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Old
01-02-2013, 08:32 AM
  #651
Freudian
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I think generally Sherman is good at contracts but he has a few misses. Signing Jones to a one year deal only to be forced to pay him $4/year next summer after a disappointing season is one.

O'Brien is ok, but why give him a three year deal? Two would have been plenty.

Now we have a logjam that will result in either kids not being given a proper chance or having to try to trade on a market that's going to be very tight with cap going down.

I know Avs wanted maximum flexibility for this summer but I'm not sure that strategy has been paying off. We had too many players to sign and it seemed the UFAs had little too much leverage.

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01-02-2013, 09:42 AM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
At this point I wouldn't even consider this an if, I'd say its a gurantee. The way Barrie has been playing all year, and the way Elliott has really started to improve over the last couple of weeks, one if not both should make opening roster IMO.

If we see just Barrie make the opening roster, then I think we'll see Obyrne(Sadly) get shipped out along with maybe a 3rd for another 1st? We don't need any forward help for now at least, and another 1st in a draft looking this deep would be excellent.

Im most excited too see what the teams like Boston, Minnesota, Vancouver all do if the Cap for next year is indeed lowered to say 60M. They would have to shed a lot of salary, and could potentially lose some very good players to free agency or trade. Snagging an Edler or Horton or even a Timmonen would do wonders for this team. And we should have the cap space to pitch decent offers too a good player in the offseason. At a 60M Cap, and assuming we sign Oreilly to say 4M and let Kobasew walk, we would have approx. 53M spent, so roughly 7M left over. A lot of fun could be had with that 7M.



As you said, I highly doubt we buy out anyone, but if we did, my 2 guesses would be Hejda or Kobasew. Hejda certainly hasn't played terrible, but I don't think he quite played like we had hoped, and he might be overpaid by 1-1.25M, which isn't a huge deal, but its something. Kobasew just hasn't been good at all, but he only has 1 year left anyway so I highly doubt he get bought out. After that we really don't have a bad contract in the organization.

People said for so long that the Avs were playing with an eternal budget, and that management should be going out and spending money, now everyone should start to realize just how smart Greg from accounting has been. Were going to be one of very few teams that will be under the cap and actually have room to spend with a 60M cap hit, compared to the last lockout when we were ripped apart by it.
Don't won't that neanderthal anywhere near the Avs, plus he got his brains scrambled a couple of times too much.

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01-02-2013, 05:08 PM
  #653
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In my opinion, Hejda, Zanon, Hunwick are all wasted roster spots. Retain, Johnson, Wilson, O'Brien & O'Byrne, and get two new defensemen (one needs to be a true number one D-man), and one of which should be either Barrie or Elliott.

Heck, we'd even get 7.1 million back in cap space from shedding those under achievers.

We are "decent" in attack, "outstanding" in goal, "woefully poor" in defense. In fact, I'd like to challenge anyone to advise which defensive group as it stands right now, is worse than ours?

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01-02-2013, 05:39 PM
  #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
In my opinion, Hejda, Zanon, Hunwick are all wasted roster spots. Retain, Johnson, Wilson, O'Brien & O'Byrne, and get two new defensemen (one needs to be a true number one D-man), and one of which should be either Barrie or Elliott.

Heck, we'd even get 7.1 million back in cap space from shedding those under achievers.

We are "decent" in attack, "outstanding" in goal, "woefully poor" in defense. In fact, I'd like to challenge anyone to advise which defensive group as it stands right now, is worse than ours?
You're in luck! There is a poll series currently which explores this very subject: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1314607

Hejda isn't as bad as you make him out to be, and going by the top sixes there I'd say we're on par with if not better than Columbus, the Islanders, Tampa, Toronto and maybe Detroit, though they certainly have better individuals than we do and I'd expect Smith to be decent when he plays.

Our defense is very poor all things considered, but it's no worse than 25th in the league, I think.

