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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part XI: The "Please make it stop" edition.

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Old
01-04-2013, 01:18 PM
  #376
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Honestly it's been clear that this has been an ego driven pissing contest since the first offer & response over the summer.

Sadly I have very little faith that after getting this far, the two sides will suddenly come to their senses.

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01-04-2013, 01:19 PM
  #377
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It's easy to paint the picture to blame one side.

Everyone needs to step back and realize how wrong both sides have been this entire time.
Yes. Both sides have blundered hugely. I am afraid that what it will take to get a deal done is having the whole thing on the knife edge of going away entirely. It seems to me that that is the point when you get some common ground and genuine good will between the parties. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. It would not surprise me at all to see the two sides completely screw this up.

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01-04-2013, 01:19 PM
  #378
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Ok lets see what everyone thinks about this:

NHL wants 60 million--PA wants we think 65 million,

No one wants to split the difference even though at 50% split the moneys there.

What about a luxury tax something like baseball where there's a hard cap(lets say 65 million)that any team signing or that has signed players has to pay.

Cap floor of 44 million
NHL cap of 60 million
Team(luxury cap)of 65 million

Any team that goes over the 60 million mark has to let's say 10% of the players signed contact--IE player signs for 1 million 100,000 goes to the teams at the cap floor.

Max any team can go is 65 million.

Sound good or I'm I missing the boat of this whole thing--it only been what 105 days or so.

Just an opinion don't kill me if you hate it--looking for answer's in the rabbit hole.

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01-04-2013, 01:22 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by howztheglass View Post
Ok lets see what everyone thinks about this:

NHL wants 60 million--PA wants we think 65 million,

No one wants to split the difference even though at 50% split the moneys there.

What about a luxury tax something like baseball where there's a hard cap(lets say 65 million)that any team signing or that has signed players has to pay.

Cap floor of 44 million
NHL cap of 60 million
Team(luxury cap)of 65 million

Any team that goes over the 60 million mark has to let's say 10% of the players signed contact--IE player signs for 1 million 100,000 goes to the teams at the cap floor.

Max any team can go is 65 million.

Sound good or I'm I missing the boat of this whole thing--it only been what 105 days or so.

Just an opinion don't kill me if you hate it--looking for answer's in the rabbit hole.
A creative and fair suggestion that is good for the league.

So they will never go for it.

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01-04-2013, 01:26 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by howztheglass View Post
Ok lets see what everyone thinks about this:

NHL wants 60 million--PA wants we think 65 million,

No one wants to split the difference even though at 50% split the moneys there.

What about a luxury tax something like baseball where there's a hard cap(lets say 65 million)that any team signing or that has signed players has to pay.

Cap floor of 44 million
NHL cap of 60 million
Team(luxury cap)of 65 million

Any team that goes over the 60 million mark has to let's say 10% of the players signed contact--IE player signs for 1 million 100,000 goes to the teams at the cap floor.

Max any team can go is 65 million.

Sound good or I'm I missing the boat of this whole thing--it only been what 105 days or so.

Just an opinion don't kill me if you hate it--looking for answer's in the rabbit hole.
I've been preaching luxury tax for a while now, but it's pretty clear the NHL will never go for it. This is a great solution for teams who want to (and can) spend, while also benefiting the teams towards the bottom of the league who need to be more budgeted by getting more in revenue sharing.

Like HatTrick Swayze said, it's a smart solution that works for all parties. So it makes no sense that they'd go for it.

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01-04-2013, 01:37 PM
  #381
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My 2 cents: Bettman says things that anger players. Fehr does things that anger league/owners. Get over it, be adults and negotiate.

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01-04-2013, 01:40 PM
  #382
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And what should they basing the 50% off of? A half season?
Thats what escrow s for. After the season they add up revenue and give or take for 50%. They are guessing right now what a good cap figure will be. Floor is set, gary won't budge on the ceiling. Ceiling could be $100m, doesn't mean the pa will get a penny more than 50%.

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01-04-2013, 01:58 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
A creative and fair suggestion that is good for the league.

So they will never go for it.
I know--it's almost to good to be true.

But I agree I can't see both the NHL and PA agreeing.

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01-04-2013, 02:01 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
I've been preaching luxury tax for a while now, but it's pretty clear the NHL will never go for it. This is a great solution for teams who want to (and can) spend, while also benefiting the teams towards the bottom of the league who need to be more budgeted by getting more in revenue sharing.

