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Old
01-03-2013, 10:40 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
One of those players does not belong in that lineup! Can anyone tell who it is?
I am getting tired of seeing people put Hoffman on this team. IMO he is not an NHL player, def not top 6! Average AHL player, and a shrimp. Maybe 4th liner, but I would prefer someone with size...Grant or DZ.

Sorry for sticking my nose in as I usually just read and stay quiet....but this burns me!
Don't hassle the Hoff

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01-03-2013, 10:48 AM
  #177
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Don't hassle the Hoff


Sorry, emotional response!

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01-03-2013, 11:32 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
One of those players does not belong in that lineup! Can anyone tell who it is?
I am getting tired of seeing people put Hoffman on this team. IMO he is not an NHL player, def not top 6! Average AHL player, and a shrimp. Maybe 4th liner, but I would prefer someone with size...Grant or DZ.

Sorry for sticking my nose in as I usually just read and stay quiet....but this burns me!
Why not? He's got a fantastic shot and good hands. Skating is good enough and he seems to have a nice feel for the offensive side of the game. Playing with Spezza might be a nice fit. Personally (and I said this when we drafted him), I think his shot is a plus skill at the NHL level.

If (and I did say it was a big IF) it works, you've created 3 potent lines that could serve as a nice strength to the roster. He also has nice chemestry with Silf, which is why I thought of him specifically for that spot over guys like Condra and Greening.

Also, he's 6' so not exactly a shrimp either.

You want someone with size, fine. But the NHL is a skill game now more than a size game. Guys like Grant are useful (and I like Grant), but we already have a bunch of them. I want 3 skilled lines that can play good two way hockey and are a consistent threat to score.

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01-03-2013, 11:51 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by OgieO View Post
Why not? He's got a fantastic shot and good hands. Skating is good enough and he seems to have a nice feel for the offensive side of the game. Playing with Spezza might be a nice fit. Personally (and I said this when we drafted him), I think his shot is a plus skill at the NHL level.

If (and I did say it was a big IF) it works, you've created 3 potent lines that could serve as a nice strength to the roster. He also has nice chemestry with Silf, which is why I thought of him specifically for that spot over guys like Condra and Greening.

Also, he's 6' so not exactly a shrimp either.

You want someone with size, fine. But the NHL is a skill game now more than a size game. Guys like Grant are useful (and I like Grant), but we already have a bunch of them. I want 3 skilled lines that can play good two way hockey and are a consistent threat to score.

Why not? 49 pts in the AHL in his second year, and is on exactly the same pace in his third full year; playing with better players. If his shot and skill are NHL level, he has not shown it yet in the AHL. Yes he had more skill than Condra and Greening, but they are not top 6 players either. Greening has more size and speed.
AHL dot com has Hoff at 5'11 176. By NHL standards that is very small!
I understand your concept of three skilled lines, I just think Hoff is not good enough. Hell, Daugavins is bigger and scored at the same level Hoff did in the AHL. Regin scored at Hoffs pace in his first year in the AHL! He is bigger too.
I also see several guys who will surpass Hoffman as early as next year or the year after......Zibby, Stone, Prince, possibly Da Costa, Pageau, Noesen, Puempel.
Presently on the Sens top 6 list, I have Hoff 9th at best.
Spezza, Alfy, Turris, Michalek, Silfverberg, Latendresse, Regin, Greening........Hoffman/Da Costa.

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01-03-2013, 12:28 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
Why not? 49 pts in the AHL in his second year, and is on exactly the same pace in his third full year; playing with better players. If his shot and skill are NHL level, he has not shown it yet in the AHL. Yes he had more skill than Condra and Greening, but they are not top 6 players either. Greening has more size and speed.
AHL dot com has Hoff at 5'11 176. By NHL standards that is very small!
I understand your concept of three skilled lines, I just think Hoff is not good enough. Hell, Daugavins is bigger and scored at the same level Hoff did in the AHL. Regin scored at Hoffs pace in his first year in the AHL! He is bigger too.
I also see several guys who will surpass Hoffman as early as next year or the year after......Zibby, Stone, Prince, possibly Da Costa, Pageau, Noesen, Puempel.
Presently on the Sens top 6 list, I have Hoff 9th at best.
Spezza, Alfy, Turris, Michalek, Silfverberg, Latendresse, Regin, Greening........Hoffman/Da Costa.
It's not just about size... and Hoffman is taller than Daugavins, I don't care what they're listed at.