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Old
01-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think generally Sherman is good at contracts but he has a few misses. Signing Jones to a one year deal only to be forced to pay him $4/year next summer after a disappointing season is one.

O'Brien is ok, but why give him a three year deal? Two would have been plenty.


Now we have a logjam that will result in either kids not being given a proper chance or having to try to trade on a market that's going to be very tight with cap going down.

I know Avs wanted maximum flexibility for this summer but I'm not sure that strategy has been paying off. We had too many players to sign and it seemed the UFAs had little too much leverage.
To maximize their trade value?

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Old
01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
In my opinion, Hejda, Zanon, Hunwick are all wasted roster spots. Retain, Johnson, Wilson, O'Brien & O'Byrne, and get two new defensemen (one needs to be a true number one D-man), and one of which should be either Barrie or Elliott.

Heck, we'd even get 7.1 million back in cap space from shedding those under achievers.

We are "decent" in attack, "outstanding" in goal, "woefully poor" in defense. In fact, I'd like to challenge anyone to advise which defensive group as it stands right now, is worse than ours?
Hejda's good and I think Zanon will be fine for us as long as Sacco plays him within his limits. Agree that it is probably bottom 3 in the NHL.

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01-03-2013, 10:17 AM
  #657
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I don't mind O'Brien being around for the next couple years, as long as he's on the third pairing. Against lower competition he fits in well, and does a little bit of everything. Also seems really well liked on the team.

Hunwick also isn't a big deal because he seems okay with knowing he is the 7th guy and always works hard to get back into the lineup, and comes ready to play once he is back in. He is a pretty ideal press box player. Also probably very little trade value, so I'm sure he is staying.

Those two, along with Johnson, Barrie, and Elliott seem like the only safe ones to me.

Wilson on a 3-year deal, not a huge deal because I'm sure he has decent trade value if he doesn't improve at all. Just trade him out of the conference so he isn't running the Avs players. He's such a wildcard.

I wonder what the odds are that Hejda is bought out. If Zanon provides the same impact, then I could see it really happening. Hopefully Sacco isn't still obsessed with putting Hejda-O'Byrne together. It's like those two use ringette sticks, and its even worse when they're together.

Long story short, I'd be satisfied if Hejda, potentially Zanon, and possibly Wilson weren't in the long term plans, with O'Byrne re-signing, Leaving for summer and heading into next season:
____-EJ
____-Barrie/Elliott
O'Brien-O'Byrne
Hunwick

Most likely keep one of Hejda/Zanon/Wilson to fill in on that 2nd pairing and be a solid defense first guy for a more offensive oriented player. Still not the best group, but some development in the young guys (not asking too much), and a signing or two and it would look greatly improved.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:44 PM
  #658
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Alex Edler playing next to EJ and we'd have ourselves a fine Defense IMO. Hejda isn't as bad as some want to believe he is. He's a #4/5 on most teams, on the Avs he's a #3 right now, so he's playing 1 spot over his limits. If we had this Defense next year we'd be right in the middle of the pack, possibly higher if Barrie plays in the NHL like he has been in the AHL:

Edler - EJ
Hejda - Barrie
Zanon - Obrien
Hunwick

Obviously if we could move Obrien and resign Obyrne that would be better, but I don't see it happening so that's probably what we'll have(Except Edler).

But signing Edler would help a lot.

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Old
01-03-2013, 12:52 PM
  #659
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Edler would be a nice addition, but an expensive one at that. If he leaves Vancouver it will be for 5+ mil. Just not sure Sherman will want to pony up that kind of cash depending how the CBA turns out.

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Old
01-03-2013, 03:02 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
In my opinion, Hejda, Zanon, Hunwick are all wasted roster spots. Retain, Johnson, Wilson, O'Brien & O'Byrne, and get two new defensemen (one needs to be a true number one D-man), and one of which should be either Barrie or Elliott.

Heck, we'd even get 7.1 million back in cap space from shedding those under achievers.

