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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:50 AM
  #326
IceDaddy
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
You're right... but what I don't get is what gives players the idea that Bettman isnt serious?
They have no clue if bettman is serious or not. They are just saying that a 42 game season can happen or Fehr is selling that to the players who are starting to panic about the deadline.

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01-04-2013, 08:50 AM
  #327
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Forget how little interest in the NHL there is in Texas. Listening to the radio on the way into work and they talked about everything from the BCS games to high school basketball. At the very end of the segment the NHL was discussed.

"For all you NHL fans out there...(much laughter)...who are we kidding there are no NHL fans out there...the strike is ongoing". Brakes away to the anchorman..."Is it even a real sport?...(much laughter)....Now to weather, John."

So depressing
Yep, as much as I like the Stars (both teams) I can't wait to GTFO of this hell hole.

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01-04-2013, 08:50 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by marioni View Post
You're right... but what I don't get is what gives players the idea that Bettman isnt serious?
It's a fairly early deadline, both logistically and in comparison to previous lockouts. Realistically they should be able to salvage something of a season up until the end of January.

That said, as a fan and STH I would support the league making 1/11 a hard deadline and cutting off negotiations at that point. Enough is enough. You can't leave invested parties dangling in a state of uncertainty forever.

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01-04-2013, 08:51 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by ODCapital74 View Post
Thanks for promoting that, man. (I'm the guy that made it btw)
Sorry that I did not bother to look you up, but it really is a good resource.

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01-04-2013, 08:53 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's a fairly early deadline, both logistically and in comparison to previous lockouts. Realistically they should be able to salvage something of a season up until the end of January.

That said, as a fan and STH I would support the league making 1/11 a hard deadline and cutting off negotiations at that point. Enough is enough. You can't leave invested parties dangling in a state of uncertainty forever.

this.

We can all sit here and discuss viable deadline dates all day long but at some point enough is enough. There has to be a hard deadline. Who knows if January 11th is the real deadline but they simply cannot let people twist in the wind forever.

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01-04-2013, 08:53 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
Do we have any indication yet what exactly this "fast one" was? Something about hiding hockey revenue and its punishment, but what was the specific change?

A 65million dollar cap is the potential for money above 50% HRR
It's very unlikely it happens, but 65 million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3billion. In fact, 60million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3 billion already. So what are the players complaining about? HRR will also not be 3.3billion next year, no way.

All we know is that the league's proposal significantly weakened penalties for being caught hiding HRR. They have not denied that. Without needing to know the specific change, the intent is pretty clear.

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01-04-2013, 08:55 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
Do we have any indication yet what exactly this "fast one" was? Something about hiding hockey revenue and its punishment, but what was the specific change?

A 65million dollar cap is the potential for money above 50% HRR
It's very unlikely it happens, but 65 million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3billion. In fact, 60million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3 billion already. So what are the players complaining about? HRR will also not be 3.3billion next year, no way.
Right, but it leaves more money in the pool that off-season. They understand that they will likely all lose money to escrow, and they have agreed to not have a cap on escrow. The difference between $60 and 65MM could cost a vet getting a nice contract. For example, let's say the Rangers are exactly at $59MM. They can give a vet $6MM with the $65MM cap, but only $1MM with the $60MM cap. Even if they lose 20% on escrow with a $65MM cap, that player is still getting $4.8MM for the year, a lot more than the $1MM.

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Old
01-04-2013, 08:57 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's a fairly early deadline, both logistically and in comparison to previous lockouts. Realistically they should be able to salvage something of a season up until the end of January.

That said, as a fan and STH I would support the league making 1/11 a hard deadline and cutting off negotiations at that point. Enough is enough. You can't leave invested parties dangling in a state of uncertainty forever.
If I'm Bettman, I'd announce a press conference for the 12th, and tell the PA "Look, one way or another, there's going to be a press conference next Saturday. We can either both be there, announcing a deal, or you can stay on the sidelines, and it'll just be me and Bill, calling the rest of the season off. The only way that press conference on the 12th is getting cancelled is if we've got a deal before then."

Of course, I'd never expect Bettman to ever say something like that, because I doubt that the relationship between Fehr and Bettman would ever allow it, but that's what I'd be doing.

