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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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01-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #676
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If the "wealthy" teams are helping finance the less wealthy teams they should be given some sort of (slight)competitive advantage.

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01-03-2013, 04:03 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
And once the league does get back in business, which I believe will be announced next week, we'll see how the southern markets respond. I am betting with even lower attendance and lower TV ratings. And they won't come back near as quickly as last time.
And then, unless Bettman and his 'vision' are finally dumped and there's a wave of relocations to places that actually want to watch hockey, we'll be back to a lockout again in 7-10 years.

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01-03-2013, 04:34 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
And then, unless Bettman and his 'vision' are finally dumped and there's a wave of relocations to places that actually want to watch hockey, we'll be back to a lockout again in 7-10 years.
Bettman's "vision" of a new game last time was good, but then refs stopped calling penalties.

The southern markets bounced back last time because the game was promised to be improved and it was, but since has trailed off though entertainment has been better. This time no improvements, just no NHL for awhile now. Not sure that will fly down South. I hope Nashville bounces back for one.

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01-03-2013, 05:02 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Bettman's "vision" of a new game last time was good, but then refs stopped calling penalties.

The southern markets bounced back last time because the game was promised to be improved and it was, but since has trailed off though entertainment has been better. This time no improvements, just no NHL for awhile now. Not sure that will fly down South. I hope Nashville bounces back for one.
It's funny that people ignore this. The economic changes were suppose to help Edmonton compete It was the on ice changes that made the NHL better. Hopefully they get around to that when this thing is settled.

Hockey players are better than ever before. They need a platform to show it.

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01-03-2013, 05:04 PM
  #680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
And then, unless Bettman and his 'vision' are finally dumped and there's a wave of relocations to places that actually want to watch hockey, we'll be back to a lockout again in 7-10 years.
I agree with this. Those bad market teams will continue to lose money and we'll be back in this situation again. That's generally what happens in any business when you can't sell your product at a very low selling price.

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01-03-2013, 05:23 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I agree with this. Those bad market teams will continue to lose money and we'll be back in this situation again. That's generally what happens in any business when you can't sell your product at a very low selling price.
If those teams give their fanbases a better product they can still make it imo. I think the NHL feels this gives them an opportunity to do that.

In general I'm surprised that people that are really passionate about hockey don't think the game can sell in these markets. It's a great game, I think at its best it can sell anywhere.

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01-03-2013, 05:26 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If those teams give their fanbases a better product they can still make it imo. I think the NHL feels this gives them an opportunity to do that.

In general I'm surprised that people that are really passionate about hockey don't think the game can sell in these markets. It's a great game, I think at its best it can sell anywhere.
Carolina won a Cup and that didn't translate into sell outs. Tampa won a Cup and has had an up and down team. Phoenix is coming off a WCF and they had the worse attendance in the regular season. If the fans there wanted their team to stay they should have supported their team, especially since its been a winning team for a few years now.

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01-03-2013, 05:32 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
And then, unless Bettman and his 'vision' are finally dumped and there's a wave of relocations to places that actually want to watch hockey, we'll be back to a lockout again in 7-10 years.
Yep.

Depending when the next CBA expires.

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01-03-2013, 05:37 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Carolina won a Cup and that didn't translate into sell outs. Tampa won a Cup and has had an up and down team. Phoenix is coming off a WCF and they had the worse attendance in the regular season. If the fans there wanted their team to stay they should have supported their team, especially since its been a winning team for a few years now.
How are they suppose to have good regular season attendance coming off a WCF when there hasn't been a regular season played?


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01-03-2013, 05:56 PM
  #685
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How are they suppose to have good regular season attendance coming off a WCF when there hasn't been a regular season played?

I'm guessing he was mostly referring to last years team and nobody came out to see them and they were a playoff team.

Much like the last 2-3 years.