We are "decent" in attack, "outstanding" in goal, "woefully poor" in defense. In fact, I'd like to challenge anyone to advise which defensive group as it stands right now, is worse than ours?
Yes, the Avs defense is bottom 6 in the NHL. That said, I don't know how anyone can complain too much about the type of defense Hejda played in the 2nd half of the season. He was pretty good.

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Old
01-03-2013, 03:43 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Yes, the Avs defense is bottom 6 in the NHL. That said, I don't know how anyone can complain too much about the type of defense Hejda played in the 2nd half of the season. He was pretty good.
Agreed, plus he's the 2nd best d-man on the team.

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01-03-2013, 04:31 PM
  #662
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Agreed, plus he's the 2nd best d-man on the team.
Unfortunately it doesn't mean he's a number 2 defender. For the record I agree that Hejda was our 2nd best defender in the 2nd half of the season. Before EJ went down with his injury O'Brien was actually our best defender and I believe helped EJ develop that extra bit of physicality we saw when EJ came back from his injury. O'Brien however is best on the 3rd pairing in a line-up something like this:

?-Johnson
Barrie/Elliot-Hejda
O'Bryne-O'Brien
extras: Zanon, Hunwick

I don't know if I want any of our current dmen playing with Johnson on the top line. Maybe Barrie? However I'm not convinced that any of our current dmen can play in that number 2 spot unless O'Brien stays out of the box and doesn't rush or Barrie can become Dan Boyle quickly.

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01-03-2013, 05:23 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Edler would be a nice addition, but an expensive one at that. If he leaves Vancouver it will be for 5+ mil. Just not sure Sherman will want to pony up that kind of cash depending how the CBA turns out.
I used to really think a lot of Edler, but he's just too prone to mistakes for my liking. A good player, but one who just makes too many mistakes for his salary. Would add a nice physical edge to the defense, though.

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Old
01-04-2013, 05:48 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't mean he's a number 2 defender. For the record I agree that Hejda was our 2nd best defender in the 2nd half of the season. Before EJ went down with his injury O'Brien was actually our best defender and I believe helped EJ develop that extra bit of physicality we saw when EJ came back from his injury. O'Brien however is best on the 3rd pairing in a line-up something like this:

?-Johnson
Barrie/Elliot-Hejda
O'Bryne-O'Brien
extras: Zanon, Hunwick

I don't know if I want any of our current dmen playing with Johnson on the top line. Maybe Barrie? However I'm not convinced that any of our current dmen can play in that number 2 spot unless O'Brien stays out of the box and doesn't rush or Barrie can become Dan Boyle quickly.
I never said he is, but the fact remains that he's far better than any of our NHL d-men with the exception of EJ, getting rid of him would be borderline idiotic.

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01-04-2013, 06:50 AM
  #665
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I never said he is, but the fact remains that he's far better than any of our NHL d-men with the exception of EJ, getting rid of him would be borderline idiotic.
If he was our 2nd best defender, it wasn't by much. Wilson outplayed Hejda for stretches of the season and O'Byrne was the more consistent defender. I'd prefer both of them over Hejda to be honest.

What I liked was the occasional hip check he threw in the 2nd half last year and how he got comfortable playing with O'Byrne (whom had to cover Hejda way too much for my liking). His goals were a bonus I don't see him replicating, he's a point and shoot defender with about as much accuracy as an airsoft gun, every so often one of them hits the mark.

Overall I just don't see what he brings we don't already have, at a salary I would prefer to put towards a real #2 (Hejda + 2-3mil in space = ???) if we had the opportunity.

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01-04-2013, 08:21 AM
  #666
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Wilson outplayed Hejda for a couple of weeks and then he got injured and never looked the same.

O'Byrne was consistent but he was never anything more than decent.

Hejda is probably still better than either of them, though that's not saying much.

The D will be the Avalanche's downfall if there is a season this year.