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01-04-2013, 08:58 AM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Funk View Post
Do we have any indication yet what exactly this "fast one" was? Something about hiding hockey revenue and its punishment, but what was the specific change?

A 65million dollar cap is the potential for money above 50% HRR
It's very unlikely it happens, but 65 million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3billion. In fact, 60million times 30 teams is more than 50% of 3.3 billion already. So what are the players complaining about? HRR will also not be 3.3billion next year, no way.
The fast one stuff is complete nonsense IF the reports that it was in the original proposal given to them with highlited and stickied are true.

WIth regards to the cap, the floor being higher and thus upsetting the competitive balance part is equally nonsense when you consider a couple of things. Firstly is that were talking about a very small amount of money per team rather than 10 million or more. Secondly, the money argument doesn't work either unless the reports that the players are not asking for capped escrow have changed. The escrow will ensure that they get the 50% and no more or less.

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01-04-2013, 09:06 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
You could be on to something with a couple posters here...
It's not as bad as TSN. You'd think Bettman was as popular with fans as Bobby Orr based on some of the comments over there. I swear it's Daly posting in his downtime.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:06 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
The previous discussion pertained to how GMs could reconcile budgeting under the wrong cap number. That's a different effect, though it does share the same cause.

Make-whole has nothing to do with this one. If a $2 million player on an expiring contract doesn't want to leave [city that planned on having $70 million of budget space because that's what Bettman said to do, and would otherwise have happily re-signed him at $2 million], the only way he can sign where he wants is taking $500k, which is a quarter of his "worth." Make whole doesn't correct his problem. He's made whole to the tune of $500k-ish instead of $2 mil minus inflated escrow.

Now, you might say, that's already true now, but it isn't. Because the GMs misbudgeted due to league directives, guys who wouldn't have normally been out of budget now are. And there will be a lot of them.
PA chose the option to raise the salary cap against the advise of Bettman.

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01-04-2013, 09:06 AM
  #337
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So the meeting was supposed to have started now right?

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:07 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
The fast one stuff is complete nonsense IF the reports that it was in the original proposal given to them with highlited and stickied are true.

WIth regards to the cap, the floor being higher and thus upsetting the competitive balance part is equally nonsense when you consider a couple of things. Firstly is that were talking about a very small amount of money per team rather than 10 million or more. Secondly, the money argument doesn't work either unless the reports that the players are not asking for capped escrow have changed. The escrow will ensure that they get the 50% and no more or less.
Yes, IF it is true and despite being only 2 letters long, IF is the biggest word in the English language.

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01-04-2013, 09:07 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by ODCapital74 View Post
Thanks for promoting that, man. (I'm the guy that made it btw)
Thanks, and bookmarked!

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:09 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHLPA hired James Quinn to represent them. Quinn brokered the NBA CBA in the fall of 2011.
http://www.weil.com/jamesquinn/
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...ent/index.html

The Oscar Robertson case
http://www.thebigo.com/AboutOscarRob...ertsonRule.php

Its now just Proskauer Rose. Gary Bettman's firm.
This is very good news. He brokered the NBA agreement,as you say;

On Nov. 18, the Los Angeles Times ran a feature story on Jeff Kessler, the NBPA's outside counsel and lead negotiator who formerly was a partner of Quinn's. It detailed Kessler's long history of wrangling with the NBA and Stern, dating to the Robertson suit and every legal dispute in the 1980s, '90s and since. It never mentioned Quinn.
O'Daniel called the story to Quinn's attention. Within hours, the back channels of compromise in the 2011 lockout were open for business.


If Fehr walks out the door and this man walks in it can only be a huge improvement.

Also on Sportsnet last night Michael Grange said the Judge in New York who is to hear the NHL case is also very anxious to find an agreement and to do all possible to expedite that. So if that is the case the sooner they get to court the better.

The only danger is that Quinn, who is the lawyer who came up with the idea of decertification as a weapon for PA's and Batterman may decide to have this out once and for all like Captain Ahab and the great white whale.

I don't expect that to happen though-get this thing into court and let the grown ups take over.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:13 AM
  #341
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To quote Danny Murtaugh, "I'm getting too old for this ****."

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:16 AM
  #342
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Dave Stubbs
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Via @MaStrozyk: #Habs Lars Eller headed back to Montreal after Saturday game w/ Finland's JYP. He's got 5G, 10A in 14 games

https://twitter.com/Dave_Stubbs/stat...09989330829312

Another NHL player coming back.