The mantra is always 'win and they'll come watch', but in Phoenix a playoff team for 3 years selling tickets that come with a 26oz bottle of liquor, a parking pass, and a meal at the rink for under 50$ people still don't care.

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01-03-2013, 05:59 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Bettman's "vision" of a new game last time was good, but then refs stopped calling penalties.
.
Gosh, if only poor Gary had some control over that. Oh, wait...

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01-03-2013, 06:05 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I'm guessing he was mostly referring to last years team and nobody came out to see them and they were a playoff team.

Much like the last 2-3 years.

The mantra is always 'win and they'll come watch', but in Phoenix a playoff team for 3 years selling tickets that come with a 26oz bottle of liquor, a parking pass, and a meal at the rink for under 50$ people still don't care.

I agree that winning is the most important thing but watching a boring defense first team won't bring excitement... which really brings American fans. If they were more offensive there would be more excitement & more buzz around that team.

IMO they would have more fans if they were winning games & putting up a 5+ spot instead of winning games 1-0, 2-1..etc


That and rink location.


In saying that I think PHX should relocate.

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01-03-2013, 07:01 PM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
It's funny that people ignore this. The economic changes were suppose to help Edmonton compete It was the on ice changes that made the NHL better. Hopefully they get around to that when this thing is settled.

Hockey players are better than ever before. They need a platform to show it.
Yeah, looking back it wasn't uncommon to see a boxscore with a team getting double digit powerplays, now it's seems just as common to see two teams combined not reach double digit powerplays during February-April.

I thought Kerry Fraser's "C'mon Ref" article entitled "Let them play=Let them cheat" was very poignant and think he believes refs should be able to call more games but for whatever reason they seem to think non-calls are less impactful on a game than calls are. This is not true, especially in the playoffs where teams usually with successful powerplays made it in. Of course, I'm biased but I think I would believe in this if our team had a 10% efficiency rate (see: Jeff Cowan days).

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Gosh, if only poor Gary had some control over that. Oh, wait...
I realize he had control over that. Let's say I am crediting and discrediting at the same time.

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01-03-2013, 09:02 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If those teams give their fanbases a better product they can still make it imo. I think the NHL feels this gives them an opportunity to do that.

In general I'm surprised that people that are really passionate about hockey don't think the game can sell in these markets. It's a great game, I think at its best it can sell anywhere.
This has nothing to do with what we think. This is essentially a nature vs. nurture debate. The game is strong in Canada because it's a part of the country's culture - it's a fabric of Canadian society. This is not the case in the Sun belt. As entertaining as it can be, it will never be anything more than a novelty. It will never impermeate the culture the way football/baseball/basketball is a part of their culture.

Frankly, I think everyone is wasting their time trying to promote a game in markets that will never take hold.

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01-03-2013, 10:56 PM
  #690
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Carolina won a Cup and that didn't translate into sell outs. Tampa won a Cup and has had an up and down team. Phoenix is coming off a WCF and they had the worse attendance in the regular season. If the fans there wanted their team to stay they should have supported their team, especially since its been a winning team for a few years now.
The NHL hasn't been a great product for a long time imo. We've been pretty spoiled here with some very entertaining team but most NHL games haven't been worth watching. People here quit going to the games in the late 90's, would that have been different if we'd won the cup in '94?

Phoenix plays awful hockey and the NHL has been jerking their fans around since they built the rink in the wrong city.

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This has nothing to do with what we think. This is essentially a nature vs. nurture debate. The game is strong in Canada because it's a part of the country's culture - it's a fabric of Canadian society. This is not the case in the Sun belt. As entertaining as it can be, it will never be anything more than a novelty. It will never impermeate the culture the way football/baseball/basketball is a part of their culture.

Frankly, I think everyone is wasting their time trying to promote a game in markets that will never take hold.
Fighting and the UFC haven't been a part of the average americans life either. You're looking too much into this. People want to be entertained, hockey can be very entertaining. The NHL has done a poor job of making games entertaining.