I could see Hoff being a bottom 6 player. 3rd/4th line LW.

BUt for this year for sure keep him in the AHL. Keep giving him top 6 minutes in the AHL to develop his offense until he gets eligible for waivers, and then test him out where ever in the NHL. He could possibly fit anywhere up and down the lineup.

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01-03-2013, 12:46 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Wait... I'm saying I want Redden as an insurance 6/7 depth guy. A guy who, if something happens and our young guys don't produce, we have an experienced vet who can still play a bottom pairing role if asked. Insurance in case of an injury. You know... defensive depth.

... and I'm wrong to think that he would make good DEPTH insurance (read: bottom pairing guy who can be the 7th pressbox guy or play 40 games a year if our kids don't show up) because... we have 4 guys already to play on our 1st and 2nd pairings?

Isn't that my point? That after Karlsson/Methot/Gonchar/Phillips, our defence is phenomenally unproven at the NH level? That it would be great to have some depth for our 5/6/7/8 spots? Because injuries happen, ESPECIALLY in a condensed season with no real training camp?

Maybe it's because I'm hungover as **** right now, but I don't follow why "I'm so wrong".
The post I quoted implied Wiercioch was gonna play top 4. Then you said Redden would be a good insurance plan. Well, that's what I mean, if you think Redden is top 4 insurance that is so wrong.

If Wiercioch plays top 4, that means one of Gonchar, Methot or Phillips will not. So that means one guy can be the insurance for top 4.


Also, Benoit is much better than Redden in a 6/7 role.

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01-03-2013, 12:48 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
It's not just about size... and Hoffman is taller than Daugavins, I don't care what they're listed at.

I could see Hoff being a bottom 6 player. 3rd/4th line LW.

BUt for this year for sure keep him in the AHL. Keep giving him top 6 minutes in the AHL to develop his offense until he gets eligible for waivers, and then test him out where ever in the NHL. He could possibly fit anywhere up and down the lineup.

I can't disagree with that. Although, Daugavins is a 4th liner at best. How does that make Hoff a top 6 guy? If you are that small and playing in the top 6, you better score like a son of a B#$*h. I don't see that in Hoffman.
Sure Hoff may be able to replace Daugavins or Condra. The problem I have is people constantly putting him in a top 6 spot. Maybe he can do that on a weak team, but I have higher expectations for the Sens!
I would love for him to take that next step this year or next and prove me wrong. I just don't see it happening.

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01-03-2013, 12:49 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Also, Benoit is much better than Redden in a 6/7 role.
If you're not taking salary into the question, this is definitely wrong. And I hate Redden with a passion.

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01-03-2013, 12:53 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Look, the issue between you and I in this argument is that we have, at the very root of this debate, much different philosophies on how to properly develop prospects. From my point of view on "how goalie prospects should be handled" (give them as many starts as possible for as long as possible), the Bishop trade was invaluable. From your point of view (a half-season's worth of impressive starts = NHL ready), the Bishop trade was a bad one.

The sooner we both realize that our differences here stem from you just not knowing how to properly develop prospects, the better.


Carey Price.

Lehner did what Price did. Price stepped into the NHL, but Lehner did not. Why not?

Lehner --> proven domination in AHL: Check
Lehner --> good NHL play: Check
Lehner --> mental makeup and physical skills to play in the NHL: Check


He's ready.

The organization has a current middle-aged #1 and young NHL ready but still unproven #1 who deserves a shot.