Like HatTrick Swayze said, it's a smart solution that works for all parties. So it makes no sense that they'd go for it.
Fair is fair right--who do think would be the one to turn it down.

League gets want they want and the players get what they want.

If MLB can do it there's no reaon the NHL can't.

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01-04-2013, 02:08 PM
  #385
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My take is owners are more than happy with 48 games. Best bang for your buck considering regular season to post season ratio. Players lose more than half their checks. So Gary is playing games until the deadline, maneuvering and calculating to see what the union gives up next. Players buy the contract cap concept, owners "concede" a player funded pension or a inter owner issue like buyouts. Players will have to surrender a year of free agency to get a transition cap next year that works foe half the league. Some insane swap. Where ever the ball is at the deadline is where Gary will stop.

We were only avoiding a lockout by accepting the first offer. Any acceptance in part was pocketed and held for the deadline. We saw it in '04 and even with the decerification deadline. Outside of full capitulation, Gary was playing the game of chicken with some cheesy attacks on Fehr and attempts to divide the union.

Even now, people are accepting that this lockout is a failure in its aim after a few seasons. The bottom will drown in cap floors. Another lockout with negative results, 0-3 for Bettman. Never had a clean victory, never plugged one hole without ripping open two more. King of blunders and if left yo his own devices will expand again.

The small teams will never
compromise with the rest, be it luxury tax or transition rules. The big markets prop up the bad and get screwed with this low cap. Its a defacto dispersal draft. Zero consideration for he millions in charity funds. Any answer must be competitive parity with revenue sharing. Its a skill league and they have a handicapping philosophy. Restrict talent and success. Trapezoids and loser points. The other leagues protect and emphasize skill. The 25% majority punishes it.

Now we see some exposed lies and misreporting of revenues... the foundation of this lockout. Its a farce. One day we will see the full extent. Maybe with the next lockout in 8 years people will call out the owners and maybe Bettman will finally be done. I know I put myself on a ton of **** lists here but its never been personal for me. Players keep getting crapped on and fans gratefully eat heaping piles of B.S. from the owners. I can only say we will all see the truth one day.

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01-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by howztheglass View Post
Fair is fair right--who do think would be the one to turn it down.

League gets want they want and the players get what they want.

If MLB can do it there's no reaon the NHL can't.
They have a similar monetary disparity. Bettman and the bottom are hung up on competitive balance. Install a 50% majority in the B.O.G. and you will see some compromise instead of hostage tactics.

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01-04-2013, 02:44 PM
  #387
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IMO the league expanded into areas it should have never been in--particularly in the south and southwest. These teams are a drag on everyone else but they're the basis of the legacy that Bettman is determined to build around himself. One day this putz is going to be elected to the HOF. There's no good reason why this season is on the verge of blowing up--or why the most mismanaged franchises hold all the leverage on whether or not there is a season or not. Can't fill their buildings, don't draft well or develop their prospects, get screwed in trades, always trying to be as cheap as possible--no history for the half of building that comes out to see them to fall back on-no nothing. There are several teams that fit that definition and we'd be better off without them.

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01-04-2013, 03:02 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
IMO the league expanded into areas it should have never been in--particularly in the south and southwest. These teams are a drag on everyone else but they're the basis of the legacy that Bettman is determined to build around himself. One day this putz is going to be elected to the HOF. There's no good reason why this season is on the verge of blowing up--or why the most mismanaged franchises hold all the leverage on whether or not there is a season or not. Can't fill their buildings, don't draft well or develop their prospects, get screwed in trades, always trying to be as cheap as possible--no history for the half of building that comes out to see them to fall back on-no nothing. There are several teams that fit that definition and we'd be better off without them.
It's the truth. There really shouldn't be teams in Arizona, Florida, Texas. There's no need to saturate the LA market with two teams.

But then you get this argument which is, look at this years USA roster for the WJC and the states they represent.

Illinois (2)
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania (2)
Texas
Ohio (4)
Minnesota (2)
Michigan (4)
Florida
Wisconsin (2)
New Jersey
New York
California
Massachusetts

That's Bettman's legacy.

Move the game north. The Canadian dollar is strong again, throw a team in Quebec when they get a new arena. Milauwakee might be a bit saturated, but I believe an NHL team would do well. Throw a team in Seattle when they get their arena.