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01-03-2013, 11:01 PM
  #691
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A person in the desert had probably at least been in a fight or witnessed one once in their lives. People can relate to UFC that way.

People in the desert I'd imagine have a tough time relating to a sport on ice.

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01-03-2013, 11:02 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL hasn't been a great product for a long time imo. We've been pretty spoiled here with some very entertaining team but most NHL games haven't been worth watching. People here quit going to the games in the late 90's, would that have been different if we'd won the cup in '94?

Phoenix plays awful hockey and the NHL has been jerking their fans around since they built the rink in the wrong city.



Fighting and the UFC haven't been a part of the average americans life either. You're looking too much into this. People want to be entertained, hockey can be very entertaining. The NHL has done a poor job of making games entertaining.
Much as I wish to say the contrary, last season had numerous Canuck games that nearly felt like a chore to watch. Pretty much the moment we adhered to the defensive shutdown philosophy many teams have employed, we were equally as dull. What baffles me is defensive hockey can be entertaining; New York and Ottawa proved that. Yet those are so few and far in between.

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01-03-2013, 11:08 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
A person in the desert had probably at least been in a fight or witnessed one once in their lives. People can relate to UFC that way.

People in the desert I'd imagine have a tough time relating to a sport on ice.
You think a 5'8" tall kid from the desert can relate to Lebron?

The average person has never been in a fight.

Hockey is only limited because it's so expensive. It's a great game and there are a lot of great athletes in the states that know they don't have the frame for basketball or football and the guys they are watching are closer to what they look like than the genetic freaks playing those other sports. It has worked in California where there are now some good young players developing there, I believe given a real chance it can work anywhere.

An NBA players son is a great young player and might go 1st overall.

Even hockey fans sell hockey short.

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01-03-2013, 11:23 PM
  #694
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Yeah, looking back it wasn't uncommon to see a boxscore with a team getting double digit powerplays, now it's seems just as common to see two teams combined not reach double digit powerplays during February-April.
Players and coaches have definitely adapted. We don't see the same hooking, holding and interference we used to see but they are slowing the game down and the league has been slow to adapt. The NHL needs rules that make hockey as exciting as possible.

Goalie equipment is the biggest problem facing hockey imo. Because goalie are so big nobody can score from the outside so teams don't have to defend out there. That puts 5 defenders in front of the net and leaves little room to create offence. Goalie gear is out of control with pads up to their hip and lacrosse chest protectors.

NHL talent is at an all time high. Players skate, stickhandle and shoot better than ever before. I don't see a lot of that when I watch NHL hockey.


Last edited by Scurr: 01-04-2013 at 12:03 AM.
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01-03-2013, 11:58 PM
  #695
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01-04-2013, 02:02 AM
  #696
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Fighting and the UFC haven't been a part of the average americans life either.
I don't see what your point is. Does the UFC pack 18K fans for 40+ games over the course of a season?

Quote:
You're looking too much into this. People want to be entertained, hockey can be very entertaining. The NHL has done a poor job of making games entertaining.
Also, kids there don't dream of becoming hockey players. People don't talk about the hockey game at work the day after. Believe it or not, having the game as a part of your culture does have an impact on it being popular.

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01-04-2013, 05:48 AM
  #697
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I'm at the point now where I'm questioning Donald Fehr's tactics, where before I was fully on board with what he was doing. The disclaimer _had_ to be used much earlier in the process. They should have filed in October. Now there is a situation where the PA is losing money to no eventual benefit. The money they lost is gone.



If you can't recoup it with a grinding negotiation, even to the wire, then what's the point of grinding things out? If he tries until the end, finds that the best deal the NHL is offering isn't good enough, then he files and the season is over. What did he gain?



What power does the disclaimer have if the season is in danger of being cancelled now anyways? The DOI is a negotiating tool, useful in the midst of talks. If there are no talks past Jan 11th, what use is it? He should have used it in October.