Hello people, you don't give up a good pick for another goalie.



Would playing more games in the AHL hamper his development? Probably not. But stepping into the NHL (where he has a good chance of stealing the #1 spot and playing a lot) will not hurt him either.

Carey Price is my comparable.

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01-03-2013, 12:57 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
I can't disagree with that. Although, Daugavins is a 4th liner at best. How does that make Hoff a top 6 guy? If you are that small and playing in the top 6, you better score like a son of a B#$*h. I don't see that in Hoffman.
Sure Hoff may be able to replace Daugavins or Condra. The problem I have is people constantly putting him in a top 6 spot. Maybe he can do that on a weak team, but I have higher expectations for the Sens!
I would love for him to take that next step this year or next and prove me wrong. I just don't see it happening.
Hoff is the type I think who will need to work his way up from bottom 6 to top 6. Could be wrong though

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Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
If you're not taking salary into the question, this is definitely wrong. And I hate Redden with a passion.
Benoit is much better than Redden at this point in time. Did you see Redden at all in his last NHL season? He's worse than that now. Hard to imagine.

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01-03-2013, 01:01 PM
  #186
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[QUOTE=MandyAlwaysKnows;57067283]Hoff is the type I think who will need to work his way up from bottom 6 to top 6. Could be wrong though



So you do not disagree with me. This thread is about our lineup if the NHL starts this month. Hoffman should not be slotted in our top 6 this year!

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01-03-2013, 01:13 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Hoff is the type I think who will need to work his way up from bottom 6 to top 6. Could be wrong though
Ironically, I see it the opposite. I think he's a guy that MIGHT be able to find a spot in our top 6 sooner and then find his way off our team before long. I think he's either on a scoring line or not that useful. The fact that he has chemestry with Silf and Spezza can carry lesser players is why I thought it was worth a shot to see if it work (for the benefit of three more balanced lines). Once our younger prospects get some seasoning (Stone, Zib, Prince, etc) they'd most likely bump him off the roster. I just don't want to rush any of those players (but I think the Sens will).

I think he's a better Bobby Butler. Butler was on pace for 20+ goals on Spezza's line. I think Hoffman would be more productive in that role as a place holder for one of the younger players.

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01-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by OgieO View Post
Ironically, I see it the opposite. I think he's a guy that MIGHT be able to find a spot in our top 6 sooner and then find his way off our team before long. I think he's either on a scoring line or not that useful. The fact that he has chemestry with Silf and Spezza can carry lesser players is why I thought it was worth a shot to see if it work (for the benefit of three more balanced lines). Once our younger prospects get some seasoning (Stone, Zib, Prince, etc) they'd most likely bump him off the roster. I just don't want to rush any of those players (but I think the Sens will).

I think he's a better Bobby Butler. Butler was on pace for 20+ goals on Spezza's line. I think Hoffman would be more productive in that role as a place holder for one of the younger players.

It is a possibility, but I still see Latendresse and Regin ahead of him. So if one or both of them don't cut it, and/or injuries, maybe. Definitely not to start. If he does get in the top 6, it would be a temporary fill in until we find/develop a better replacement. Butler was not close to good enough, and he has proven to be a better goal scorer in the AHL; even in his first year. Hoffman is basically a 20 goal scorer in the AHL. If you expect Spezza and Silfverberg to get more out of him, I see that as a problem.

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01-03-2013, 01:27 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
So you do not disagree with me. This thread is about our lineup if the NHL starts this month. Hoffman should not be slotted in our top 6 this year!
yeah agree with that

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Originally Posted by OgieO View Post
Ironically, I see it the opposite. I think he's a guy that MIGHT be able to find a spot in our top 6 sooner and then find his way off our team before long. I think he's either on a scoring line or not that useful. The fact that he has chemestry with Silf and Spezza can carry lesser players is why I thought it was worth a shot to see if it work (for the benefit of three more balanced lines). Once our younger prospects get some seasoning (Stone, Zib, Prince, etc) they'd most likely bump him off the roster. I just don't want to rush any of those players (but I think the Sens will).

