

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01-04-2013, 01:36 AM
  #831
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Would any Canuck fan really want to see Luongo on the Oilers or Hawks?

Also, do you think it would be fair to compare Thomas Vokoun's movement throughout the years to Luongo's?

At Age 30, he was traded to the Panthers for a 1st and 2nd round pick(+ a conditional second). He didn't have the playoff pedigree in terms of accomplishments like Luongo, but his numbers have always been VERY good. Vokoun did not have a NTC at that time. Fast forward to now, and the 36 year-old Vokoun was traded for a 7th round pick to the Penguins, and he had great #'s again last year...not to mention an AMAZING salary(2mil).

I think Luongo is a better goaltender than Vokoun, but he's not leaps and bounds better IMHO and it's pretty close stats wise.

Luongo's Salary, age, NTC and position(potential back up to Schneider) will all negatively effect his trade value unfortunately.

I can understand that Canuck fans would ideally not want to take back Bozak or Franson in return, but they are by no means 'garbage' players. They are actually quite capable players, however I can agree Luongo is worth more, easily skill for skill.

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01-04-2013, 02:33 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
Would any Canuck fan really want to see Luongo on the Oilers or Hawks?

Also, do you think it would be fair to compare Thomas Vokoun's movement throughout the years to Luongo's?

At Age 30, he was traded to the Panthers for a 1st and 2nd round pick(+ a conditional second). He didn't have the playoff pedigree in terms of accomplishments like Luongo, but his numbers have always been VERY good. Vokoun did not have a NTC at that time. Fast forward to now, and the 36 year-old Vokoun was traded for a 7th round pick to the Penguins, and he had great #'s again last year...not to mention an AMAZING salary(2mil).

I think Luongo is a better goaltender than Vokoun, but he's not leaps and bounds better IMHO and it's pretty close stats wise.

Luongo's Salary, age, NTC and position(potential back up to Schneider) will all negatively effect his trade value unfortunately.

I can understand that Canuck fans would ideally not want to take back Bozak or Franson in return, but they are by no means 'garbage' players. They are actually quite capable players, however I can agree Luongo is worth more, easily skill for skill.
Vokoun`s value when he was traded this past offseason is irrelevant. It was only his rights that were traded, as he would become a UFA in a couple of days otherwise. Also, on the Predators his numbers were far more average goalie than he became later on. And, correct me if I`m wrong, I think he only had one year left on his contract as well.

Luongo for 6 years(realistically), with an established track record of being elite his entire career, is still worth more than that. Of course, if the new CBA somehow manages to close every single loophole in Luongo`s contract, it might lower his value. But until then the length doesn`t work against him, I think.

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01-04-2013, 04:20 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Vokoun`s value when he was traded this past offseason is irrelevant. It was only his rights that were traded, as he would become a UFA in a couple of days otherwise. Also, on the Predators his numbers were far more average goalie than he became later on. And, correct me if I`m wrong, I think he only had one year left on his contract as well.

Luongo for 6 years(realistically), with an established track record of being elite his entire career, is still worth more than that. Of course, if the new CBA somehow manages to close every single loophole in Luongo`s contract, it might lower his value. But until then the length doesn`t work against him, I think.
Very well written, and fair assessment.

I know Vokoun's rights were traded, but for a goalie that had a market it was still given away for less than people believed.

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01-04-2013, 08:39 AM
  #834
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Vokoun was not an average goalie when he became a Panther and he had several years left on his contract at the time. He was seen as someone who struggled in the playoffs as they never made it past the first round.

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01-04-2013, 09:17 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
Very well written, and fair assessment.

I know Vokoun's rights were traded, but for a goalie that had a market it was still given away for less than people believed.
Vokoun was asked where he wanted to go and was dealt to the team he chose for nominal value only. Not to mention he has bounced around and failed to secure a starting job on his last team.

Trying to compare that trade to one involving a star goaltender under contract for several more years whose only previous movement was a trade that got that GM fired is just asinine.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:25 AM
  #836
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Originally Posted by Singh66 View Post
Fast forward to now, and the 36 year-old Vokoun was traded for a 7th round pick to the Penguins, and he had great #'s again last year...not to mention an AMAZING salary(2mil).
Think this just highlights how out to lunch Brian Burke was (eg., just reinforces the belief that his one consistant weakness as a GM is the area of goaltending).

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01-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #837
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Vokoun was not an average goalie when he became a Panther and he had several years left on his contract at the time. He was seen as someone who struggled in the playoffs as they never made it past the first round.
While I can't admit to having watched much of Vokoun as a Predator, looking at his numbers at the start of his career, I would have to disagree. In his 6 years there his sv% was above .910% only twice. In contrast Luongo's sv% has never once fallen below .913%.