Edit: I want to amend this by saying that the Disclaimer equals the players deadline. The only way to use this properly now is to issue a real drop dead date for the disclaimer by the PA. And it has to come before the Jan 11th speculated deadline. Take that hammer away from the NHL.


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01-04-2013, 05:58 AM
  #698
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Yeah I know, they can still negotiate a deal, and also if they don't file it now they can always re-apply later. But with the NHL season cancellation deadline so close this will tell us how good the negotiations are really going right now. To file would antagonize the league and risk all the current progress.
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It shouldn't antagonize them, its just business...just like the NHL filing suit against the PA. Didn't hear any complaints from the PA about it really.



But why do it now at all? What possible benefit could it yield? If Fehr feels that the league will jump the last little bit, then it makes sense, but is there any indication that he will? And even if Bettman does, overall the deal is still a win for the NHL because it has reduced overall player compensation from the last CBA. So what exactly is Fehr fighting for now?



I've thought Fehr has pulled some pretty brilliant maneuvers during this lockout. He's highly intelligent. That said, he should have filed that DOI months ago. It's his biggest mistake IMO. He could have used it as the negotiating tactic it is meant to be. Now, with the cancellation of the season looming, it's going to become a mean nothing gesture to the larger explosion.

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01-04-2013, 07:35 AM
  #699
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm at the point now where I'm questioning Donald Fehr's tactics, where before I was fully on board with what he was doing. The disclaimer _had_ to be used much earlier in the process. They should have filed in October. Now there is a situation where the PA is losing money to no eventual benefit. The money they lost is gone.



If you can't recoup it with a grinding negotiation, even to the wire, then what's the point of grinding things out? If he tries until the end, finds that the best deal the NHL is offering isn't good enough, then he files and the season is over. What did he gain?



What power does the disclaimer have if the season is in danger of being cancelled now anyways? The DOI is a negotiating tool, useful in the midst of talks. If there are no talks past Jan 11th, what use is it? He should have used it in October.




Edit: I want to amend this by saying that the Disclaimer equals the players deadline. The only way to use this properly now is to issue a real drop dead date for the disclaimer by the PA. And it has to come before the Jan 11th speculated deadline. Take that hammer away from the NHL.
If they issued a drop-dead date for the disclaimer, they might be strengthening the NHL's case that it's just a negotiating tactic. Fehr may be hoping that a DoI would lead to the lockout being proclaimed illegal, and cancelled season or not, the NHL might be forced to re-open their doors. I think it's more likely though that if they go that route, this process drags on in the courts and the season doesn't happen, and next season may be in jeopardy.

A cancelled season might be the final nail in the coffin for certain troubled markets like Phoenix/Glendale or Miami, which means moving the teams to more profitable markets. That would be a win for the NHLPA, because that would grow the HRR pie.

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01-04-2013, 07:45 AM
  #700
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If they issued a drop-dead date for the disclaimer, they might be strengthening the NHL's case that it's just a negotiating tactic. Fehr may be hoping that a DoI would lead to the lockout being proclaimed illegal, and cancelled season or not, the NHL might be forced to re-open their doors. I think it's more likely though that if they go that route, this process drags on in the courts and the season doesn't happen, and next season may be in jeopardy.

A cancelled season might be the final nail in the coffin for certain troubled markets like Phoenix/Glendale or Miami, which means moving the teams to more profitable markets. That would be a win for the NHLPA, because that would grow the HRR pie.
Not necessarily. The NHL could merely fold those teams and render a number of players out of a job. Relocation attaches is a costly venture, and not one to be taken lightly. The PA is walking on thin ice if they hope to pressure the league in this manner. Personally, I believe any possibility of the DOI not being thrown out of court was lost the moment they allowed the original to expire. How do they convince a judge it was nothing more than a negotiation ploy when they only ever bring it up to strong arm the owners?

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