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01-04-2013, 09:28 AM
  #667
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Apart from the first two months Hejda played well. He and EJ didn't work out at all. It was like both of them were trying to do it all by themselves and as a result they didn't accomplish much since they tried to do too much and wouldn't trust each other.

Wilson was very inconsistent, as always. When good, he is excellent. When bad, he's terrible.

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01-04-2013, 09:57 AM
  #668
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The thing about our D-men is, when they each play within their means, they're great. O'Byrne is the prime example of this. If Hejda, O'Brien, Wilson and Zanon play the way he does, we'd have a pretty solid back end.

The problem is, Sacco's system relies too much on defensemen joining the rush, pinching, etc and the only guy who can do that well is EJ, and Wilson has his moments.

If the team played more of a D-first system as a whole, they'd be much more successful, there wouldn't be as many odd-man rushes and both goalies would have an easier time with the majority of the shots being kept to the perimeter.

But for some reason the Avs are dead set of keeping Sacco at the helm, and even his eventual successor Quinn isn't a very defense-oriented kind of coach from what I've seen. So I doubt we'll ever see a solid defensive system in place for some time.

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01-04-2013, 10:07 AM
  #669
Drizzt1
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The thing about our D-men is, when they each play within their means, they're great. O'Byrne is the prime example of this. If Hejda, O'Brien, Wilson and Zanon play the way he does, we'd have a pretty solid back end.

The problem is, Sacco's system relies too much on defensemen joining the rush, pinching, etc and the only guy who can do that well is EJ, and Wilson has his moments.

If the team played more of a D-first system as a whole, they'd be much more successful, there wouldn't be as many odd-man rushes and both goalies would have an easier time with the majority of the shots being kept to the perimeter.

But for some reason the Avs are dead set of keeping Sacco at the helm, and even his eventual successor Quinn isn't a very defense-oriented kind of coach from what I've seen. So I doubt we'll ever see a solid defensive system in place for some time.
We don't have the raw talent laden superstar power in our offence, for our defense to be able to play "defense first". Therefore, our defensemen HAVE to be some what offensive, or our production would dramatically dry up.

For those who suggested Islanders defense is worse than ours, I'd really have to question that statement. Some also stated The Jackets......I'd take Wisniewski, Tyutin, Johnson, Aucoin, Lebda, Martinek and others WAY before I'd select anyone apart from say Johnson and to a much lesser degree Wilson.

Seriously, Hunwick, O'Byrne, Zanon, O'Brien & Hejda aren't exactly world beaters, nor would they send fear through opposition teams, who I think would look forward to playing against a group like ours.

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01-04-2013, 10:32 AM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
We don't have the raw talent laden superstar power in our offence, for our defense to be able to play "defense first". Therefore, our defensemen HAVE to be some what offensive, or our production would dramatically dry up.

For those who suggested Islanders defense is worse than ours, I'd really have to question that statement. Some also stated The Jackets......I'd take Wisniewski, Tyutin, Johnson, Aucoin, Lebda, Martinek and others WAY before I'd select anyone apart from say Johnson and to a much lesser degree Wilson.

Seriously, Hunwick, O'Byrne, Zanon, O'Brien & Hejda aren't exactly world beaters, nor would they send fear through opposition teams, who I think would look forward to playing against a group like ours.
I honestly feel that our defense is under-rated by most people in this forum. I'm not saying we have a top flight defense but we do have a tolerable defense.

EJ has shown signs of progression towards a top flight dman.

Hejda is a 2nd pairing level guy

O'Bryne and O'Brien aren't world beaters but they quietly do a solid job most of the time and are decent 3rd pairing guys

Hunwick is hit or miss

Wilson is a wild card, some nights he looks amazing some not so much, if he can find consistency he could easily play 2nd or 3rd pairing.

Zanon I'm not that familiar with but I've heard he is kind of like O'Brien and O'Bryne.