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01-04-2013, 09:30 AM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
While I can't admit to having watched much of Vokoun as a Predator, looking at his numbers at the start of his career, I would have to disagree. In his 6 years there his sv% was above .910% only twice. In contrast Luongo's sv% has never once fallen below .913%.
He developed into an All Star on an expansion team and was a big part of their early success.

He's not Roberto Luongo but he was certainly a high calibre goaltender (you could make the argument that Barry Trotz was a big part of his success, I would be inclined to agree but I think you could make similar claims about Pekka Rinne as well).

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01-04-2013, 09:56 AM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
While I can't admit to having watched much of Vokoun as a Predator, looking at his numbers at the start of his career, I would have to disagree. In his 6 years there his sv% was above .910% only twice. In contrast Luongo's sv% has never once fallen below .913%.
Numbers don't tell ya everything. It was known when he was acquired by the Panthers that was a top tier goaltender. We were all excited to get him as it seemed a gaping hole the year prior was the net, but patching that just exposed other issues.

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01-04-2013, 10:00 AM
  #840
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Numbers don't tell ya everything.
Save percentage isn't the "be all end all" of goalie stats, but it's hardly like the "+/-" stat.

But yes, I'd say Vokoun was arguably the most underrated goalie in the NHL during his time as Panther.

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01-04-2013, 10:08 AM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Numbers don't tell ya everything. It was known when he was acquired by the Panthers that was a top tier goaltender. We were all excited to get him as it seemed a gaping hole the year prior was the net, but patching that just exposed other issues.
I'm not saying he wasn't good, simply that I don't think he was the top-tier goalie that he eventually became at the time. He was probably similar to Lehtonen in terms of calibre at the time. And while Dallas' GM also said he was excited to have acquired a proven elite goalie, it's clear there's a gap between him and the perennial Vezina contenders.

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01-04-2013, 10:32 AM
  #842
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Vokoun has no desire to be a #1 goalie, he wanted a multi year deal with less stress and a chance to win...he never would have gone to Toronto. Pittsburgh is where he wanted to go and that's where he went...it's the perfect situation for him.

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01-04-2013, 10:42 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Think this just highlights how out to lunch Brian Burke was (eg., just reinforces the belief that his one consistant weakness as a GM is the area of goaltending).
It also comes down to who Vokoun wanted to go to, he had a limited NTC I believe, right? Would have been nice to grab him, he fits into what the Leafs were looking for, short term high level goaltender that can give guys like Reimer and Scrivens more time to develop. I don't think Vokoun had any intentions going to a bottom feeder like the Leafs though.

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01-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #844
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Vokoun has no desire to be a #1 goalie, he wanted a multi year deal with less stress and a chance to win...he never would have gone to Toronto. Pittsburgh is where he wanted to go and that's where he went...it's the perfect situation for him.
Different environment with respect to goalies in Toronto. Unless you're horrifically bad, they worship their goalies there.

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01-04-2013, 10:52 AM
  #845
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Different environment with respect to goalies in Toronto. Unless you're horrifically bad, they worship their goalies there.
While that could be true, he's still going to be in front of the media everyday in Toronto...as a backup in Pittsburgh he probably won't see a lot of attention.

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01-04-2013, 02:54 PM
  #846
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not saying he wasn't good, simply that I don't think he was the top-tier goalie that he eventually became at the time. He was probably similar to Lehtonen in terms of calibre at the time. And while Dallas' GM also said he was excited to have acquired a proven elite goalie, it's clear there's a gap between him and the perennial Vezina contenders.
Not sure what to tell you, sounds like you're either very young or new to the sport. Not a place to debate between Vokoun, Luongo, and Lehtonen, so I won't continue, but they're not good comparisons from contractual to performance. Especially Lehtonen.

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01-04-2013, 03:15 PM
  #847
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Not sure what to tell you, sounds like you're either very young or new to the sport. Not a place to debate between Vokoun, Luongo, and Lehtonen, so I won't continue, but they're not good comparisons from contractual to performance. Especially Lehtonen.
Currently the biggest difference between the two (Luongo & Vokoun) is the later is dealing with groin injury issues - which is an important factor considering Vokoun isn't on the right side of 30 years old anymore.

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01-04-2013, 11:04 PM
  #848
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Vokoun was considered a top goalie with Nashville

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01-04-2013, 11:53 PM
  #849
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I think its obvious that Gillis is looking for a big young center to fill the in the third line C, we are already loaded with wingers on the team and the pipeline. There was also confirmation that Gillis was after Bjugstad so this should tell you what type of player he is looking for as a centerpiece. I see Gillis targeting these players:

Drew Shore
Nick Bjugstad
Ryan Johansen
Sean Coutourier
Joe Colborne

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01-04-2013, 11:55 PM
  #850
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
Vokoun was considered a top goalie with Nashville
Yup, he had a .920 and .919 save percentages in his final two seasons(over 100 games played).

Including 64 wins, stellar stats all around.

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