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NHL Lockout Discussion XLIV: The Night and the Silent Water

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01-04-2013, 11:51 AM
  #601
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It wasn't dramatic at all.. it was replying to several months of melodramatic people claiming the PA is solely to blame and Fehr is the devil.

You cannot compare a typical business to a professional sports team. Soccer, the most popular sport in the world has the most successful teams operating at a loss... the ownership is seen as a hobby and not a business. In the NHL the majority of teams do make a profit. The successful ones make a HUGE profit. An actor doesn't suffer if he does his job well but the movie he plays in loses money (unless he agreed to such terms). Similarly the players in professional sports do not suffer if they happen to play for a team that cannot make it's business work.
So, the players haven't suffered by losing over 700 million dollars in salary this season?

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01-04-2013, 11:52 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
What type of business did you own. Were your employees your workers AND your product at the same time? Did people pay money to see your employees perform their jobs? Tend to doubt your business was anything like owning a team.
Yes actually in the Hospitality business you can make good money if the woman serving are beautiful enough and yes men did come in to see the woman I mean bartenders and sometimes you have to pay more to keep them on, sometimes the costs out way the benefits.

But the type of business makes no difference. Once you are a business owner turning a profit is the main goal....once you reach that goal increasing your profit is next. The best way to increase or stop losing money is to lower your labor cost. Economics 101......does it make me or any other business owner stupid because we follow the owners or are we blind? Or maybe we just understand what running a business is all about.

Just ask Hartford, Atlanta twice, Coyotes, Kansas City, Minnesota, Winnipeg ect ect...

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01-04-2013, 11:52 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
The thing is, the PA has too. The only difference is the owners shut down talks when they don't accept it and refuse to talk for several weeks BEFORE upping their own offer
Very minimally, if at all until this last week.

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01-04-2013, 11:52 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
Problem with this is there are 700 players and the vast majority are not involved in talks at all. They're the ones saying things like this, not the ones actually negotiating. The ones there every day negotiating will later explain why they wanted compliance buyouts and these idiots will then switch completely and be all for it.

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01-04-2013, 11:52 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
That literally never happened, not even once.
Haha nice, you probably haven't been following this closely if you don't remember Bettman's infamous December presser. And it's not even the only time the NHL threw a hissy fit after the PA refuses to unilaterally accept the NHL latest's "best offer that won't get better".

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
As I understand the process it's more then Fehr walking away. The union itself seperates and walks away from the players. Wouldn't they have to find a new organization to help them pick up where things leave off?
This is not a vote to decertify the union, I think for a DOI it is Fehr walking away from the union.
When this happened with the NBA their lawyer.,which is also the one the NHLPA has retained, helped to end the impasse.

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...ent/index.html


The judge appointed for the NHL case also sounds like he wants this deal done ASAP.

@michaelgrange

15hMichael Grange‏@michaelgrange

".... the parties' ability to resolve their disputes with dispatch." #NHL For hockey fans, looks like NHL-NHLPA lucked into right judge.


15hMichael Grange‏@michaelgrange

In general, Judge says his goal is to create a case management plan "that may enhance, and does not needlessly inhibit .

Judge also takes unusual step of offering to appoint a Southern District Judge w/ experience in Anti-trust cases as a mediater #NHL /

In his order in advance on Monday's conference Judge offers to expedite process to have motion resolved next week


http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._negotiations/

If there is one positive it’s that the judge scheduled to hear the legal dispute, Paul Engelmayer, is clear about the time sensitivity regarding the filings before him. At the meeting Monday morning he expects the league and the union to be prepared to agree to a case management plan that would resolve the legal dispute within the week and "that may enhance and does not needlessly inhibit the parties’ ability to resolve their disputes with dispatch." He also makes the unusual offer of providing another judge with experience in anti-trust issues as a mediator.

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
The NHLPA is a laugh.

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
If that's true it's honestly comical at this point. About as clever as a herd of oxen.

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Bettman seemed pretty sensitive a couple of weeks ago when he almost started crying about Fehr's tactics. And the so-called 'moderate' owners also acted pretty sensitive. It's business. Both sides are pushing the others' buttons.
You mean when he was pissed Fehr went before camera's and lied to fans/media about how close a deal was?

He had every right to be pissed and so did every writter/fan

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
So basically:

-The players specifically requested something
-The league agreed
-The players figured out that the thing they want might not be used in the WAY they want
-The players get ******** and don't want to cooperate anymore

Pretty much the entire lockout in a microcosm.

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
Every other professional sports league has a CBA agreement where the players make right around 50%.... this isn't some insanely sweet deal that the PA should be jumping after, it's where it was always inevitably going to go. No other league has insane restrictions on contracts which the NHL wants. No other league had insane contracts being handed out mere hours before the CBA expired knowing they'd be demanding a huge cut out of those contracts back. This isn't a case of one side or the other having a deal they should take immediately, it's a case of negotiations continuing to break down for reasons outside of the actual offers.
No other league has contract restrictions like the NHL wants? The NBA has 5 year contract term limits, lower than the now proposed 6/8 the NHL is offering. And it's had term limits for awhile and hasn't had problems with back diving contracts that it needs to combat. And...the NFL has Non-Gauaranteed contracts...

The NHLPA is getting offered the sweetest CBA in NAnpro sports (except maybe for MLB for star players but NHLers will make a higher % of revenue). And this is despite the fact that hockey players bring their owners a lot less money and profit than the other major NA sports

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
No idea what you're referring to but everything I posted there did indeed happen
Im sure you believe your interpretation of events, but your perception is not what happened. A dead giveaway is that you speak in absolutes (always, every time, never, etc...).

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
Very minimally, if at all until this last week.
Again I disagree. This is exactly why the owners submitted such an absurd original offer... it looks like they're moving far more than they really are.