I think he's a better Bobby Butler. Butler was on pace for 20+ goals on Spezza's line. I think Hoffman would be more productive in that role as a place holder for one of the younger players.
He's not Chris Neil obviously (so maybe the Expert will disagree)

But am I the only one who sees similarities to Vermette? Maybe not quite as good defensively, but all right to play the wing in the bottom six.

He's not small... NHL size, skill and not completely clueless out there. He just might be the guy who can complement 2 physical linemates like like Neil... You know, a guy to handle to the puck and hang on to it a little longer than the grinders are capable of.

He's not 100% one dimensional like Butler, therefore I don't think he's top 6 or bust.

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01-04-2013, 04:52 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post


Carey Price.

Lehner did what Price did. Price stepped into the NHL, but Lehner did not. Why not?

Lehner --> proven domination in AHL: Check
Lehner --> good NHL play: Check
Lehner --> mental makeup and physical skills to play in the NHL: Check


He's ready.

The organization has a current middle-aged #1 and young NHL ready but still unproven #1 who deserves a shot.

Hello people, you don't give up a good pick for another goalie.



Would playing more games in the AHL hamper his development? Probably not. But stepping into the NHL (where he has a good chance of stealing the #1 spot and playing a lot) will not hurt him either.

Carey Price is my comparable.

I agree, Carey Price is a good comparable.

Carey Price was also pretty unimpressive in 2008-09 and '09-10... and it's doubly unimpressive that Halak was getting a larger share of the quality starts in their split workload.

"Sens-era" Craig Anderson >> 2008-2010 Carey Price. Montreal didn't have the luxury of having a goalie as reliable as Anderson has been with us back then. If the Habs had an obvious #1 goalie, I doubt Price would have seen the workload he did, but that's admittedly speculation on my part, and we won't really ever know one way or the other.

I have no doubt that Lehner can be a very good goalie in this league, and I do like the Price comparable, but I don't want to have to go through two developmental years with Lehner as our #1 goalie. And if he's not the #1 in Ottawa (or at the very least splitting games 50/50, which I don't think is good asset management with Anderson, as he's the kind of goalie who needs to start a lot of games to be effective, IMO), he needs to be starting games. Hence: the AHL.

Again: this is a fundamental difference in how you and I see the proper development of goalie prospects.

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01-04-2013, 05:46 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I agree, Carey Price is a good comparable.

Carey Price was also pretty unimpressive in 2008-09 and '09-10... and it's doubly unimpressive that Halak was getting a larger share of the quality starts in their split workload.

"Sens-era" Craig Anderson >> 2008-2010 Carey Price. Montreal didn't have the luxury of having a goalie as reliable as Anderson has been with us back then. If the Habs had an obvious #1 goalie, I doubt Price would have seen the workload he did, but that's admittedly speculation on my part, and we won't really ever know one way or the other.

I have no doubt that Lehner can be a very good goalie in this league, and I do like the Price comparable, but I don't want to have to go through two developmental years with Lehner as our #1 goalie. And if he's not the #1 in Ottawa (or at the very least splitting games 50/50, which I don't think is good asset management with Anderson, as he's the kind of goalie who needs to start a lot of games to be effective, IMO), he needs to be starting games. Hence: the AHL.

Again: this is a fundamental difference in how you and I see the proper development of goalie prospects.
Montreal had a solid goalie as well in Huet that year but WANTED Price to take over fully and dealt Huet to Washington in what was an absolutely unexpected move by the Habs. They wanted Price to carry his strong play and even though he was a ROOKIE!

Turned out pretty well for them. I'm wondering what might happen if the lock-out ends... Do we call up Lehner and split some games early on with Anderson? Is Bishop going to be called up instead even though Lehner deserves it more? If Lehner does really well do we deal Anderson? I don't think so but who knows what management thinks.