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01-04-2013, 09:16 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Right, but it leaves more money in the pool that off-season. They understand that they will likely all lose money to escrow, and they have agreed to not have a cap on escrow. The difference between $60 and 65MM could cost a vet getting a nice contract. For example, let's say the Rangers are exactly at $59MM. They can give a vet $6MM with the $65MM cap, but only $1MM with the $60MM cap. Even if they lose 20% on escrow with a $65MM cap, that player is still getting $4.8MM for the year, a lot more than the $1MM.
This is why I'm surprised the NHLPA is pushing so hard for a higher cap. For every vet getting $4.8M instead of $6M, there are ten guys making $1M and getting $800K who would (in the lower cap world) still have $1M because there would have been no need to reach into escrow. Higher cap in an escrow world allows the players who are currently signed to subsidize the unsigned players to receive larger contracts. Most of their membership should be opposed to this.

So, I guess the NHLPA must be confident that the $65M cap would not reach the escrow situation.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:17 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
If I am a player I am mad at my lawyers for taking a week to bring this up. You're paying them to look out for your interests and they obviously aren't doing a good job. That said this process has been miserable enough the league has to start building trust with it's players. Changing the punishment for a team hiding HHR at this point of a negotiation is idiotic. Unless the NHL was making it more severe hey look guys we're serious no hiding money from players or you get hammered with penalties. You just don't go the other way at this point all you are doing is injecting mistrust into the negotiations it makes 0 sense to do it highlighted and bolded or not.
Why bring it up while the league was actually negotiating for the first time? I'm sure the lawyers found this sooner but they didn't want to derail talks.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:19 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by NJDevs26 View Post
Besides, that's what each side is paying its lawyers millions of dollars for, to find these 'little' changes. This is the most unneccesary issue of a totally unneccesary labor war...if you're the league why would you even bother changing something that would OBVIOUSLY cause the other side to think you're trying to encourage cheating and hiding HRR? Of course Fehr and his hard-liners saved this little info just when negotiations were on an uptick, they did not miss it for an entire week.

I have no use for any of these morons.
I find it very hard to believe that in a billion dollar negotiation that lawyers failed to notice changes in a legal document that they had several days to review (flags and highlighting or not).

Smells an awful lot like the last derail by Fehr, when everything seemed real close and then he blew it up and reportedly told the players to hold out longer.

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01-04-2013, 09:20 AM
  #346
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Why bring it up while the league was actually negotiating for the first time? I'm sure the lawyers found this sooner but they didn't want to derail talks.
I'm sure these lawyers have the basic communication skills to relay the discrepancies to their clients without invoking mass hysteria, especially considering this whole mess was cleared up in a morning.

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01-04-2013, 09:24 AM
  #347
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Tim Panaccio ‏@tpanotchCSN
not to spoil anything, but Bill Daly told me he does not have very high expectations going into today's meetings after yesterday.
https://twitter.com/tpanotchCSN/stat...17868599328769

Well, that's that.

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Old
01-04-2013, 09:25 AM
  #348
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Lebrun:

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OK, it turns out the players and their leader, Don Fehr, were in foul mood after they discovered the league might have tried to pull as fast one on HRR language in last week's offer. Did I say last week’s offer? Yes, I did. Did it really take a week for the union’s lawyers to find the HRR treachery?
This is why I smell a rat. I think they found it right away but decided to hold on to it and play that card when they wanted to blow things up. Seems the NHLPA side is not ready to make a deal yet. How far will they push that deadline, 11th? 15th? 20th?

IMO it sure seems clear they are not ready to end this yet.

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01-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #349
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James Quinn was already working for the PA. He is now responsible for defending the PA against the NHL lawsuit and whatever else the PA decides. The two sides have to be in court on Monday morning. Quinn will be there.

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01-04-2013, 09:27 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
This is why I smell a rat. I think they found it right away but decided to hold on to it and play that card when they wanted to blow things up. Seems the NHLPA side is not ready to make a deal yet. How far will they push that deadline, 11th? 15th? 20th?

IMO it sure seems clear they are not ready to end this yet.
The NHL has held firm on all deadlines so I hope they dont think they can push this past the 11th!!

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