We also have Barrie and Elliott. I think Barrie is going to be a stud kind of a Dan Boyle or Duncan Keith light version. Barrie played very well last season. Elliott if he can get a bit stronger could become a high end offensive dman. Not to mention Seimens who really could be the next Adam Foote.

I will agree we could use a top end dman, but those don't exactly grow on trees, and teams don't exactly just part ways with them. Sometimes you just got to make do until you can get one, which is what we are doing and its not as bad as people are making it out to be.

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01-04-2013, 11:22 AM
  #671
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Lebda?

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Old
01-04-2013, 03:47 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
I honestly feel that our defense is under-rated by most people in this forum. I'm not saying we have a top flight defense but we do have a tolerable defense.

EJ has shown signs of progression towards a top flight dman.

Hejda is a 2nd pairing level guy

O'Bryne and O'Brien aren't world beaters but they quietly do a solid job most of the time and are decent 3rd pairing guys

Hunwick is hit or miss

Wilson is a wild card, some nights he looks amazing some not so much, if he can find consistency he could easily play 2nd or 3rd pairing.

Zanon I'm not that familiar with but I've heard he is kind of like O'Brien and O'Bryne.

We also have Barrie and Elliott. I think Barrie is going to be a stud kind of a Dan Boyle or Duncan Keith light version. Barrie played very well last season. Elliott if he can get a bit stronger could become a high end offensive dman. Not to mention Seimens who really could be the next Adam Foote.

I will agree we could use a top end dman, but those don't exactly grow on trees, and teams don't exactly just part ways with them. Sometimes you just got to make do until you can get one, which is what we are doing and its not as bad as people are making it out to be.
Good post,
What i can read from this is that it's mostly about icetime . When you give a player to much icetime that he can actually handle you will see his flaws , but if you play the guy within his limits he will be effective on the ice. That's a little bit like in Baseball when they bring a pitcher saying that this guy will give you quality innings and will give you a lot of innings. In Hockey you need those guys who will give you a lot of minutes on the ice . Sadly, like you said, those players dont grow on Trees. The best solution would be to develop one ( easier said than done , i know ).

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01-04-2013, 04:29 PM
  #673
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I agree that our defensive stocks seem at least on the upside with Siemens (who some say has regressed), Barrie, and Elliott (who some people also have suggested may have regressed).

I'm actually very disappointed that Rutkowski was not given an opportunity at least in Lake Erie. I thought he'd be pretty good, but admittedly, that was only going off reading reviews and looking at stats.

Gaunce was, is, and is going to be one of my favorite players. I really hope the guy does well and take that next step, but he, along with Elliott seems to have production problems in Lake Erie at the moment, and he's meant to be a puck moving defensemen, with a gritty side to him.

My main issue with the squad (defense), is the length of contracts. I personally think we have little options with Hejda. He's by no means getting better, but he sure as hell getting older, and being 37 at contracts end, and earning 3.25 million throughout is horrible. Plain horrible. No-one would take that on for what value he adds to the team.

I'm mortified we let Liles go for what we did. I don't buy this BS that he just "wouldn't have signed" at contracts end. Guess what, he's exactly the defensemen our team needed. He almost got 50 points that last season with us. He played PP time. He quarter backed the rush quite often.

I don't get it.

What do we do going forward though? It's going to take a lot of time, patience and persaverence just to "wait" for our young guys to develop. If you look team by team, other teams have potential rookies also set to make a name for themselves (Schultz for example), so who's to say our young guys are going to be better than other teams? We do need to be better than other teams, because we need to improve to contend. Pinning all our hopes on Siemens, Barrie and/or Elliott is a concern to me. Also, "waiting" for some magical button to make moves is another move that worries me.

At this point in our proud clubs point in time, what this playing group needs is certainty.

Our defense is, and has been our weakness for years. We've lost so many good players. Leopold could still be here. Boychuk could still be here. Liles could still be here. Shattenkirk could still be here. In my opinion, I thought having Cohen on our squad with guys like Yip & Shattenkirk could be beneficial. I loved what I saw with Cohen. The kid wouldn't even take any guff from Iginla !!