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01-04-2013, 05:49 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The organization has a current middle-aged #1 and young NHL ready but still unproven #1 who deserves a shot.
31 is NOT middle aged! Damn punk kids.


Also, Lehner had major attitude problems a couple years ago and is maturing now. Price has always been cool and calm under pressure.

Montreal used their history with Patrick Roy to try and repeat with Price. If Price crapped out, it would have ruined his development.

And remember what Murray said when Anderson cut himself, if something happened to Lehner they had no one else to turn to. We were in the playoff race. Anderson was gone for a month. A team just had to run Lehner and Ottawa would have been screwed. Auld was garbage. It was insurance and a good deal.

As others have mentioned, Bishop would command an equal return for what we gave up if not more. Problem being, no hockey.

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01-04-2013, 05:59 AM
  #193
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31 is NOT middle aged! Damn punk kids.


Also, Lehner had major attitude problems a couple years ago and is maturing now. Price has always been cool and calm under pressure.

Montreal used their history with Patrick Roy to try and repeat with Price. If Price crapped out, it would have ruined his development.

And remember what Murray said when Anderson cut himself, if something happened to Lehner they had no one else to turn to. We were in the playoff race. Anderson was gone for a month. A team just had to run Lehner and Ottawa would have been screwed. Auld was garbage. It was insurance and a good deal.

As others have mentioned, Bishop would command an equal return for what we gave up if not more. Problem being, no hockey.
Why would Bishop command more? Everyone doesn't love Sens players and prospects as much as this board does. In an albeit small bidding war in a situation of relative panic, the Sens gave up a 2nd rounder. Why would anyone do that now, as he's older, closer to UFA and while decent in the NHL, didn't really dramatically open eyes?

Also, where is that Murray quote from? Not a very nice thing to say about Alex Auld, a player you've invested a couple of million dollars in.

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01-04-2013, 06:32 AM
  #194
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It is a possibility, but I still see Latendresse and Regin ahead of him. So if one or both of them don't cut it, and/or injuries, maybe. Definitely not to start. If he does get in the top 6, it would be a temporary fill in until we find/develop a better replacement. Butler was not close to good enough, and he has proven to be a better goal scorer in the AHL; even in his first year. Hoffman is basically a 20 goal scorer in the AHL. If you expect Spezza and Silfverberg to get more out of him, I see that as a problem.
btw - why not post more often? We didn't agree but it was a pleasure discussing/debating the issue with you. Stick around, its not a bad place to talk hockey.

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01-04-2013, 07:04 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Montreal had a solid goalie as well in Huet that year but WANTED Price to take over fully and dealt Huet to Washington in what was an absolutely unexpected move by the Habs. They wanted Price to carry his strong play and even though he was a ROOKIE!

Turned out pretty well for them. I'm wondering what might happen if the lock-out ends... Do we call up Lehner and split some games early on with Anderson? Is Bishop going to be called up instead even though Lehner deserves it more? If Lehner does really well do we deal Anderson? I don't think so but who knows what management thinks.
Ehhhhhhhh.... that's highly debatable. Huet had a nice 2005-06, but wasn't anything special afterwards. And the Huet trade didn't exactly work out for the Habs in the short run, especially in the playoffs. Price's first 3 playoff year stats:

2008: 2.78gaa, .901sv
2009: 4.11gaa, .878sv
2010: 3.56gaa, .890sv

What I'm trying to say is that I think Price is a great goalie, and if you ask me, he should be Team Canada's starter in the next Olympics (if nothing changes between now and then), but I think his recent successes have been achieved DESPITE Montreal's decision to throw games at him that early in his career, not BECAUSE of it.

I think they're lucky that Price rebounded as well as he did, because he looked pretty bad for long stretches of two years, before they dealt Halak. Sure, he looked outstanding at times, but he was, for two years, one of the streakiest goalies in the league.

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01-04-2013, 07:08 AM
  #196
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31 is NOT middle aged! Damn punk kids.