There are untapped markets that would benefit the NHL, but that's not what Bettman's legacy is.

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01-04-2013, 03:17 PM
  #389
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Even though it would go against what I want emotionally (which is to have my Rangers back playing on MSG ice in 2 weeks), i'm at the point where the two sides have made such a mockery of the game, that they deserve to lose the season, fans and possibly the leagues footing among the major sports.

Newsflash people, no one cares about hockey in the greater scheme of things - and these idiots are doing everything in their power, specifically Bettman, to drive that home even more. I feel like the outrage that will commence from the diehards will be directed at Bettman and he deserves it. What he doesnt deserve is any satisfaction of finally getting an agreement and basking in the glory of "saving the season for the fans", because he will most certainly spin in a way that makes it sound like the NHL and the owners bent over backwards to get a deal done.

I'm fed up with this ****. Go ahead and cancel it. Finally having a decent Rangers squad was too good to be true anyway.

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01-04-2013, 03:36 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by howztheglass View Post
Fair is fair right--who do think would be the one to turn it down.

League gets want they want and the players get what they want.

If MLB can do it there's no reaon the NHL can't.
They have a similar monetary disparity. Bettman and the bottom are hung up on competitive balance. Install a 50% majority in the B.O.G. and you will see some compromise instead of hostage tactics.

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01-04-2013, 03:36 PM
  #391
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Even though it would go against what I want emotionally (which is to have my Rangers back playing on MSG ice in 2 weeks), i'm at the point where the two sides have made such a mockery of the game, that they deserve to lose the season, fans and possibly the leagues footing among the major sports.

Newsflash people, no one cares about hockey in the greater scheme of things - and these idiots are doing everything in their power, specifically Bettman, to drive that home even more. I feel like the outrage that will commence from the diehards will be directed at Bettman and he deserves it. What he doesnt deserve is any satisfaction of finally getting an agreement and basking in the glory of "saving the season for the fans", because he will most certainly spin in a way that makes it sound like the NHL and the owners bent over backwards to get a deal done.

I'm fed up with this ****. Go ahead and cancel it. Finally having a decent Rangers squad was too good to be true anyway.
As much as I have similar feelings as you...the Rangers have more to lose than any other team if the season is lost. After years of building a team the right way they are on the cusp of a championship, with a core that can take a couple of runs at it prior to cap restraints necessitating change. Couple that with the fact our 1st round pick is not ours, what would most likely have been a very late first rounder could end up being a lot higher if there is no season...which would really put an exclamation point on a disastrous year. So I must disagree...DO NOT CANCEL IT. Get a deal done and drop the puck. As Rangers fans we have too much at stake.

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01-04-2013, 03:48 PM
  #392
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Would teams in this league prefer no season to the rangers in the finals? Serious question. Big revenue pushes the cap up. Puts pressure on the atlantic division GMs, driving up free agent prices.

Ironic. We had TB and calgary before the 2nd lockout. Carolina on their way. The last cba gave tremendous advantages to the big markets. They could use their money creatively (facilities, cheat contracts, staff) and we are seeing big markets thrive now: Detroit as always, NY, chi, LA, phi, bos, van. All this tinkering with the system will produce unpredictable results.

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01-04-2013, 04:25 PM
  #393
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As much as I have similar feelings as you...the Rangers have more to lose than any other team if the season is lost. After years of building a team the right way they are on the cusp of a championship, with a core that can take a couple of runs at it prior to cap restraints necessitating change. Couple that with the fact our 1st round pick is not ours, what would most likely have been a very late first rounder could end up being a lot higher if there is no season...which would really put an exclamation point on a disastrous year. So I must disagree...DO NOT CANCEL IT. Get a deal done and drop the puck. As Rangers fans we have too much at stake.
How would getting a higher first round pick position be a bad thing? Maybe i misread that section...

Of course I want to see hockey. We've waited too long for a team like this not to compete, even in a shortened season (which I believe this team's style is better suited for compared to other teams).

But my disdain for the fact that we are in yet another labor dispute, and could lose yet another full season, almost forces me to think that the only way to rid ourselves of what is the closest thing to a singular reason why things are so ****ed up – Gary Bettman – is to lose this season and maybe just maybe he will go away because of it, somehow.

But even thats a ****ing pipedream.

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01-04-2013, 04:27 PM
  #394
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I'm fed up with this ****. Go ahead and cancel it.
I'm feeling much the same way. Practice for the 24H @ Daytona started today, Dakar Rally starts tomorrow. I no longer need a winter distraction now that the racing season is here again.