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01-04-2013, 11:53 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
The NBA isn't losing money though... you seem to think that if crap teams lose money that it needs to be fixed by the players.

Your right, make up whatever you want so you can win the argument.

The well documented NBA teams still losing money is not real.

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01-04-2013, 11:54 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Oh the horrible owners continue to bend when they have nothing left to give to save the season knowing missing a full season will CRIPPLE THE NHL.


Basic's.

NFL 10 billion split 50/50 with players. 5 billion to 32 teams.

NHL 3 billion split 50/50 with players. 1.5 billion to 30 teams.


Get it? They don't have the money to give the players 50/50.

What do you think the operating costs differences are between the NFL and NHL?

Probably the NHL costs more or close to the same even with the bigger franchises and venue's because of the massive difference in games.


This is why MLS owners get like 80% of revenue

the NBA has a 50/50 split, NBA owners are still losing money, the NBA makes a billion more dollars than the NHL.



the NHL owners keep caving at the expense of league health to make sure a full season isn't missed or the NHL may never recover fully.
Giving the players 50/50 won't cripple the league. As I showed yesterday, using a 57/43 split, there was still more than enough profit to use 35% revenue sharing to make the teams losing money turn a small profit. With a 50/50 split and revenue sharing there won't be difficulties. However, difficulties might pop up if the cap gets too high and those teams get left behind again, despite sharing, if the revenue sharing is too low. It's a delicate balance if they try to shoot for the minimum required sharing percentage.

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Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-04-2013 at 11:57 AM. Reason: clarifcation
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01-04-2013, 11:54 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
Haha nice, you probable haven't been following this closely if you don't remember Bettman's infamous December presser. And it's not even the only time the NHL threw a hissy fit after the PA refuses to unilaterally accept the NHL latest's "best offer that won't get better".
Agreed. How people can't see that both sides have acted the same way is beyond me. This has become like a political discussion with every thing being black and white.

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01-04-2013, 11:54 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It wasn't dramatic at all.. it was replying to several months of melodramatic people claiming the PA is solely to blame and Fehr is the devil.

You cannot compare a typical business to a professional sports team. Soccer, the most popular sport in the world has the most successful teams operating at a loss... the ownership is seen as a hobby and not a business. In the NHL the majority of teams do make a profit. The successful ones make a HUGE profit. An actor doesn't suffer if he does his job well but the movie he plays in loses money (unless he agreed to such terms). Similarly the players in professional sports do not suffer if they happen to play for a team that cannot make it's business work.
The majority of the teams make a profit? Even if that is the case...which I don't believe btw, is that not the main point of a being in business? Should the teams not be allowed to make a profit? If they do should they be forced to give the players a higher share of HRR until they only break even?

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01-04-2013, 11:54 AM
  #618
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Yes actually in the Hospitality business you can make good money if the woman serving are beautiful enough and yes men did come in to see the woman I mean bartenders and sometimes you have to pay more to keep them on, sometimes the costs out way the benefits.

But the type of business makes no difference. Once you are a business owner turning a profit is the main goal....once you reach that goal increasing your profit is next. The best way to increase or stop losing money is to lower your labor cost. Economics 101......does it make me or any other business owner stupid because we follow the owners or are we blind? Or maybe we just understand what running a business is all about.

Just ask Hartford, Atlanta twice, Coyotes, Kansas City, Minnesota, Winnipeg ect ect...
You should note that it wasn't the players decision to put teams in horrible markets like phoenix.

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01-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
Yeah, this just confuses me. Who would they expect to get bought out? The player who has outplayed his contract?

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01-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
The NBA isn't losing money though... you seem to think that if crap teams lose money that it needs to be fixed by the players.
This sounds like a pro player response....

Fans and Players..."its a partnership", "the Players deserve the money"

Owners,"Hey players it is a partnership help fix the NHL?"

Players,"Not our job!"


Nice

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01-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
The NHLPA is a laugh.
They asked for satisfactory towels for visitor's dressing room.

FFS.

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01-04-2013, 11:55 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
Your right, make up whatever you want so you can win the argument.

The well documented NBA teams still losing money is not real.
Is this now my turn to ask "do you even read the posts"?

Like I said, it's not the players responsibility to fix a poorly run business. The majority of NBA and NHL teams make money. Just because a few teams do not does not mean the players need to the fix that. The owners of the business need to fix that just like any other business would. Marketing, promotions, creating a better product and if all else fails closing down the store and opening it up in another location.

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01-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
It wasn't dramatic at all.. it was replying to several months of melodramatic people claiming the PA is solely to blame and Fehr is the devil.

You cannot compare a typical business to a professional sports team. Soccer, the most popular sport in the world has the most successful teams operating at a loss... the ownership is seen as a hobby and not a business. In the NHL the majority of teams do make a profit. The successful ones make a HUGE profit. An actor doesn't suffer if he does his job well but the movie he plays in loses money (unless he agreed to such terms). Similarly the players in professional sports do not suffer if they happen to play for a team that cannot make it's business work.
You mean they can't make it work because player costs are to high?

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Old
01-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by The Brovalchuk View Post
Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice
Players ask for compliance buyouts. NHL agrees to 2. PA apparently upset now GMs would use buyouts to shed contracts they regret.Makes sense

https://twitter.com/TGfireandice/sta...53085909307392

This about sums up everything.
I didn't think you needed a college degree to know its business, it's not personal.

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01-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
You mean when he was pissed Fehr went before camera's and lied to fans/media about how close a deal was?

He had every right to be pissed and so did every writter/fan
I never said he didn't have a right to be pissed. And the players had the right to be pissed that the NHL tried to weaken the penalties for not complying with HRR at the last minute and Daly's hill they will die on nonsense. Again. look at both sides.

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