Anyways, I'm a negative nancy to be honest, so I hope I am proven wrong. I hope our defense is, and will become the envy of the league - because as of now, I think it's a farce, and to be honest, think it is currently the worst NHL quality defense in the league, on the back of people "hoping" our rookies can stand up, and dominate the game in years to come. People are suggesting Siemens could be Foote, and Barrie could be Boyle or Keith. Yeah, I'm negative, but that's the complete opposite. It's the same as Lacroix suggesting Anderson was the next Roy, Duchene the next Forsberg, and Stazz the next Sakic. I'm happy with people arguing my negative stand point, but these past players are generational players, of which, we have none at the moment.

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01-04-2013, 05:17 PM
  #674
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I think one of the misinterpretations that people have are that the Avs are building a team similar to the one that they had in the 90's-early 2000's. I don't think that they are building the same team, they don't have the same high end offensive talent. Instead, I think the Avs are building a much more defensively oriented, well-rounded team. I think they will actually end up resembling the Dallas Stars of that era more than the Avalanche team we knew.

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01-04-2013, 08:57 PM
  #675
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I agree that our defensive stocks seem at least on the upside with Siemens (who some say has regressed), Barrie, and Elliott (who some people also have suggested may have regressed).

I'm actually very disappointed that Rutkowski was not given an opportunity at least in Lake Erie. I thought he'd be pretty good, but admittedly, that was only going off reading reviews and looking at stats.

Gaunce was, is, and is going to be one of my favorite players. I really hope the guy does well and take that next step, but he, along with Elliott seems to have production problems in Lake Erie at the moment, and he's meant to be a puck moving defensemen, with a gritty side to him.

My main issue with the squad (defense), is the length of contracts. I personally think we have little options with Hejda. He's by no means getting better, but he sure as hell getting older, and being 37 at contracts end, and earning 3.25 million throughout is horrible. Plain horrible. No-one would take that on for what value he adds to the team.

I'm mortified we let Liles go for what we did. I don't buy this BS that he just "wouldn't have signed" at contracts end. Guess what, he's exactly the defensemen our team needed. He almost got 50 points that last season with us. He played PP time. He quarter backed the rush quite often.

I don't get it.

What do we do going forward though? It's going to take a lot of time, patience and persaverence just to "wait" for our young guys to develop. If you look team by team, other teams have potential rookies also set to make a name for themselves (Schultz for example), so who's to say our young guys are going to be better than other teams? We do need to be better than other teams, because we need to improve to contend. Pinning all our hopes on Siemens, Barrie and/or Elliott is a concern to me. Also, "waiting" for some magical button to make moves is another move that worries me.

At this point in our proud clubs point in time, what this playing group needs is certainty.

Our defense is, and has been our weakness for years. We've lost so many good players. Leopold could still be here. Boychuk could still be here. Liles could still be here. Shattenkirk could still be here. In my opinion, I thought having Cohen on our squad with guys like Yip & Shattenkirk could be beneficial. I loved what I saw with Cohen. The kid wouldn't even take any guff from Iginla !!

Anyways, I'm a negative nancy to be honest, so I hope I am proven wrong. I hope our defense is, and will become the envy of the league - because as of now, I think it's a farce, and to be honest, think it is currently the worst NHL quality defense in the league, on the back of people "hoping" our rookies can stand up, and dominate the game in years to come. People are suggesting Siemens could be Foote, and Barrie could be Boyle or Keith. Yeah, I'm negative, but that's the complete opposite. It's the same as Lacroix suggesting Anderson was the next Roy, Duchene the next Forsberg, and Stazz the next Sakic. I'm happy with people arguing my negative stand point, but these past players are generational players, of which, we have none at the moment.
You (rightfully) bemoan the state of the Avs' defensive corps. but then pine for the days of Boychuk, Leopold and Cohen? Good lord.

Huis Clos* is offline  
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