Also, Lehner had major attitude problems a couple years ago and is maturing now. Price has always been cool and calm under pressure.

Montreal used their history with Patrick Roy to try and repeat with Price. If Price crapped out, it would have ruined his development.

And remember what Murray said when Anderson cut himself, if something happened to Lehner they had no one else to turn to. We were in the playoff race. Anderson was gone for a month. A team just had to run Lehner and Ottawa would have been screwed. Auld was garbage. It was insurance and a good deal.

As others have mentioned, Bishop would command an equal return for what we gave up if not more. Problem being, no hockey.
Cool and calm under pressure doesn't equal success and maturity.

If I remember correctly, his 2nd season wasn't very successful as his 1st one because he thought he didn't have to work hard during the off-season. Mentally, he wasn't as ready.

It could have backed fire at MTL but Price realized he had to work harder.

Kind of the same thing happened with Lehner except it was in the AHL.

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01-04-2013, 09:04 AM
  #197
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If you're not taking salary into the question, this is definitely wrong. And I hate Redden with a passion.
Sorta arguable at this point. Redden has barely played hockey over the past year and a half and Benoit has been way better when he has been playing. Benoit has played in the NHL more over the past 2 years, Benoit is clearly an improving player while Redden is at the end of a 5 year decline... I don't know if Redden would still be a better NHL DMan than Benoit. Especially if he's still unsure what he'll be doing next year. If he's been working out in preparation for an AHL stint, there's no way he outplays Benoit this year.

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01-04-2013, 09:43 AM
  #198
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Why would Bishop command more? Everyone doesn't love Sens players and prospects as much as this board does. In an albeit small bidding war in a situation of relative panic, the Sens gave up a 2nd rounder. Why would anyone do that now, as he's older, closer to UFA and while decent in the NHL, didn't really dramatically open eyes?

Also, where is that Murray quote from? Not a very nice thing to say about Alex Auld, a player you've invested a couple of million dollars in.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Bishop would have been a UFA last year if he did not play in a certain number of NHL games.

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01-04-2013, 10:05 AM
  #199
Holdurbreathe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
It is a possibility, but I still see Latendresse and Regin ahead of him. So if one or both of them don't cut it, and/or injuries, maybe. Definitely not to start. If he does get in the top 6, it would be a temporary fill in until we find/develop a better replacement. Butler was not close to good enough, and he has proven to be a better goal scorer in the AHL; even in his first year. Hoffman is basically a 20 goal scorer in the AHL. If you expect Spezza and Silfverberg to get more out of him, I see that as a problem.
At this point in time I don't think there is any question Latendresse and Regin are ahead of every forward in Binghamton, with the possible exception of Silf.

However both of these players have a history of injury, so Hoffman could very well be in the mix for a role in Ottawa if the season begins.

That said, I find your attempt to extrapolate any player's potential NHL performance from AHL statistics grossly flawed. The best example of this failed logic is Corey Locke, who by the way would be a much better comparative to Butler than Hoffman.

Butler's problem is he just doesn't skate well enough to play in the NHL, nor is he physically strong enough yet. Exactly the same things that kept Locke from making a successful jump to the NHL.

On the other hand, Hoffman is one of the best skaters in the Sens prospect pool, has great hands, thinks the game well and is developing physically. His one weakness was his defensive play, while he is improving he still has work to do.

These attributes fit the highly structured NHL style of play to a significantly greater degree than a player like Locke or Butler. As a matter of fact Hoffman could be a more productive NHL player due to the emphasis on system and not development.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 01-04-2013 at 10:23 AM.
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Old
01-04-2013, 11:00 AM
  #200
Germz
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Man oh man we are thin on D. Why on earth did Murray trade Brian Lee? What the hell was he thinking. We could totally use him now. Steady guy to sit in the #4-5 role with Cowen out. Instead we'll probably have to overpay for a free agent, rush Wiercioch or rob Bingo of a quality AHL guy like Benoit.

Murray

honestly how does he still have a job

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