I do think you're more likely to see a fan backlash at ownership if you get a 1/2 season though. You're going to get STH's refusing to pay for a 48 game package. You're going to get CI subscribers telling InDemand it's not worth the money. The pain of what we've been through is fresh in our minds and it's going to be easier to WANT to stick it to them just to make a statement by not buying a single game ticket, article of merchandise, etc. Let them play to a few empty buildings and think about the choices they've made.

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01-04-2013, 04:33 PM
  #395
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It's so over.

After reading the articles that Spector & Brooks wrote today it's very clear that it's over. There will not be a season, frankly this is all on the leauge & Bettman. Bettman has played Fehr like a fiddle, Like an Ali rope-a-dope & some how Fehr comes out looking like the bad guy.

The PA has been more than fair in accepting concesions & have given a lot. The revenue drop from 57% to 50% was enough for me to see that these guys wanted to get a deal done but. Bettman & the Board of Govenors have done everything in their power to stone wall & side step a deal that would be fair & balanced to everyone. The owners can't control themselves they continue to offer out contracts they know are bad thus violating the first rule of business.

Owners blame everyone but themsleves, the blame the palyers, the PA, the agents but never ever themselves. The owners & Bettman as their lacky took this season away from us & the somewhat bright future of this once great game is a dim speck of light off in the distance & fading fast.

Scary thing is that this mess really could really drag on for two years as some have predicted.

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01-04-2013, 04:34 PM
  #396
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I'm feeling much the same way. Practice for the 24H @ Daytona started today, Dakar Rally starts tomorrow. I no longer need a winter distraction now that the racing season is here again.

I do think you're more likely to see a fan backlash at ownership if you get a 1/2 season though. You're going to get STH's refusing to pay for a 48 game package. You're going to get CI subscribers telling InDemand it's not worth the money. The pain of what we've been through is fresh in our minds and it's going to be easier to WANT to stick it to them just to make a statement by not buying a single game ticket, article of merchandise, etc. Let them play to a few empty buildings and think about the choices they've made.
I wish that were the case. I'm not a STH, but if I was i wouldnt want them this year and next. Its hard from a tradition perspective if you or your family has held seats for years and just give up on it, but this has all the makings of a screw job if we do get a 48 game schedule.

Unfortunately I dont see enough STH's doing that and thats really the only thing that will make a difference really. I personally wont go to any games this year. Ill watch on TV and pay my insane Cablevision bill but I wont go. But youre right. Empty buildings for the first 20 games or so will be what i takes to actually get their attention. But that will never happen. Even if its one night where the fans go on "strike", the owners will have a good laugh once they start pouring in the following night.

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01-04-2013, 04:37 PM
  #397
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Did anyone hear Ron Maclean on Sirius xm radio 15 min ago say that the deal was done?

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01-04-2013, 04:43 PM
  #398
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Did anyone hear Ron Maclean on Sirius xm radio 15 min ago say that the deal was done?
How funny would that be if it was true after I spent 15 minutes writing my previous post.

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01-04-2013, 04:45 PM
  #399
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After reading the articles that Spector & Brooks wrote today it's very clear that it's over. There will not be a season, frankly this is all on the leauge & Bettman. Bettman has played Fehr like a fiddle, Like an Ali rope-a-dope & some how Fehr comes out looking like the bad guy.

The PA has been more than fair in accepting concesions & have given a lot. The revenue drop from 57% to 50% was enough for me to see that these guys wanted to get a deal done but. Bettman & the Board of Govenors have done everything in their power to stone wall & side step a deal that would be fair & balanced to everyone. The owners can't control themselves they continue to offer out contracts they know are bad thus violating the first rule of business.

Owners blame everyone but themsleves, the blame the palyers, the PA, the agents but never ever themselves. The owners & Bettman as their lacky took this season away from us & the somewhat bright future of this once great game is a dim speck of light off in the distance & fading fast.

Scary thing is that this mess really could really drag on for two years as some have predicted.
You paint a sad, sad picture my friend - watercolors and brushes supplied by the very league we love to watch.

How disheartening.

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01-04-2013, 05:04 PM
  #400
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Free agency, arb remains same but with cap lowering #NHLPA still fighting hard to lose #NHL rights to walk away from awards #stillmanyissues

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